Two-Handed Vs. Dual-Wield

• Kaeporo wrote on 2010-12-06 02:27
  There's some really good stuff in there, +Rep
  
  1. In the section that makes note of the advantages provided by having increased minimum damage you should make the reader aware of the fact that critical bonus damage consists entirely of modified maximum damage.
  
  2. Also, I don't think the Sword of Elsinore can be duel wielded.
  
  3. Lastly, perhaps you should mention weapon masteries?
• pataterose wrote on 2010-12-06 02:46

  2. Also, I don't think the Sword of Elsinore can be duel wielded.

  
  
  it has been confirmed that it can in another thread...
• frozenwilderness wrote on 2010-12-06 10:58

  Quote from Zid;238462:

  I didn't want to compare Windmill and Smash utilities because that's a whole other guide to work with, so I leave that to the readers' preferences. I know Windmill hits multiple targets and ignore Protection for Critical, but for the sake of getting the guide's point across, I limited the skill's usage to be against one target, and ignored Critical altogether.
  
  Also, dual wield being the more practical of the two styles... Well, I could say the same for two-handed. Both can use Windmill and Smash. It's just, one style will best the other in one skill. Since both styles can use Smash/Windmill and is good at one of those skills, both styles are often of equal practicality in my opinion. I'm sure the majority of the Mabinogi community doesn't agree with me on that, and because of that, I avoided saying, in the guide, which style is more practical. Or even more versatile, for that matter.
  
  I think the best way I can give this viewpoint is to compare Elf Magnum Shot/Crash Shot and Giant Smash/Windmill. Sure, Crash Shot seems more practical(?) than Elf Magnum Shot, but that is not the case in reality. The same reasoning can be used for Windmill and Giant Smash.

  Yep, personally I prefer wm over smash, just because I really only find smash useful when you're facing a single enemy for the most part, which isn't the case for the majority of SMs/dungeons. However, it is quite useful for some bosses, so I think it really just depends on what the player's focus is. On the other hand, I don't really think elf crash shot vs elf magnum is equivalent to comparing wm and smash.. similar maybe, but not equivalent, due to the fact that crash shot is the one with longer load time, and magnum is absolutely spammable and loads even faster than wm.
• Zid wrote on 2010-12-06 15:24

  Quote from Kaeporo;238521:

  There's some really good stuff in there, +Rep
  
  1. In the section that makes note of the advantages provided by having increased minimum damage you should make the reader aware of the fact that critical bonus damage consists entirely of modified maximum damage.
  
  2. Also, I don't think the Sword of Elsinore can be duel wielded.
  
  3. Lastly, perhaps you should mention weapon masteries?

  
  
  1. I will do that, thanks.
  
  2. I'm sure it can be dual wielded. It's been confirmed before, and the wiki makes no mention against it.
  
  3. I will add Sword/Blunt Masteries once G13 gets around and I calculate it alongside practical levels of Strength and enchants.
  
  

  Quote from frozenwilderness;238775:

  Yep, personally I prefer wm over smash, just because I really only find smash useful when you're facing a single enemy for the most part, which isn't the case for the majority of SMs/dungeons. However, it is quite useful for some bosses, so I think it really just depends on what the player's focus is. On the other hand, I don't really think elf crash shot vs elf magnum is equivalent to comparing wm and smash.. similar maybe, but not equivalent, due to the fact that crash shot is the one with longer load time, and magnum is absolutely spammable and loads even faster than wm.

  
  
  Agreed.
  
  EDIT:
  
  [SIZE="3"]Guide Update[/SIZE]:
  
  

  • Greatly expanded Section [ff1] to include average damage with Critical, average damage of Smash, average damage with Critical of Smash, and how user base damage affects Smash average damage.
• Cardplayer wrote on 2010-12-14 04:19
  something you might want to add in htere... idk xD
  
  but you also have to understand duelwielding dings twice ;D
  
  that is it activates the defence and protection twice... while single only activates it once. doesnt apply to smash or wm (i think?) but still apllies to weapons in general x3
  
  my 2 cents
• Hei wrote on 2010-12-14 17:26

  Quote from Cardplayer;247395:

  something you might want to add in htere... idk xD
  
  but you also have to understand duelwielding dings twice ;D
  
  that is it activates the defence and protection twice... while single only activates it once. doesnt apply to smash or wm (i think?) but still apllies to weapons in general x3
  
  my 2 cents

  
  
  The damage reduced from activating defense matters a little but it doesn't matter for protection, since it's based on a percentage of the damage you do.
  Unless you were talking about the chances of critical, which does change because it's 2 hits vs 1.
  
