Fiona Sword vs. Hammer Comparison and Analysis Guide

• Kendrak wrote on 2010-12-26 06:50
  This is a guide specifically to compare sword and hammer. I will not be going too in depth about what their different attacks are. Instead, I’ll be comparing the two and their purposes.
  
  Sword I feel is a much safer option for a tanking Fiona. Stander canceling attacks takes off a huge amount of recovery for sword and keeps Fiona incredibly safe. It’s a must learn for any Fiona and absolutely essential to sword Fiona’s game. Amaranth kick is really the biggest boon to sword Fiona’s attack set because of the tremendous amount of stun it does. Generally speaking, one Amaranth kick is enough to down any mini-boss type enemy. The other great advantage to Amaranth kick is that its five hit wind up is so flexible because you can attack in any direction and stander cancel out of any of the swipes with ease to protect yourself if you’ve misjudged the timing or spacing.
  
  Hammer is a much more powerful damaging option for Fiona but also a lot riskier. Hammer attacks cannot be stander canceled (you may do a stander after the recovery of the swing but it does not in fact reduce the recovery time like with swords). This puts hammer Fiona’s at a much greater risk than sword in that the timing for executing any of her attacks must be correct or else you’re going to eat damage. Hammer Fiona also does not have a massive stun attack like Amaranth for sword, but really the damage she outputs is more than twice as much as sword so both have quite valuable uses.
  
  I’d argue that it’s worth maxing both at some point, but obviously not before mastering your defensive skills first. Both hammer and sword are useful in different ways and depending on the enemy you’re fighting you may very well want to use one or the other.
  
  Interchangeable Attacks
  
  I’ve found that in terms of timing and spacing both weapons have a few interchangeable attacks. This is useful when switching between the two and I’ll outline those attacks here.
  
  Amaranth Kick LLLLR : Orchid Strike LLR
  
  In terms of range these two are very similar, and although many would think that Stigma would be doable where Amaranth kicks are they’re actually wrong IF the enemy is being attacked during recovery and the range is necessary to land the attack.
  For example when Gnoll Chieftan does his spinning smash and you start winding up an Amaranth Kick to hit, you’re generally using the Amaranth Kick from max range, unless you started it from a side angle. In this situation Stigma will often whiff because of its short reach, even if you use all regular attacks just to advance. This is another tool that Amaranth has over Stigma is that its reach allows for much more adjustment in your spacing as you can use the startup swings just outside of an enemies attack radius much more freely than trying to do so with Stigma, which you have to advance much more.
  Therefore Orchid Strike is a much better alternative as it does nearly the same damage as Amaranth and has even more range on the final strike. You only get two swings to windup so the spacing is a little more difficult, but generally speaking the final hit goes so far that it easily makes up for the lack of spacing normals.
  
  Blossom Blow LLR(R)(R) : Grand Slam Calla LR
  
  Blossom Blow is arguable the most flexible Fiona attack in the game. Sadly for Long Hammer the only alternative in terms of timing is Grand Slam Calla. The attack itself is quite good, but because Hammer’s don’t benefit from stander canceling, this is the only thing you can safely go for in place of Blossom Blow, which if you see a wider opening you can adjust to get more damage and still stander cancel and keep yourself safe.
  
  Ivy Sweep LLLRRR : Butterfly Swing LLLR(R)~(R)~etc.
  
  Ivy Sweep is one option to deal with trash mobs that are surrounding you, and Butterfly Swing is Hammer Fiona’s option. Butterfly Swing is definitely more flexible because you can use as many as you want until your stamina runs out. Ivy Sweep’s attacks are all stander cancelable but the last kick has tricky timing and definitely more delay before being able to stander canceled, arguably of little actually benefit. I’d argue that Ivy Sweep is one of Fiona’s worst overall attacks because of the lack of damage and true versatility. Also, that it’s set in between two much more efficient attacks doesn’t help its cause. In fact, for clearing mobs Blossom Blow is 9/10 times the better option. Butterfly Swing I actually need to experiment more with, it seems okay but probably debatable. I personally prefer Orchid Strike in almost all situations for clearing trash as its hit radius is massive.
  
