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Rime wrote on 2010-05-08 21:51
Quote from Juno;30930:
Precisely. Though I opt to believe them in their case due to them all seeing the same people doing the same things. Barring some sort of schizophrenic overmind it wouldn't add up.
It's really hard to imagine the original context in which these people wrote the bible though. Guess the most definitive answer is that there is no clear answer.
Quote from Juno;30930:
Which is how it was intended to work out I think. If God wanted to give people no choice but to believe he probably would have given them no choice...literally.
To me, belief through fear seems very halfhearted. It doesn't imply the wanting to obey religion, but rather the fear of not obeying it. I can only imagine what happens when the fear factor is gone. In the Roman's case, their repeated subjugation and absorption of others into their own nation caused fissures that ultimately led the nation to be destroyed from within when the cracks started to show.
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Crimmy wrote on 2010-05-09 18:22
Plenty of interesting viewpoints, I'm surprised it's been kept so civil.
I am a Christian and not because I was raised as one either. I've been through a lot of bull in my child/teenage life: psychological and sexual abuse, being nearly poor as dirt, having no friends and being bullied constantly through to high school due to being nearly poor as dirt, and having the only things that I could talk to, my pets (parakeets and a Rottweiler, Shana), die due to old age or sickness because we have no vets here.
I don't put this info here because I want sympathy or any consolation, but because from a neutral standpoint, one could say that "God was not good to me."
But none of this is the work of God, it is due to a fallen world. Yet you could say "it's God's fault the world is fallen." No, it is because Adam and Eve, the first two humans, forsake God and ate of the forbidden fruit. "But God gave them free will so of course they'd pick it." Would you have preferred to be mindless servants with no freedom, like ants? I'm not exactly sure why God put the tree of evil in the garden but since there was a tree of life there also, I guess that makes sense, but it seemed Adam and Eve followed the rule until Satan, as a serpent, came in and tempted them.
I believe we live in a fallen world. I don't believe death is natural, nor sicknesses or poverty. If you experience the effects of death in multiple ways, especially human deaths, it's easy to see how unnatural it really is. Although I'm sure it's easy to say "death is natural" if you're sitting behind a tv watching lions tear up a zebra. I honestly don't believe God made diseases and poverty to torment the poor puny humans either. He even went around curing them while in human form. I don't believe God made those things happen to me but instead consoled me through them.
I believe life is like a race. When something trips you up, you don't sit there and complain about how God put that rock there, instead you pick yourself up and keep going. It's like the saying goes: if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. I would much rather live in a world where I had to work to become stronger and deal with the evils yet still have a loving father, a God, to lean on. This is why I believe in God, not out of fear of hell or because I was raised to believe in him, but because I know He exists and has effected my life personally.
I dunno, the idea of living in a world where God does everything for you and hand-feeds you seems repulsive to me. I like my freedom, or "free will", thanks.
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Criticalxhit wrote on 2010-05-09 18:49
[FONT=Century Gothic]
Quote from Juno;31082:
God is not going to prove his existence to you. If there was irrefutable proof [that is to say, any proof] of his existence there wouldn't really be a choice to follow or not to. It'd be a simple matter of eternal suffering or eternal bliss. Kind of a no-brainer.
You can't have it both ways. You don't believe in God, it's your choice, but don't expect to find yourself in heaven after death just for being "good".[/FONT]
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NewbieNub wrote on 2010-05-16 14:38
Quote from Crimmy;31982:
Plenty of interesting viewpoints, I'm surprised it's been kept so civil.
I am a Christian and not because I was raised as one either. I've been through a lot of bull in my child/teenage life: psychological and sexual abuse, being nearly poor as dirt, having no friends and being bullied constantly through to high school due to being nearly poor as dirt, and having the only things that I could talk to, my pets (parakeets and a Rottweiler, Shana), die due to old age or sickness because we have no vets here.
I don't put this info here because I want sympathy or any consolation, but because from a neutral standpoint, one could say that "God was not good to me."
But none of this is the work of God, it is due to a fallen world. Yet you could say "it's God's fault the world is fallen." No, it is because Adam and Eve, the first two humans, forsake God and ate of the forbidden fruit. "But God gave them free will so of course they'd pick it." Would you have preferred to be mindless servants with no freedom, like ants? I'm not exactly sure why God put the tree of evil in the garden but since there was a tree of life there also, I guess that makes sense, but it seemed Adam and Eve followed the rule until Satan, as a serpent, came in and tempted them.
I believe we live in a fallen world. I don't believe death is natural, nor sicknesses or poverty. If you experience the effects of death in multiple ways, especially human deaths, it's easy to see how unnatural it really is. Although I'm sure it's easy to say "death is natural" if you're sitting behind a tv watching lions tear up a zebra. I honestly don't believe God made diseases and poverty to torment the poor puny humans either. He even went around curing them while in human form. I don't believe God made those things happen to me but instead consoled me through them.
I believe life is like a race. When something trips you up, you don't sit there and complain about how God put that rock there, instead you pick yourself up and keep going. It's like the saying goes: if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. I would much rather live in a world where I had to work to become stronger and deal with the evils yet still have a loving father, a God, to lean on. This is why I believe in God, not out of fear of hell or because I was raised to believe in him, but because I know He exists and has effected my life personally.
