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Taycat wrote on 2010-12-14 17:37
So the current total is...
everyone - scythe
1 person - staff
Lol.
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PandaSong wrote on 2010-12-14 19:39
We've had a few other people in other threads state they were Staff. :P I suspect they just kind of get bored of stating that over and over again.
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Kansi wrote on 2010-12-14 19:42
I went scythe because I like scythes. That's all.
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xJac wrote on 2010-12-14 19:46
You can go either. Personally I would go staff, but that's because I already have a Lann.
Just make sure you have an idea how other classes work if you're going for staff. It's not support anymore if the staff doesn't know what's best for the team.
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whocares8128 wrote on 2010-12-14 19:46
Well personally, I see both styles have their merits.
Staff:
- Really high burst damage (Double Firebolt + Double Blind Arrow, can take out more enemies at once)
- Can melee at any time without worrying about stamina (in fact stamina regenerates while using melee attacks)
- The only attack that will drain all remaining stamina is Eagle Talon, so it's rare to be bent over and vulnerable
- Easier to stay just out of harm's way while attacking
- Can act as support by healing party members in 2 different ways (Free heals too!)
- Pure mage combat
Scythe:
- More damage over time
- Much quicker to farm ergs/remnants when breaking everything is needed
- Bloody Thread makes it easier to take out pesky archers that don't want to walk into a Firebolt (i.e. no cluster of mobs is required)
- Super dodge skill
- None of the scythe skills require an item slot, freeing up space for other things
- Cool snap kills
Note: This list isn't necessarily complete and simply represents what came into mind while posting this.
I use both scythe and staff, though mainly staff.
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xJac wrote on 2010-12-14 20:27
Quote from whocares8128;247800:
Well personally, I see both styles have their merits.
Staff:
- Really high burst damage (Double Firebolt + Double Blind Arrow, can take out more enemies at once)
- except firebolt takes a while to cast (boss can move away), and blind arrow requires sp (which is very hard for staff evie to gather)
- Can melee at any time without worrying about stamina (in fact stamina regenerates while using melee attacks)
-at boss, the staff damage is too little and you are also putting yourself in danger. at mob, other class just trash through it I don't think you will be able to cast stamina when fully recharged.
- The only attack that will drain all remaining stamina is Eagle Talon, so it's rare to be bent over and vulnerable
-Magic arrow and firebolt drains a lot stamina too. When you cast those, and the boss decided to run after you, you're left with little stamina, not mentioning the hop is pathetic.
- Easier to stay just out of harm's way while attacking
-Again, staff has a pathetic dodging mechanism. The boss usually runs around, keeping a distance from it won't help if it decided to attack you.
- Can act as support by healing party members in 2 different ways (Free heals too!)
-Yes, the ability to heal others while they just focus on damaging is nice. But the hp healed is a fixed amount, so it's going to be more useless as player level goes up.
- Pure mage combat
-Yes
- Regeneration gives free hp regen. But seeing staff already have two heals it seems redundant. Not mentioning the fact that SP is hard to gather for staff.
Scythe:
- More damage over time
-Not just more, a lot more, scythe is two times or three times faster.
- Much quicker to farm ergs/remnants when breaking everything is needed
-....
- Bloody Thread makes it easier to take out pesky archers that don't want to walk into a Firebolt (i.e. no cluster of mobs is required)
-Yes. MoD and Bloody Thread has a high AoE range, higher than that of Firebolt.
- Super dodge skill
-Yes, only reason it's inferior to Lann's dash is stamina cost and doesn't have the ability to smash attack right after blink.
- None of the scythe skills require an item slot, freeing up space for other things
-Yes. Quite a rather important aspect in the game.
- Cool snap kills
-...
- Insane reaper gives everyone in the party bonus stamina regen. Very powerful skill.
I added comments in bold.
