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Fir wrote on 2011-01-02 00:36
I just went through a lag run where 2 players said that a Fiona is supposed to go in a corner and let the spiders wail on them while heavystandering (and I asked if they were talking about
luring but apparently not). This was their definition of "tanking" in a lag run. Personally I thought that was the biggest bs I heard since Fiona is a defensive melee fighter (better defense, counter attack, more hp etc) not a tanker (just sitting there and heavystander all day). Hell I would say there are no tanks in this game since the monster just seem to target players at random. And even if a Fiona is heavystandering that won't do anything to lure the monsters to her since she's not doing anything while the players are wailing away on the spiders, it's pretty obvious who the spiders would turn their attention to. But of course, I could be wrong so that's why I'm turning to this forum. So is a Fiona supposed to "tank" the spiders like the method mentioned above?
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Kueh wrote on 2011-01-02 00:38
No one is "Supposed" to do anything. I don't know what the players were thinking, but they sound self-important.
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Lunuance wrote on 2011-01-02 00:46
Just Heavy Standing isn't wise, but a Fiona can certainly keep a spider occupied while the rest of the party kills the other spider quickly to make things less complicated, which could be considered tanking, tho really, any character can keep a spider busy with their own skills (blink, slipdash).
As for bosses targeting at random, this is not so. There are many things which aggro the bosses, like drinking a potion, using a feather, mining, using flashes, getting too close.
Strangely, Evies healing doesn't aggro, so with a healer and people not taking too much damage, its not difficult to avoid stealing aggro from a Fiona who is "tanking," tho the Fiona typically has to be somewhat proactive, tho with the Evie stamina regen buff it is viable to simply Heavy Stand in a corner if no one does anything to steal aggro.
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Fir wrote on 2011-01-02 00:54
Quote from Lunuance;272669:
Just Heavy Standing isn't wise, but a Fiona can certainly keep a spider occupied while the rest of the party kills the other spider quickly to make things less complicated, which could be considered tanking, tho really, any character can keep a spider busy with their own skills (blink, slipdash).
As for bosses targeting at random, this is not so. There are many things which aggro the bosses, like drinking a potion, using a feather, mining, using flashes, getting too close.
Strangely, Evies healing doesn't aggro, so with a healer and people not taking too much damage, its not difficult to avoid stealing aggro from a Fiona who is "tanking," tho the Fiona typically has to be somewhat proactive, tho with the Evie stamina regen buff it is viable to simply Heavy Stand in a corner if no one does anything to steal aggro.
There's your problem. How can you not steal aggro when Fiona just heavy stands the attack while the other players are "getting too close." and attacking a boss at the same time. It's just not viable.
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Lunuance wrote on 2011-01-02 01:05
Quote from Fir;272679:
There's your problem. How can you not steal aggro when Fiona just heavy stands the attack while the other players are "getting too close." and attacking a boss at the same time. It's just not viable.
Oh, you just fight the other boss in opposite corner and you can avoid the closeness problem (even if the Fiona dies in the corner you can avoid aggroing away from her dead body). It does work, but it is prone to problems, and not really the best way to deal with that fight unless you have a really small party (duoing, trioing).
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Fir wrote on 2011-01-02 01:06
That's not tanking, that's just the luring method from the guide I placed in my first post. A tank is supposed to keep aggro and stay alive while giving other players an opening to attack. Your method is just luring one spider and letting the other spider go on a rampage while sacrificing a player. The two seem similar but different fundamentally.
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Lunuance wrote on 2011-01-02 01:19
Ya, I'm just trying to understand what the people you're talking about might've meant heh. I wouldn't really call it tanking either, which is why I tried to put quotes around it. But the only viable method of Fiona turtling up in a corner is that method (which certainly has worked), and requires the whole party avoiding aggro, which is just not something that happens much in large random parties, and isn't as efficient as other methods.
I only mentioned the dying player because its funny to me that the spider will stay even after the player is dead, so the dead player is still maintaining aggro in a way heh, and any character could manage this.
As for your question, if there is a tanker in the party, it would be a Fiona, but using a Fiona as a Tank is generally not something that should be employed.
I'm curious, how many players were in that party?
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Intex wrote on 2011-01-02 02:42
Fiona fits my definition of a tank, being able to survive/block many hits as compared to other characters. I'd still call a Fiona running solo a tank.