  Weapon Unique Attacks
  
  These are attacks that are really unique to each weapon and serve different purposes. Although the attacks mentioned in the Interchangeable section are unique on their own, these attacks have very specific properties for each weapon.
  
  Bamboo Splitter:
  
  This attack is one of the most underrated attacks Fiona has. It does decent damage, has good range, and has a very fast stander cancel in addition to being a very safe smash. There is no reason to do Spike Rose when you have this attack. It is unique in that it recovers so fast with stander that nothing in the Long Hammer arsenal can replace it except maybe a single normal.
  For example; against either of the spiders, Bamboo Splitter is possible after every single attack blocked or heavy standered with a large shield. This is not true for hammer Fiona, the only attack that opens the spider up to a Grand Slam Calla is the attack that lets swords do a Blossom Blow.
  
  Stigma:
  
  This is the only chargeable attack currently in the game. It does incredible damage even uncharged, and does decent splash as well. Other than that this attack is most useful when an enemy is downed and will rarely be charged unless in a very organized party or fighting an enemy that stays down especially long like Laghodessa.
  
  I’ll be updating this when the new attacks are released for NA. I know that hammer gets to charge its one hit smash, which may or may not be useful. Both sword and hammer one hit smashes are fairly useless in my opinion. Sword appears to get a new unique chargeable attack that has massive range. We’ll see how useful these two are.
  
  Thanks for reading!
  -Elysza EAST
  
  *Edit* According to many responses I'm off with some information about Butterfly Swing and Orchid Strike. Please note that these are my personal findings and opinions and of course each players interpretation will be different. I will continue to experiment with both sword and hammer and adjust my guide to the usefulness. To anyone who is looking for more information and other opinions, read the responses as they offer fantastic information. (I highly recommend watching Papa's Spider hammer solo, it is really a science in the potential of hammer Fiona)
• Papa wrote on 2010-12-26 07:01
  Two new attacks are useless. About as much damage as LR, fully charged.
  
  PS: You need far more research apparently. Sword, ESPECIALLY in the Giant Spider solo fight, will never be able to catch up to Hammer, after extensive research, and finally a video.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-12-26 07:06
  Bamboo Splitter, in my opinion, is very weak. It compares more to a hammer's normal attack than any hammer smash, or even the Sprint Smash.
  
  In terms of timing, Butterfly Swing and Amaranth are arguably similar.
  
  Grand Slam Calla has a very good AoE, and I'm usually able to wipe out 2-3 monsters in a wide range, though you must aim to the left a bit to get the full effect.
  
  I think you are underestimating Butterfly Swing a bit. It has the ability to kill every mob currently in the game in 1 swing, if you're at the right levels.
  
  Orchid Strike, IMO is one of the lesser used Hammer Smashes. It has such a long range, but has almost no horizontal range, and takes so long to administer. I feel a Butterfly would be faster sometimes.
• Papa wrote on 2010-12-26 07:08
  After actually reading everything in detail, it seems the OP hasnt even bothered to use Hammer. At least longer than one run. So many holes and Sword favoritism.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-12-26 07:15

  Quote from Papa;263168:

  After actually reading everything in detail, it seems the OP hasnt even bothered to use Hammer. At least longer than one run. So many holes and Sword favoritism.

  
  
  I wouldn't say only one run, but just lacking in use overall.
  
  Also: Stigma is God Status if you have a very low FPS. I manage to spam Stigma in Laghodessa runs when I only have around 15 FPS, and I still get commendations from my fellow partymates. (I'm usually 1-2vLagh while everyone else takes on the Red Spider. I manage to spam Stigma, while not taking too much damage.)
• Kendrak wrote on 2010-12-26 07:36

  Quote from Papa;263168:

  After actually reading everything in detail, it seems the OP hasnt even bothered to use Hammer. At least longer than one run. So many holes and Sword favoritism.