I dunno, the idea of living in a world where God does everything for you and hand-feeds you seems repulsive to me. I like my freedom, or "free will", thanks.
Death is natural.
Without it, the world would be overpopulated... And sex would be banned.
And since you can't die, you'll forever be forced to suffer the pains of living. Diseases, torture, pain, whatever physical aliments that would happen to you will last as an eternal torture.
I hope you would love it when you can live forever.
Everything is beautiful in it's own way. If you couldn't see it, I doubt you should call this world a fallen world for no proper reason. It's so delicately balanced, yet harsh in such a way for the cycle to exist.
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Jean wrote on 2010-05-16 21:22
Based off the nature of most religious believers, I am disgusted with the nature of the people. Some of the things involved in a religions ideals are in fact very ethical and virtuous, yet... as Ghandi said (Fail paraphrase comin' up!):
"I like your Christ. He seemed like a great man. Although, I do not like your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ."
That aside; Science can explain a great deal of things, but... there are just some things it'll never be able to explain. They can go on and on about how morals and ethics in people are electrical impulses and are based off social inflictions from our societies, but there are some things that people do that go against their very nature of existing, such as giving themselves in the name of love for somebody they care for, or even a complete stranger (Very rare, but it's happened. Look it up. Also, in other words, sacrificing themselves.)
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Rime wrote on 2010-05-17 04:44
Quote from Jean;37254:
Based off the nature of most religious believers, I am disgusted with the nature of the people. Some of the things involved in a religions ideals are in fact very ethical and virtuous, yet... as Ghandi said (Fail paraphrase comin' up!):
"I like your Christ. He seemed like a great man. Although, I do not like your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ."
The culprit is ignorance and groupthink on a grand scale. I think we've already established how easy it is to skew religion for the benefit of the few.
Quote from Jean;37254:
That aside; Science can explain a great deal of things, but... there are just some things it'll never be able to explain. They can go on and on about how morals and ethics in people are electrical impulses and are based off social inflictions from our societies, but there are some things that people do that go against their very nature of existing, such as giving themselves in the name of love for somebody they care for, or even a complete stranger (Very rare, but it's happened. Look it up. Also, in other words, sacrificing themselves.)
Err even psychologist don't go as far as to relate specific thoughts to electrical impulses in the brain; the field is just too young and undeveloped for that form of thought. It was only less than a hundred or so years ago that scientist truly began to correlate behavior and emotion with brain activity, and they're still not completely sure with how the brain works today because of the its complexity. But that only implies that we have yet to figure it out, not that we'll never be able to figure it out. I'd explain a list of the areas of the brain that directly relate to cognition and even emotions, but it would probably be better if you received some actual classroom instruction on it. No offense or anything, but it's a difficult subject in itself and reading random articles online nowadays tends to spawn pseudo-scientific knowledge.
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Crimmy wrote on 2010-05-17 22:31
Quote from NewbieNub;36965:
Death is natural.
Without it, the world would be overpopulated... And sex would be banned.
And since you can't die, you'll forever be forced to suffer the pains of living. Diseases, torture, pain, whatever physical aliments that would happen to you will last as an eternal torture.
I hope you would love it when you can live forever.
Everything is beautiful in it's own way. If you couldn't see it, I doubt you should call this world a fallen world for no proper reason. It's so delicately balanced, yet harsh in such a way for the cycle to exist.
There would be no need for death if the world was not fallen. There would be no diseases nor ailments and overpopulation would not be an issue, why am I repeating myself just because someone did not read my post in its entirety and missed many of my points. I did not say "there should be no death" either but that it is not natural and a result of the fallen world. I really don't appreciate it when someone tries to put words in my mouth.
Also, I thought I'd make myself clear in that I am disgusted with the current church of today and am fully aware of how "christians" act. There are also many many denominations of Christianity and a lot of fighting goes on in between them not just between Christians and non-Christians. I have withdrawn myself from churches because of the corruptness and the so-called "christians" many times. I see what you guys see and am usually on the same ground of opinion, especially when it comes to homosexuals. But do realize that these people are NOT following Christianity's #1 rule: "Love thy neighbor as thyself." They're just people trying to be righteous by their works because they believe that God's got their back. The reality is that God should be in front of them not behind them. Blame the people who twist the religion to conform to what they believe, not the religion itself.
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Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-22 03:16
Death is completely natural.
Just like some elements decay after long periods of time.
Nothing lasts forever.
Who is anyone to say that this world is "fallen" because it is ridden with death and diseases and illnesses? That's to say that the world is fallen because it is not perfect.
Death is a natural decay of life. Just like everything that is thrown upwards must fall down at some point due to the effects of gravity. We are born, we die.
It's not the work of God.
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Zeo wrote on 2010-05-22 09:17
I don't believe in god or Jesus, and I never will.
I myself is a atheist, and it pisses me off when people tried to talk to me about religion.
I had dad's side of family, mostly my dad and my grandma, and they tried to pressure me into following their own religion which make me do not want to believe in the god/Jesus even more.
