Defense vs. Protection

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jking012 wrote on 2010-12-14 19:52

Well I had just gone over something similar with protection as I wanted to see what the max protection you can get atm is and i came out with the numbers as follows: (NOTE) these are with their maxed rank 1 Protection giving skill (with enchants that I will not reveal), if you want do the research. (all protection calculations are done with enchants,Trans (skills), and equipment (shield). the rest is for you to figure out.

33% =Dark Knight's (get no Protection skills)
39% =Champ's (get 6 Protection)
51% =Beast Lords (get 18 protection)
51% =Falcon's (get 18 protection), Note 51 % is noted if they use a shield as well

I would go over more details BUT I plan to do this for myself later on, I will only tell you this, IT IS POSSIBLE

Hint* You must be under lvl 10, and have a tailored clothing for +1 prot

PS: the beast lord can also use rank 1 windguard for a capped 100 protection ^^

Quote from Jovo;247694:
When ghasts hit you for up to 5k, it doesn't matter how much defense and protection you have because you either
1)deadly
2)die

~COUGH~ 1 dmg
Jovo wrote on 2010-12-14 20:00

Quote from jking012;247803:
Well I had just gone over something similar with protection as I wanted to see what the max protection you can get atm is and i came out with the numbers as follows: (NOTE) these are with their maxed rank 1 Protection giving skill (with enchants that I will not reveal), if you want do the research. (all protection calculations are done with enchants,Trans (skills), and equipment (shield). the rest is for you to figure out.

33% =Dark Knight's (get no Protection skills)
39% =Champ's (get 6 Protection)
51% =Beast Lords (get 18 protection)
51% =Falcon's (get 18 protection), Note 51 % is noted if they use a shield as well

I would go over more details BUT I plan to do this for myself later on, I will only tell you this, IT IS POSSIBLE

Hint* You must be under lvl 10, and have a tailored clothing for +1 prot

PS: the beast lord can also use rank 1 windguard for a capped 100 protection ^^

~COUGH~ 1 dmg

People aren't gonna stay under level 10 to use golem enchant for the defense and protection...
jking012 wrote on 2010-12-14 20:01

Quote from Jovo;247809:
People aren't gonna stay under level 10 to use golem enchant for the defense and protection...

Apparently they will if their tanking peaca O_O

of course you'de have to kill yourself to stay under 10 (which yes makes it hard to use)
Jovo wrote on 2010-12-14 20:06

Quote from jking012;247811:
Apparently they will if their tanking peaca O_O

of course you'de have to kill yourself to stay under 10 (which yes makes it hard to use)

If you kill yourself to stay under 10, why bother trying to tank to stay alive? lol. Seems counterintuitive to kill yourself to stay alive if you know what I mean.
jking012 wrote on 2010-12-14 20:10

Quote from Jovo;247817:
If you kill yourself to stay under 10, why bother trying to tank to stay alive? lol. Seems counterintuitive to kill yourself to stay alive if you know what I mean.

peaca inter... its not about the kills and exp ... its more for STEEL NEEDLE at the end... am i right? lol but seriously... do you really look* to lvl in peaca int...?
you do peaca int for its rewards not exp :/

and to actually answer your question you die to stay alive to take all the aggro on yourself while party kills them loads fb w/e

and to stop all these (what i believe to be a relentless number of pointless postbacks) i posted it cause it can be done and to the Opening...
Jovo wrote on 2010-12-14 20:15

Quote from jking012;247818:
peaca inter... its not about the kills and exp ... its more for STEEL NEEDLE at the end... am i right? lol but seriously... do you really look* to lvl in peaca int...?
you do peaca int for its rewards not exp :/

and to actually answer your question you die to stay alive to take all the aggro on yourself while party kills them loads fb w/e

and to stop all these (what i believe to be a relentless number of pointless postbacks) i posted it cause it can be done and to the Opening...

Have you even done peaca inter? Whacking even ONE of these monsters will give you battle participation of 2-4k exp. That means, even if you set experience to all to finish, you will still LEVEL up. It only takes 14k exp to level up to level 10. Unless you plan on slowing down your entire party by killing yourself every room, I think it's more pertinent for everyone to go damage gear and just outright kill, because it's just faster for everyone to do so.

EDIT: Sure, it's nice to be invincible, but it's really hard to stay that way. Maybe if you were a giant and kept taunting everything it'd be slightly easier.
jking012 wrote on 2010-12-14 20:18

Quote from Jovo;247822:
Have you even done peaca inter? Whacking even ONE of these monsters will give you battle participation of 2-4k exp. That means, even if you set experience to all to finish, you will still LEVEL up. It only takes 14k exp to level up to level 10. Unless you plan on slowing down your entire party by killing yourself every room, I think it's more pertinent for everyone to go damage gear and just outright kill, because it's just faster for everyone to do so.