Luring isn't a great tactic but Fiona fits the role much better than any other character can. You could say Fiona isn't supposed to spam heavy stander but it's not like anyone has any "supposed to" role. It's your decision to choose what's going to help your party more. If you're in a very uncoordinated party then it would be better to separate the spiders. If you're in a coordinated party who can dodge and attack both at once then you'd be wasting your time. It's just like how some parties would be better off with a staff Evie spamming heal constantly and others having a staff Evie only attacking.
Of course that's only talking about a boss battle where you can separate the bosses. If there's even one other person near the boss then there's no way you could hold aggro and shield everyone.
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Cucurbita wrote on 2011-01-02 03:27
Is this 5 spider brothers?
I solo it on my fiona in hard macha.
Just lure them into the hall way leading out of the boss room, and counter them all to death. Simple and easy.
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Kueh wrote on 2011-01-02 03:33
5 spider brothers are stunned by Invisible Loom, and by Bloody Thread, so I just wail on them for about 45 seconds until the fight is over.
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Fir wrote on 2011-01-02 03:49
Quote from Lunuance;272707:
Ya, I'm just trying to understand what the people you're talking about might've meant heh. I wouldn't really call it tanking either, which is why I tried to put quotes around it. But the only viable method of Fiona turtling up in a corner is that method (which certainly has worked), and requires the whole party avoiding aggro, which is just not something that happens much in large random parties, and isn't as efficient as other methods.
I only mentioned the dying player because its funny to me that the spider will stay even after the player is dead, so the dead player is still maintaining aggro in a way heh, and any character could manage this.
As for your question, if there is a tanker in the party, it would be a Fiona, but using a Fiona as a Tank is generally not something that should be employed.
I'm curious, how many players were in that party?
Full party pug.
Quote from Cucurbita;272856:
Is this 5 spider brothers?
I solo it on my fiona in hard macha.
Just lure them into the hall way leading out of the boss room, and counter them all to death. Simple and easy.
This was Nightmare in the Ruins.
Quote from Intex;272792:
Fiona fits my definition of a tank, being able to survive/block many hits as compared to other characters. I'd still call a Fiona running solo a tank.
Luring isn't a great tactic but Fiona fits the role much better than any other character can. You could say Fiona isn't supposed to spam heavy stander but it's not like anyone has any "supposed to" role. It's your decision to choose what's going to help your party more. If you're in a very uncoordinated party then it would be better to separate the spiders. If you're in a coordinated party who can dodge and attack both at once then you'd be wasting your time. It's just like how some parties would be better off with a staff Evie spamming heal constantly and others having a staff Evie only attacking.
Of course that's only talking about a boss battle where you can separate the bosses. If there's even one other person near the boss then there's no way you could hold aggro and shield everyone.
This is kind of what I'm getting at. I just find it really frustrating that player's label Fiona as the tank and expect them to take care of the beatings as if they're some kind of magical aggro machine.
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Intex wrote on 2011-01-02 04:06
Quote from Fir;272881:
This is kind of what I'm getting at. I just find it really frustrating that player's label Fiona as the tank and expect them to take care of the beatings as if they're some kind of magical aggro machine.
Then those are bad players. With random aggro everyone has to defend themselves.
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TA wrote on 2011-01-02 04:09
They were probably trying to get the break.
Check out the guide here. That's what it sounds like to me.
You draw agro by constantly using feather and canceling. Every time you use an item it gives you agro, so that's how that works.
As for it being a fiona, well... probably cause they can guard. But, no... a Fiona isn't a tank in this game, really. It's never even her role.
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Intex wrote on 2011-01-02 04:13
Quote from Tasha;272902:
They were probably trying to get the break. Check out the guide here. That's what it sounds like to me.
You draw agro by constantly using feather and canceling. Every time you use an item it gives you agro, so that's how that works.
As for it being a fiona, well... probably cause they can guard. But, no... a Fiona isn't a tank in this game, really. It's never even her role.
From his description it sounds like it was only two people who wanted him to draw one spider away so that they could kill them one by one.
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Fir wrote on 2011-01-02 04:13
Quote from Tasha;272902:
They were probably trying to get the break. Check out the guide here. That's what it sounds like to me.
You draw agro by constantly using feather and canceling. Every time you use an item it gives you agro, so that's how that works.
As for it being a fiona, well... probably cause they can guard. But, no... a Fiona isn't a tank in this game, really. It's never even her role.
Nope I asked them. They just died a lot and blamed it on Fionas for not tanking properly. We didn't even have the break goal in mind. And I already mentioned luring in my first post (and included the guide in it too).