  
  
  I've used hammer quite extensively, regarding your post about spider, I would really enjoy seeing a video with the finish time. Specifically, using large shield instead of small shield, and getting a free Bamboo Splitter after every attack with one exception leading to Blossom Blow heavily beat's out hammer only being able to get 1 normal/Grand Slam Calla in place. In a counterattacking battle it would be dependent on how many normal strikes the spider does because hammer has tremendous damage output, but can only be executed on the spider when downed, it has no other openings except a dodged Jump, which is just an Orchid Strike, and you won't be seeing many Jumps anyways since you'll be spending most of the fight at point blank.
  
  Also I'm really curious how you guys see favoritism for sword. Really I'm being as objective as possible, these are simply my findings. Hammer does tremendous unmatched damage, but I really cannot see any argument that it is nearly as versatile as sword because of the inability to stander cancel. Stander canceling keeps Fiona so safe in many instances I really view it as a crutch. Hammer's require far more knowledge of an enemies recovery time because you don't have the option to cancel your attack into a blocking stance. Please advise me where favoritism comes up in my thread and I'd be happy to rectify.
• Papa wrote on 2010-12-26 07:49
  [video=youtube;b3lG2CJqlmg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3lG2CJqlmg[/video]
  
  While I may not be an ordinary player, this was my second attempt at the spider. My first attempt shows just about what you describe(its in my video channel, find it). Basically an inexperienced Fiona, that has no idea as to what Hammer is capable of doing.
  
  After ACTUALLY using both weapons for a while, I was able to determine what you can and cant do in GS's specific time frames.
  
  Hammer is the victor, by a very long shot.
  
  That part alone, and your inexperience with Hammer, lead me to discredit this thread. (If youre not inexperienced with Hammer, then youre just a bad player. I did not want to post that.)
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-12-26 07:49

  Quote from Kendrak;263200:

  I've used hammer quite extensively, regarding your post about spider, I would really enjoy seeing a video with the finish time. Specifically, using large shield instead of small shield, and getting a free Bamboo Splitter after every attack with one exception leading to Blossom Blow heavily beat's out hammer only being able to get 1 normal/Grand Slam Calla in place. In a counterattacking battle it would be dependent on how many normal strikes the spider does because hammer has tremendous damage output, but can only be executed on the spider when downed, it has no other openings except a dodged Jump, which is just an Orchid Strike, and you won't be seeing many Jumps anyways since you'll be spending most of the fight at point blank.

  
  
  Orchid Strike is very inefficient to use mid battle, save for when the monster is turning. I find Butterfly Swing much more fitting against spiders. Counterattacking is rather viable for both.
  
  The key to Hammer, as I see it, is careful planning and calculating. You can count the seconds and you grow a feel for the speed. Things tend to speed by more than Sword, where sword you try to push for as many attacks as possible, but there is no exact "Set Plan."
  
  I would not say Blossom has beat out Grand Slam Calla, at least not by a long shot. They're very comparable, especially in higher level boats.
  
  Edit: Guard's rank 9 bonus is much more time-saving for Hammers, as well.
  
  Also, if I find myself having to use swords, I tend to sway toward large shields as well. The cushion of heavy standering everything instead of having to decide gives me more courage to push through with fast attacks.
• Kendrak wrote on 2010-12-26 08:01

  Quote from Papa;263217:

  [video=youtube;b3lG2CJqlmg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3lG2CJqlmg[/video]
  
  While I may not be an ordinary player, this was my second attempt at the spider. My first attempt shows just about what you describe(its in my video channel, find it). Basically an inexperienced Fiona, that has no idea as to what Hammer is capable of doing.
  