  Though normal hitting is rarely done except to finish mobs so that doesn't really matter for most people.
• Cardplayer wrote on 2010-12-15 01:04
  i know it doesnt matter to smashers and stuff im just saying if we actually look at "which ones is better" its something to consider, mages for instance arent going to load a skill if a monsters so close they have to resort to mele. and ya your right protection doesnt matter, except for crit, where depending on the prot of the monster could go for a higher crit weapon
• EndlessDreams wrote on 2010-12-15 05:52

  Quote from Cardplayer;248050:

  i know it doesnt matter to smashers and stuff im just saying if we actually look at "which ones is better" its something to consider, mages for instance arent going to load a skill if a monsters so close they have to resort to mele. and ya your right protection doesnt matter, except for crit, where depending on the prot of the monster could go for a higher crit weapon

  
  
  Well, for majority of the melee people, it is a combination of smash/wm spam for maximum damage. Both protection and defense of a monster will take off the same amount of damage for Smash/WM.
  
  It is usually un-wise to normal attack a monster as you get into higher dungeon for fear of PDs, not to mention you won't deal much damage compared to Smash/WM.
• Cardplayer wrote on 2010-12-15 22:06

  Quote from EndlessDreams;248366:

  Well, for majority of the melee people, it is a combination of smash/wm spam for maximum damage. Both protection and defense of a monster will take off the same amount of damage for Smash/WM.
  
  It is usually un-wise to normal attack a monster as you get into higher dungeon for fear of PDs, not to mention you won't deal much damage compared to Smash/WM.

  
  
  i know all this im just saying if we are really comparing which one is better its something to consider Dx
• TheKartheus wrote on 2010-12-22 19:06
  Seeing as the final stats had the DSK ego win very small, and that was with 999 base strength, I hardly think 2-handed swords are worth it. With that set you gave (which by the way is not the best set I have found) it would take another 320-some damage to have them do equal damage. This requires more base strength than possible, even in g13. For humans, 2-handed swords become almost obsolete.
  
  I would like to point out, however, that when supergrades come out (upgrades AFTER gem upgrades) you can increase critical damage by up to 62% on a highlander claymore. This means that instead of doing 2.5x damage, you would do 3.12x damage, which makes the highlander claymore much more usefull than a 2h ego, assuming you have good critical rate.
• Zid wrote on 2010-12-22 23:34
  I plan to include R/S upgrades into the non-ego damage comparison, once after either people can write down the results, or I do the upgrades and recording myself on KR test.
  
  It's true though, the R/S upgrades change damage dynamics of every weapon, so I'm definitely going to include that later on. I'll get some G13 enchants into the mix too.
• Justified wrote on 2010-12-22 23:47
  All the ego comments have been biased saying "this is useless because of over-upgrades" when actually all egos will be useless.
  
  If R upgrades stack when dual wielding, then 1H Sword egos will be rendered useless as well, not just 2H Sword egos. Multiplying damage is almost always better than adding damage.
• TheKartheus wrote on 2010-12-23 05:13

  Quote from Justified;258123:

  All the ego comments have been biased saying "this is useless because of over-upgrades" when actually all egos will be useless.
  
  If R upgrades stack when dual wielding, then 1H Sword egos will be rendered useless as well, not just 2H Sword egos. Multiplying damage is almost always better than adding damage.

  
  The problem is, on war swords currently the most you can get is +42% crit damage if I remember right. Also, you would have to dual wield those in order to keep the same +crit, having one with full overgrades and one without would give less of a bonus.
  
  Assuming dual wield war sword with best enchants/overgrades the crit smash damage would be this (120+120)*5*2.92 = 3504
  Dual weilding a maxed out bsword + Elsinore sword is (189+190)*5*2.5 = 4737
  Of course, the minimum damage on the war swords is barely over 0 with the enchants, further helping ego/elsinore sword.
  