One thing I want to say: Half of the new evie users will go scythe as soon as it's available, most of the rest will switch to scythe after playing staff for a bit longer, only a few will stay staff. The reason being: pathetic dodging mechanism, weak dps, weak heal, and sometimes actually dragging the team instead of helping it.
Edit: these can all be overcome if you got the skill.
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whocares8128 wrote on 2010-12-14 21:01
Staff points:
1. It is not "very hard" to gather SP as a staff Evie. It is difficult with a group that just wants to plow through mobs (e.g. with spear Lanns and Scythe Evies). I only have trouble gathering SP in groups like these. I have the same trouble with my Fiona. For a staff Evie, the single best method to gain SP is to Firebolt a group. For Fiona, it's to counterattack a group. Both methods require waiting a bit for the mobs to come to you, giving a moment for them to come together.
With a decent-sized group, just 2 Firebolts will give me enough SP to use Blind Arrow.
The only way it is "hard" is if you party with idiots (there are many out there). It is similarly difficult to build a fire and get the buff, when half of your party rushes out to spawn the boss, or breaks all the wood nearby.
2. I do not recommend using regular melee attacks on the boss as they don't stun, which is the only reason I use them any other time (while letting my stamina regenerate).
3. As far as I can tell, none of the boss moves require you to run to dodge them. I can easily dodge everything the red tyrant does without ever running. The point I was making is "all remaining stamina". As long as you can move, it's possible to dodge; when you can only crawl (and can't even bunny hop), then you're in trouble.
4. If you can't dodge the boss attacks, that's your failure. I'm sorry if you find the game difficult.
5. For the record, I think regeneration is fairly worthless, and I only ever use it because there is a title for using it 500 times.
Scythe points:
1. I didn't feel the need to quantify the difference in damage output and I'm not sure where you come up with 2-3 times as much.
2. Yes, Bloody Thread can reach mobs (for selection) outside what a Firebolt would hit (immediately on skill activation). The difference is, Firebolt isn't limited on how many can be hit with the skill. I find it a bit misleading to use "AoE range" with the skill for this reason.
Other things I felt like adding:
1. The dodge mechanism for staff Evies will be much better in the future, as she gets a skill that simultaneously moves her further while damaging mobs near the "jump point".
2. Instead of wasting a Firebolt, you can always jump cancel it at any time.
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Kueh wrote on 2010-12-14 21:20
I would just like to point out that Scythes can heal themselves, and they also still have access to Erg Transformation, so they can still heal others. Just not during boss fights.
I think it all depends on your play style. I think the real winning factor for scythes for me is that I don't need to use quickslots. Mostly, I fill all my slots with effect potions, but later on, when Mana Pistol comes out, Scythes will have a real advantage in alchemy (Pistol Kit + Golem Kit + Wisp = Summoner, add Mercury and you've got a really neat situation going on.)
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PandaSong wrote on 2010-12-15 00:52
Again, why are we even arguing about Scythe/Staff skills when they're obviously meant for different situations? This is a "which do you prefer" thread, not a "why do you think this style is better". Obviously no style is better than the other. It's all in your own head that this is better, I'm sorry but it's true. :/ Also, some of you are getting your facts wrong about certain staff skills.
No offense, but this is kind of like looking at the official forums.
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xJac wrote on 2010-12-15 00:58
1. Yes, that's the whole point. You're not getting sp because the party just rushes through. Stupid, but that's how most of those parties work out there.
3. Big Brother Ebeloch, Strong Ekelch, Black Breeze, Reaper, Blood Prince, Nine Finger, Dim Gray, Singleshot, Ramapage, Fleeing King are the bosses you need sprint to dodge some moves. You can dodge Red Tyrant's every move without ever sprint? BS. Try dodging that leap after he ran right in front of you. As long as you need sprint, you need stamina.
For scythe:
1. No need to wait for firebolt cood down, or wait for stamina regen to just cast magic arrow. Most of staff's damage are burst damage, in a single shot. On trash mob it's just not going to work as many damage go into waste on a dead body. Scythe has long range for swing, highest normal attack damage, and releases. Not mentioning at the cost of two sp bar you can cast insane reaper, increasing the speed for clearing mob.