  After ACTUALLY using both weapons for a while, I was able to determine what you can and cant do in GS's specific time frames.
  
  Hammer is the victor, by a very long shot.
  
  That part alone, and your inexperience with Hammer, lead me to discredit this thread. (If youre not inexperienced with Hammer, then youre just a bad player. I did not want to post that.)

  
  
  That's an excellent Video, but I was really referring to with a large shield and without items/etc. because I meant the Laghodessa Raid and using large shield because with small shield the knockback is so great that you greatly risk aggroing the second spider. Anyways, I absolutely respect your gameplay, and will work further on my hammer skills. Perfect guarding into Butterfly Swing on the spider's slow attack was well executed and impressive. I'll remove the comment from my original thread.
  
  *Edit* After some more research, thanks Papa for encouraging me to investigate more, you're findings are accurate. In Hidden sword cannot beat out hammer in terms of speed, even with a long shield. I apologize, my findings were based on my experience with Laghodessa duoing with an Evie with Insane Reaper and Stamina Potions. With those stamina boosters you can guarantee hit's after every attack from either spider indefinitely and it appears to be much faster because the hits guaranteed with hammer are only normals and Grand Slam Calla. Again, I'm posting from my own experiences and try to do as much research as I can before offering an opinion. I highly recommend you try large shield and sword setup for soloing or duoing Laghodessa and if you're able to find a better solution with hammer please offer it. So far ~4 minutes is the fastest Laghodessa duo I've done, and I can't solo in under 20 minutes with sword and shield (this is with Palala glitch and no booster potions).
  
  

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;263218:

  Orchid Strike is very inefficient to use mid battle, save for when the monster is turning. I find Butterfly Swing much more fitting against spiders. Counterattacking is rather viable for both.
  
  The key to Hammer, as I see it, is careful planning and calculating. You can count the seconds and you grow a feel for the speed. Things tend to speed by more than Sword, where sword you try to push for as many attacks as possible, but there is no exact "Set Plan."
  
  I would not say Blossom has beat out Grand Slam Calla, at least not by a long shot. They're very comparable, especially in higher level boats.
  
  Edit: Guard's rank 9 bonus is much more time-saving for Hammers, as well.
  
  Also, if I find myself having to use swords, I tend to sway toward large shields as well. The cushion of heavy standering everything instead of having to decide gives me more courage to push through with fast attacks.

  
  
  Thanks for your comment, I agree with you on most points, but I do not see the ineffectiveness of Orchid Strike. That attack seems exceptional to me as it has a massive hitbox and outreaches even Amaranth on the final strike. It also appears to do as much if not more damage than an Amaranth and as Papa's video shows is a very clear punish to the spider's whiffing Jump.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-12-26 08:08

  Quote from Kendrak;263244:

  Thanks for your comment, I agree with you on most points, but I do not see the ineffectiveness of Orchid Strike. That attack seems exceptional to me as it has a massive hitbox and outreaches even Amaranth on the final strike. It also appears to do as much if not more damage than an Amaranth and as Papa's video shows is a very clear punish to the spider's whiffing Jump.

  
  
  I guess you could call it a personal preference. For other attacks, its closer to Attack then a Recovery, but this has more of a build up then attack, with little recovery.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-26 08:21
  I main Hammiona and I gotta say..
  
  I'm not sure if I agree with Orchid Strike.
  Its either Grand Slam or Butterfly for me. It depends on which boss you're fighting sometimes, but theres only been one or two bosses where Orchid was a better choice. Since as everyone can agree, Hammionas have very poor recovery, I'd rather not push for a Orchid if I don't have to. So I stick with Grand Slam. Sometimes I just go straight for a perfect counter bait and pull a butterfly, which we all know is a fantastic skill on any occassion.
  
  Sorry, but I think you're alone here on saying Orchid Strike is useful. I almost never find myself using it. Its the poor recovery that I just cannot stand.
  