  In g13 dual weilding becomes the way to deal out the most damage, even with smash. This also means that as of g13, ego bswords become less usefull, as the crit from a muramasa ego will be quite usefull when performing smashes, which was before reserved for 2h swords.
• Justified wrote on 2010-12-23 12:36

  Quote from TheKartheus;258583:

  The problem is, on war swords currently the most you can get is +42% crit damage if I remember right. Also, you would have to dual wield those in order to keep the same +crit, having one with full overgrades and one without would give less of a bonus.
  
  Assuming dual wield war sword with best enchants/overgrades the crit smash damage would be this (120+120)*5*2.92 = 3504
  Dual weilding a maxed out bsword + Elsinore sword is (189+190)*5*2.5 = 4737
  Of course, the minimum damage on the war swords is barely over 0 with the enchants, further helping ego/elsinore sword.
  
  In g13 dual weilding becomes the way to deal out the most damage, even with smash. This also means that as of g13, ego bswords become less usefull, as the crit from a muramasa ego will be quite usefull when performing smashes, which was before reserved for 2h swords.

  
  
  That actually make more sense. I was assuming that the crit boosts were like a "status" bonus or something, so dual-wielding them would produce +84% crit. The way you describe it is more like a weapon-only effect like Stiff or something.
  
  Taking the above list of enchanted items and substituting Confident Earthquake plus Steel Needle Peaceful, we get around 95 Max. If we use 600 Str as a rough guideline (high-end total in trans), then we come up with...
  
  Base damage
  600 * 0.4 = 240
  240 + 95 = 335
  
  Dual Warswords (Willow-Horn)
  335 + 120 + 120 = 570
  575 * 5 * 2.92 = 8,395 (88.97%)
  
  Bastard Ego + Elsinore
  335 + 179 + 180 = 714
  714 * 5 * 2.5 = 8,925 (94.60%)
  
  Highlander Claymore (Necro-Croc)
  335 + 169 = 504
  504 * 6 * 3.12 = 9,434 (100.00%)
  
  Dustin Sword Ego
  335 + 243 = 578
  578 * 6 * 2.5 = 8,670 (91.90%)
  
  Highlander Claymore > Bastard Ego + Elsinore > Dustin Ego > Dual Warswords
  
  Correct me if I'm wrong, because I wasn't expecting that either. Though it seems like a non-Ego 2H sword is better than a 1H Ego paired with the famed Elsinore by a significant 500 damage. It still has it's drawbacks of low critical and lower Windmill damage, but the point is that 2H swords will still be a viable form of combat even when G13 comes to add all this confusion into the mix.
  
  PS.
  I forgot to include the Highlander gem upgrade, which is another 4Max (getting multiplied to ~76 damage) but it already wins so I'll refrain from re-re-re-editting.
  
  PSS.
  Since the Sword of Elsinore requires the Rosemary Gloves, it loses out on Steel Needle Peaceful. If it's able to be enchanted, the best enchants I know of that goes on Cloth would be Corundum Burst Knight for a change of -12 Max (multiplied to -150 damage) and -10 Crit. That means that the Crit Smash damage gap is now roughly 725 damage. The average Crit between Bastard Ego and Elsinore is 34.5, reduced to 24.5 considering the loss of Steel Needle. Still beats the Highlander's 10 Crit though.
  
  PSSS.
  A regular Claymore can be upgraded to 30 Crit while maintaining 163 Max. This gives it 6.5 more Crit than the Bastard Ego + Elsinore, while still having a lead of ~620 damage Crit Smash.
  
  
  Okay srsly done now lol.
• ikotomi wrote on 2010-12-25 06:48

  Quote from Justified;259064:

  PSS.
  Since the Sword of Elsinore requires the Rosemary Gloves, it loses out on Steel Needle Peaceful. If it's able to be enchanted, the best enchants I know of that goes on Cloth would be Corundum Burst Knight for a change of -12 Max (multiplied to -150 damage) and -10 Crit. That means that the Crit Smash damage gap is now roughly 725 damage. The average Crit between Bastard Ego and Elsinore is 34.5, reduced to 24.5 considering the loss of Steel Needle. Still beats the Highlander's 10 Crit though.

  
  
  Highlander after upgrades should have over 30 crit though, so it's even better. I think we've already determined that it's broken one way or another though.