On boss it's different, Staff's burst damage can be maximized due to the hit and dodge strategy.
2. I know it only hits 4. The real difference is, trying to gather a mob into a dense group and then cast firebolt is way too slower than just madly swing your scythe through and use release to finish any left overs.
I do not discourage playing staff. But people need to realize the cons of staff before really going into it. I have many friends, who said they will stick to staff, switched to scythe later. I also have friends who know about the cons of staff, and still made one and are still playing as pure staff.
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whocares8128 wrote on 2010-12-15 06:05
Staff #3: It's just a just a step and bunny hop to the left. If he's far enough away from you, you don't even have to hop (just keep moving left).
Interestingly enough, many of the problems you have cited and what others have mentioned elsewhere regarding staff Evie are gone when you solo.
- No idiots running around killing all the mobs infront of your firebolt
- As the sole player, all the mobs come right to you, so gathering them is not an issue
- It becomes trivial to max out the SP bar a few times before the boss battle
- Golems don't interfere with the party members you don't have, but are really helpful with bosses
- No one to whine about if you're healing them too little/much
I guess staff Evie is really not for support at all, but rather soloing. :what:
P.S. I'm only kidding, PandaSong. :)
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PandaSong wrote on 2010-12-15 13:44
:( You guys have been posting on and on about Staff/Scythies over and over again whocares8128. D: And some people are getting facts wrong, it's kinda annoying having a class that can solo properly (and is good for parties, not just for supporting either) bashed without people even realizing it. I'm not saying that Staff is ZOMG the best class ever! I'm saying that they're on par with Scythies as long as you play it right. Even in a party.
The golems can be taken out when you're with another Evy (scythe or staff) or a Lann - usually not with a Fiona because they need to see what's coming. Sadly Nexon didn't think of that and made the golems a tad too big. Though I do find that I like setting them up even in a party, because if everyone but me dies.. there is something to play bait for the boss while I rez people.
Also. ._.; If you're running out of Stamina and you're not able to dodge it means you have stamina useage issues. And I can gain SP in parties, maybe not as fast as everyone else, but that's because they tend to hit creatures away from things. Which is kind of stupid, because I can actually kill them faster. OHKO anyone, instead of a combo? D: Oh and most the time? You're not casting firebolt on the trash mobs because you don't have to. You can just eagle talon a small group of them, which kills them in one hit. Or Magic Arrow the rangers or spiders, which again, kills them in one hit.
Personally, I find that I would actually do more damage in a party if I didn't have to heal other players. :/ As a Staffy, the one thing frustrating I find is that everyone whines about our damage. Yet you guys (I'm generalizing by the way on this, lol) get hit and some of us end up healing, so you don't bite the dust, instead of doing damage. And this is why I don't go with PUGs unless I have a regular group member with me. At least they understand this properly. D:
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xJac wrote on 2010-12-15 13:54
Quote from whocares8128;248378:
Staff #3: It's just a just a step and bunny hop to the left. If he's far enough away from you, you don't even have to hop (just keep moving left).
Don't you need stamina for hop? If yes, then I stand correct. And you're claiming something that can't be done. "I can easily dodge everything the red tyrant does without ever running." Sure, if you got the skill, you should always watch out for it, but have you realized what I edit? I said all these can be overcome if you got the skill.
Interestingly enough, many of the problems you have cited and what others have mentioned elsewhere regarding staff Evie are gone when you solo.
- No idiots running around killing all the mobs infront of your firebolt
- As the sole player, all the mobs come right to you, so gathering them is not an issue
- It becomes trivial to max out the SP bar a few times before the boss battle
- Golems don't interfere with the party members you don't have, but are really helpful with bosses
- No one to whine about if you're healing them too little/much
I guess staff Evie is really not for support at all, but rather soloing. :what:
P.S. I'm only kidding, PandaSong. :)
You're talking about soloing, then you should have stated that in the beginning. Informing a person is good, but not telling them everything can be very misleading, and often really bad. This is exactly what happened to my friends who thought they would stay staff. Because all the people only mentioned certain facts about it.