  Now the other thing about the OP post that really picked at me here is that you claimed hammers to lack knockdown. This isn't true.
  Both Butterfly Swing and Stigma have FAR more stun rate than Amaranth. But Amaranth has a much higher growth, which only serves to just even things out.
  
  I left smash skills left untouched and I can tell you right now from exchanging the two weapons that this is a fact.
  
  But since you'll never use stigma on a boss who isn't already down, I suppose it comes down to Butterfly and Amaranth.
  
  Butterfly Swing is Hammiona's greatest skill. It has good range, its easy to pull, deals excellent damage, and has plenty of stun power. I actually find myself starting to completely forget counterattack and go straight for Butterfly Swing after a baited perfect guard now. And you can wind it up in position too. I cannot stress how absolutely great Butterfly Swing is for both bosses and crowd control.
  
  If you've been using Orchid over Butterfly, you've been playing Hammiona wrong. No wonder the thread OP post is sword favored.
• Kendrak wrote on 2010-12-26 08:30

  Quote from Cucurbita;263263:

  I main Hammiona and I gotta say..
  
  I'm not sure if I agree with Orchid Strike.
  Its either Grand Slam or Butterfly for me. It depends on which boss you're fighting sometimes, but theres only been one or two bosses where Orchid was a better choice. Since as everyone can agree, Hammionas have very poor recovery, I'd rather not push for a Orchid if I don't have to. So I stick with Grand Slam. Sometimes I just go straight for a perfect counter bait and pull a butterfly, which we all know is a fantastic skill on any occassion.
  
  Sorry, but I think you're alone here on saying Orchid Strike is useful. I almost never find myself using it. Its the poor recovery that I just cannot stand.
  
  Now the other thing about the OP post that really picked at me here is that you claimed hammers to lack knockdown. This isn't true.
  Both Butterfly Swing and Stigma have FAR more stun rate than Amaranth. But Amaranth has a much higher growth, which only serves to just even things out.
  
  I left smash skills left untouched and I can tell you right now from exchanging the two weapons that this is a fact.
  
  But since you'll never use stigma on a boss who isn't already down, I suppose it comes down to Butterfly and Amaranth.
  
  Butterfly Swing is Hammiona's greatest skill. It has good range, its easy to pull, deals excellent damage, and has plenty of stun power. I actually find myself starting to completely forget counterattack and go straight for Butterfly Swing after a baited perfect guard now. And you can wind it up in position too. I cannot stress how absolutely great Butterfly Swing is for both bosses and crowd control.
  
  If you've been using Orchid over Butterfly, you've been playing Hammiona wrong. No wonder the thread OP post is sword favored.

  
  
  I meant the range of Orchid Strike being comparable to Amaranth makes it useful for punishing bosses whiffed attacks. There are numerous openings (spiders jump, Chieftains spinning attack, Dim Gray's slide) that open them up for an Orchid Strike only because the range is so great. I really am trying to post an unbiased opinion I don't get how you guys see sword favoritism. If I'm wrong about an aspect of hammer then I'm wrong, but I've never said one is better than the other.
• Intex wrote on 2010-12-26 08:33
  Merged a few posts. Kendrak please use the edit button instead of double posting.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-26 08:40
  I just grand slam all whiffs and with left over time spam the crap out of sprint smash hs cancel. Maybe thats just me.
  
  And sometimes just wind up a butterfly swing and bait a whiff, much like people do with amaranth. A bit trickier but definitely possible and totally worth the damage.
• TheBoulder wrote on 2010-12-27 05:02
  The only time I ever use Orchid Strike is when I don't have enough time to use a Butterfly/Stigma on a boss, or when I don't feel like using Butterfly to clear trash mobs (not very often). It has great reach distance-wise, but horrible AoE.
  The moment a boss goes on its knees it will eat a Stigma Hammer from me, levels of charge depending on its aggro and whether it's a vampire or not.