EDIT: Sure, it's nice to be invincible, but it's really hard to stay that way. Maybe if you were a giant and kept taunting everything it'd be slightly easier.

yes i took battle participation into concern so why stay partied?, spam taunt? do it for the rewards at the end hell i would >.>

plus either way in a duel its just fun to tank all those hits :3
though to be honest in a duel.. lots of defense to, 6 prot might be better :/
unless you duel at 100% :/ then by all means >.>
Jovo wrote on 2010-12-14 20:22

Quote from jking012;247825:
yes i took battle participation into concern so why stay partied?, spam taunt? do it for the rewards at the end hell i would >.>

Battle participation doesn't matter if you are in a party or not. The moment you whack a monster, you get battle participation exp.

And taunt wears off. I'd lol when the ghasts start destroying your party because you had a lurer inside the room as opposed to outside the room. ._.;;
Fracture wrote on 2010-12-14 20:40

Quote from frozenwilderness;247655:
But see, this is just what I don't understand. Why worry about defense at all if you're looking at endgame dungeons/pvp? If the opponent hits say, 250 damage on average, 5% protection reduces that damage by 12.5 points while if you opt for the alternative 10 defense, that damage is only reduced by.. well 10. Additionally, by adding defense, you're in effect decreasing the damage absorbed by your protection. On the other hand, if you opt for protection, not only can you increase the amount of damage deflected but you also reduce your enemy's critical chance on you. Finally, if the enemy DOES critical hit on you, that protection % will decrease the damage on you by a much greater amount than defense will, since defense only takes it down by that set amount. In a dungeon where enemies do much lower damage, you probably wouldn't be using tanking gear in the first place and you'd switch it up for a damage set instead.

Note: Def isn't jsut less effective when you get hit with a crit, it's totally ignored. Only protection reduces critical damage.
Justified wrote on 2010-12-14 20:54

Quote from Shiko;247666:
Very few monsters hit more then 150, let alone 300, including Peaca and HM Shadow missions, unless you are getting hit with a skill. I'm a squishy elf with 0 protect and like 6 def and HM shadow mission monsters do less then 80 to me unless they crit...

What missions have you been doing? Although monsters have very sporadic damage, most things hit between 50-150 against no defense. Mag and Smash crits have done like 600 damage on me. And counting Peaca, damage in there can get as high as 200-400 base damage, where a Prot build clearly has an advantage over Def builds.

Theoretically, with a good Protection set, Eclipse of Wings, and Mana Shield, you can reduce damage by over ~95% without the need for trans, Wind Guard, or any level specific enchants.
Without Demigod or Trans, it's still possible for any race to get around 40 Prot, and another ~70% Mana Shield reduction for ~82% reduction.

The reason Mana Shield is such a good substitute for imperfect tanking builds is because, in essence, it IS a high prot bonus. If it was something like -60 damage instead of a mana coefficient, it'd be far less useful.
frozenwilderness wrote on 2010-12-14 22:45

Quote from Fracture;247842:
Note: Def isn't jsut less effective when you get hit with a crit, it's totally ignored. Only protection reduces critical damage.

I'm pretty sure this is not true, where are you getting this info?

From wiki:

Defense reduces damage received by the specified amount.
* Certain skills ignore the defense stat, but not protection.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think critical hit is one of those..
Bankai231 wrote on 2010-12-14 23:09

The thing is defense is easier to get and more useful. With my rank 1 defense full val and beholder I have around 30~ defense. I also get somewhere around 5 protection. If you look at a monster doing 100 damage:

100-30= 70 Damage
100-5%(5)= 95 damage.

A 50 damage monster:
50-30= 20 damage
50- 5% (10) = 40 damage.

Most monsters do under 100 damage so unless you have like 50% protection defense is the way to go. (I dont even think you can get 50% protection)
Plus defensive imp is pretty easy to get. And some defense enchants give max damage etc. (Imp gives str. Oak Tree Gives 6 max) Unless you HATE getting crit defense is the most efficent way to go at a low level. When you max skills out and you are running hm dungeons protection becomes more useful.
frozenwilderness wrote on 2010-12-14 23:27

well my question is, why are you tanking in a dungeon where monsters do 50-100 damage? isn't it better to just kill those and not get hit?

when I think of tanking I think of dungeons like barri/rabbie adv hm where some strong explosions might be unavoidable, but I guess I'm more focused on pvp situations, where people are doing 300+ damage.
Fracture wrote on 2010-12-14 23:54

Quote from frozenwilderness;247928:
I'm pretty sure this is not true, where are you getting this info?

From wiki:

Defense reduces damage received by the specified amount.
* Certain skills ignore the defense stat, but not protection.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think critical hit is one of those..

Yes, you are wrong. Critical totally ignores defense, which is what makes it such a massive priority. It's also why criticals will, like Smash and Magnum, deal damage to monsters that have enough defense to ignore normal hits.
frozenwilderness wrote on 2010-12-14 23:59

Quote from Fracture;247977:
Yes, you are wrong. Critical totally ignores defense, which is what makes it such a massive priority. It's also why criticals will, like Smash and Magnum, deal damage to monsters that have enough defense to ignore normal hits.

I don't think so. There's a reason you're supposed to up defense but not protection when you're training for master of critical hit title.. that way the monsters will still have maximum critical chance, but they will still do 1s on you when they critical. If defense were completely ignored on a critical hit, there's no way that rats/mimics would do a 1 damage critical on you. I'm not sure where you're getting your info from but it doesn't sound like a legitimate source.

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