I am only commenting negatively at staff because the list you initially put up is very bais'd, not mentioning a lot of the cons staff have, and lightly going through advantages of scythe (highest normal attack percentile, releases, insane reaper, wide attack range, extra slots for item usage are barely or not mentioned at all), which is very important when it comes to making a person deciding his choice. I hope, by now, OP has really understand the difference between scythe and staff, if he is still deciding that is.
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Kenero wrote on 2010-12-15 14:01
Quote from PandaSong;248595:
:( You guys have been posting on and on about Staff/Scythies over and over again whocares8128. D: And some people are getting facts wrong, it's kinda annoying having a class that can solo properly (and is good for parties, not just for supporting either) bashed without people even realizing it. I'm not saying that Staff is ZOMG the best class ever! I'm saying that they're on par with Scythies as long as you play it right. Even in a party.
The golems can be taken out when you're with another Evy (scythe or staff) or a Lann - usually not with a Fiona because they need to see what's coming. Sadly Nexon didn't think of that and made the golems a tad too big. Though I do find that I like setting them up even in a party, because if everyone but me dies.. there is something to play bait for the boss while I rez people.
Also. ._.; If you're running out of Stamina and you're not able to dodge it means you have stamina useage issues. And I can gain SP in parties, maybe not as fast as everyone else, but that's because they tend to hit creatures away from things. Which is kind of stupid, because I can actually kill them faster. OHKO anyone, instead of a combo? D: Oh and most the time? You're not casting firebolt on the trash mobs because you don't have to. You can just eagle talon a small group of them, which kills them in one hit. Or Magic Arrow the rangers or spiders, which again, kills them in one hit.
Personally, I find that I would actually do more damage in a party if I didn't have to heal other players. :/ As a Staffy, the one thing frustrating I find is that everyone whines about our damage. Yet you guys (I'm generalizing by the way on this, lol) get hit and some of us end up healing, so you don't bite the dust, instead of doing damage. And this is why I don't go with PUGs unless I have a regular group member with me. At least they understand this properly. D:
People compare scythe and staffs in this thread, even though it is a "what do you prefer thread" because they want to give reason why they like it, you know, to give a background and basis and the reason they prefer it, not because it is becoming like Nexon Forums.
Personally, the reason Staff Evies aren't as popular as Scythes, even though both classes play well if used properly, is that Staff Evies have a much -much- higher learning curve to use properly than Scythes. And unfortunate it is that most players rather not spend time to have a higher learning curve character if there is a choice for an easier curve.
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whocares8128 wrote on 2010-12-15 14:56
Quote from xJac;248603:
Don't you need stamina for hop?
Jumping consumes no stamina for Evie. You actually gain stamina while doing it. The only time you can't jump is if you used up all your stamina and are "tired". For staff Evies, this is only possible if you sprint until out of stamina or used some form of eagle talon without enough stamina to have any remaining. And yes, I saw your edit, after I made my post.
Quote from xJac;248603:
You're talking about soloing, then you should have stated that in the beginning.
I only mentioned solo in my last post as a "FWIW" kind of thing. Everything else I said applies in group or solo.
@PandaSong
I understand what you're saying. I use Eagle Talon a lot on small groups too. However, when my Firebolt is ready, and I haven't filled my SP bar, I'll unleash it on any group of 3 or more (though I'd rather get a large group, like the spider spawns, even if one Magic Arrow would do the job faster). If it means I can fire off one more Blind Arrow on the boss, then it's quite worth the effort.
Really, people hitting mobs infront of a charging Firebolt is not much different than people killing a grappled mob being pulled to a wall. In the end, bad players make bad parties. There really isn't a bad class, in my opinion.