It also pisses me off that if people, such as your dad or grandma asked me to go to Church, I replied with a "no." then they went psycho and was all like "WHY NOT?!?!?!?!?11?!" to me. :l
I also had two more, other reasons; lot of people who believed in religions, they often would say how "god will save all of us humans from danger no matter what" But we're already in danger, lot of storms, earthquake, wars, and more. Guess what? God didn't even do anything to us.
And other reason, people with odd sexual orientations, like me.. (I'm gay)
They said god would accept everyone who they're, but in the bible, they were against the homosexual and I had several idiots who went and telling me "OMG You're gay, you must go straight or you'll go to hell!" which really irks me. x:
That is how I felt about the gods, Jesus, and religion. I don't.. even like to hang out with friends if they're religion because I had have many bad experiences about it in past. I don't want to be offensive.. but I think religion is just a way for people to not worry about death, and danger. |;
EDITTED:: I'm not sure if anyone already said this, but most of the wars, is often caused by religion, lol.
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Crimmy wrote on 2010-05-26 15:35
I think I'm pretty much done with this thread, I don't even think this is really a debate or belief thread, just a religion bashing thread really. Bash the extremists who take religion and disfigure it to conform to their ways, not the religion itself you know nothing about. If you want to complain about extremists bashing you then don't do the same thing they're doing. You complain about them not accepting you yet you don't accept people who have different beliefs than you either. I'm not pushing my beliefs on you, I'm just stating them. If you want to believe everything that exists came from rock over billions of years according to the evolutionary theory, you won't see me bashing you.
Quote from Zeo;41339:
And other reason, people with odd sexual orientations, like me.. (I'm gay)
They said god would accept everyone who they're, but in the bible, they were against the homosexual and I had several idiots who went and telling me "OMG You're gay, you must go straight or you'll go to hell!" which really irks me. x:
This is one of biggest issues with extremists, the inability to accept people just because they're different so instead they twist the scriptures to, again, conform to their ways. I hate it just as much as you people.
Bible never says anything about homosexuality except for the commandments "do not lie with a man like you would a woman" to the
Jewish people to keep them separate from the other cultures at that time. This was similar to the "do not eat pork" and "don't touch a woman while she's on her period" and many speculate these rules were just put in for general cleanliness at that time. Later on, these rules were removed and many animals were "made clean" for them to eat. If someone tries to use this rule against you then ask them if they eat pork or shave their beard or cut their hair. If so, then they're total hypocrites.
Peter's talk about "homosexuals" in the NT was actually about the orgies in the pagan temples not homosexuality itself.
God himself says why Sodom was destroyed: "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."
No mention of homosexuality. At all.
None. This is why I say blame the extremists because the religion itself is not at fault. If you're gay, that's perfectly fine! According to the Bible itself, there's no problem! I have no issue with gay people at all and have had gay friends. If you got "rid of religion", the extremists would just use something else to twist. Just like they're doing now with keeping homosexuals from marrying with their "marriage was meant for a woman and a man".
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Spartaaaaa wrote on 2010-07-04 17:58
I personally believe the Bible and am a christian, and becoming a christian was one of the most wonderful things that has ever happened to me! My advice to anyone who would criticize the Bible is to READ the entire Bible (King James Version) at least ONCE! That way, you won't sound ignorant when you're discussing it! And yes, the Bible does condemn homosexuality.
"For this cause God gave them up unto VILE affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their ERROR which was meet." -Romans 1:26-27
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Chillax wrote on 2010-07-04 20:25
Here we go again .-.
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kuri wrote on 2010-07-05 00:18
what i've seen from the religious side is that there is no real evidence that would hold up to scientific scrutiny. the "evidence" that is offered all have to deal with what-if's and personal testimonies of how god has affected a certain person's life. i'd have to say that religion helps certain people and so i find nothing wrong with people believing what they choose <- if someone believes something false and it makes them happy, so be it
however, the issue with religion that non-believers often have is that most of them seek to make changes to society beneficial to their set of beliefs. now, if a police officer wants to enter my house and search for something, he's got to have some sort of evidence. "i got a FEELING while i was driving past your house that you're hiding drugs" <- this just isn't going to cut it
likewise i think that religion, due to it's longstanding history and large member base and money, is receiving too much slack concerning societal influence
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Tatsu wrote on 2010-07-05 19:03
^Gut instincts like to be right though. But that's due to your brain unconsciously analyzing the situation, atmosphere, evidence, and patterns all at once and coming to a conclusion. Too bad you don't consciously know what the situation, atmosphere, evidence, or patterns. So that kind of example doesn't exactly work.
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Seventy wrote on 2010-07-05 23:55
I've been to church, I'm a catholic, I'm just not very religious. They just talk about the letters from the disciples to each other and whatnots when he talks, then he does a homoly or something I think, and communion.
Whether its evolution or God, I'm not sure about both. Because why would evolution give us thinking, reasoning minds, and not the rest of the animals?
and as for God, well, I'm not even sure. too much wondering about that.
Those are my views.
I just live life as it goes.
The Bible is an intersting story though, whether it is real or not. :)