how much INT do you need to break even come G13?

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gentrone wrote on 2011-01-05 11:07

Quote from Cryosite;277253:
rk1 blaze with full charge off of a knockback can do 7200 on explosion damage alone. 5400 post-g13 nerf. That is not a crit. I've personally crit for nearly 12k with only rk2, against golden apple hard mobs.

Combo is nice I guess.

Yes. But you need a full knockback for that damage. The previous formula is for soloing.
radionoise wrote on 2011-01-05 11:09

Quote from gentrone;277228:
That's because Blaze was meant for a magic-melee hybrid, with both high Int and Str. I can easily get ~200 damage with enough lvl ups and some damage enchants using a combat wand. And most of my melee skills are rF. Now imagine an actual warrior with maxed out Str and end-game damage enchants. Combat wands have a really high crit and balance so they are really good melee weapons -expensive, but good-. Also, they have a huge splash radius (like a two hander), so that leap attack tactic would stun monsters nearby as well for AoE damage.

A combat wand is meant to be used with a shield. An actual Wizard Knight would wield a wand and a pair of swords (maybe a two hander). I don't believe the explosion is the most important part of the skill, looking at the big picture; maybe it is for pure mages, but not for high lvl hybrids.

Since damage from the skill itself comes from Int and Str, neither should have higher damage output than the other (in this combo, at least). 850% of 200 is 1700 non crit; plus Int damage, that's more than 3k damage in a single combo.

At 200 max on a hardmode mob (~50 def, 30% prot), the melee portion (500% + 200% + 140%~200%) would deal ~1100 damage noncrit, the resulting explosion (G13 Blaze damage, full multiplier due to down attack and capped INT) would deal ~3700 noncrit damage. I think it would be optimal to have 250~300 max melee damage to make it worthwhile for hardmode and depending on leap attack's cooldown, you might have to stall a bit for consecutive usage.

The bulk of the damage would still come from the INT explosion, but the extra melee damage definitely helps and leap attack should make the full multiplier easier to achieve regularly.
gentrone wrote on 2011-01-05 11:13

Quote from radionoise;277255:
At 200 max on a hardmode mob (~50 def, 30% prot), the melee portion (500% + 200% + 140%~200%) would deal ~1100 damage noncrit, the resulting explosion (G13 Blaze damage, full multiplier due to down attack and capped INT) would deal ~3700 noncrit damage. I think it would be optimal to have 250~300 max melee damage to make it worthwhile for hardmode and depending on leap attack's cooldown, you might have to stall a bit for consecutive usage.

The bulk of the damage would still come from the INT explosion, but the extra melee damage definitely helps and leap attack should make the full multiplier easier to achieve regularly.

I'm not sure if you get a full multiplier after leap attack. I was under the impression that it worked like Charge.
radionoise wrote on 2011-01-05 11:18

Quote from gentrone;277256:
I'm not sure if you get a full multiplier after leap attack. I was under the impression that it worked like Charge.

Mmm... not sure if they changed it since the last time I saw the blaze combo being used (when leap attack was still in test), but I think it did back then.

If it doesn't, it's still better than def -> n+blaze in many situations... though Blaze at full multiplier will always deal faster damage.
Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-05 16:17

I'll just like to point out that while the new G13 int formula seem more powerful, it's actually weaker than our current int formula.

Here are some calculs I made in the past based on the information on the wiki.

Pre-G13 Int formula: 300 int with coresponding wand

Rank 1 Lightning bolt: 71 min - 193 max
Rank 1 ice bolt: 104 min - 120 max

G13 Int Formula: 300 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 47.15 min - 187.45 max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 85.1 min - 103.5 Max

G13 Int Formula: 600 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 53.3 min - 211.9 Max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 96.2 min - 117 Max

But.. with g13, the bonus damage from int is applied in critical so critical hit with bolt magic will be much higher than what it used to be.
Cryosite wrote on 2011-01-05 16:26

@Chiyuri yes, the old formula did provide more of a boost to your damage at the lower ends of the INT scale than the post G13 does. read: newbie mages won't get as much out of their INT. However, the upper ends of the scale do provide more damage giving an incentive to actually trying to gain huge amounts of INT. that was one of the key missing aspects of a mage style build... warriors and archers are already hot and keen on piling on their stat, but prior to g13, once a mage learns how things actually work... they realize that something like +11 INT from Honorable/Famous accessory... does not much of anything.

The INT formula post g13 is also much more significant to intermediate and advanced magics. +1% damage on a spell that naturally does less than 100 damage is not very impressive at all (icebolt). +1% damage on a spell that hits for 3k is (fireball).

My biggest love for the new system is not so much the actual rewards it promises to me as a mage, it is the fact that boosting INT will actually be meaningful, and it is a system that rewards a player for devoting more time, ap, and training to being a better mage. Much like how how a mid-late game melee build will rank up a skill like final hit or carpentry... not because final hit is all that good (wm is almost always strictly better, as is smash) or because they like making bows, but because those skills enhance their playstyle through more strength.
Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-05 17:45

Even for powerful mage, 600+ int is within the realm of Tranform. Unless you spam payed rebirths and focus on int skill like crazy, which is not something everyone can do.. And even with 600 int, ice bolt damage is still lower than a 300 int mage pre-G13. I honestly can,t say that the formula is better simply because of int.. it's worst. But, once you take into acount critical damage will raise by a lot, I also have to agree this new formula is also better.

Also, from a source of information, I heard that int will also speed up casting speed of Bolt magic.

1% for 20 int is still very minor.. it's difficult to notice unlike raising Str or Dex for their respective class. Even if int become more importent, I think many magic user will still feel like int is somewhat pointless to raise past a certain point. Having more int will simply be a Bonus.. not the main reason you rank a skill.

Even for a skill like fireball, small little 1% are still far from been impressive. The main damage will still come from the power of Fireball. And situation where these little 30 more damamge would help finish up the ennemy that didn,t die from fireball high dammage are very slim.

Still, in general, g13 is a major boost for Magic user because of the mastery skills. using the right equipment and skill rank, it is possible to reach 99% mana reduction which is pretty crazy (no inter or Advance magic possible with that though)
Tatsigi wrote on 2011-01-05 18:01

Quote from Chiyuri;277385:
Even for powerful mage, 600+ int is within the realm of Tranform. Unless you spam payed rebirths and focus on int skill like crazy, which is not something everyone can do.. And even with 600 int, ice bolt damage is still lower than a 300 int mage pre-G13. I honestly can,t say that the formula is better simply because of int.. it's worst. But, once you take into acount critical damage will raise by a lot, I also have to agree this new formula is also better.

Also, from a source of information, I heard that int will also speed up casting speed of Bolt magic.

1% for 20 int is still very minor.. it's difficult to notice unlike raising Str or Dex for their respective class. Even if int become more importent, I think many magic user will still feel like int is somewhat pointless to raise past a certain point. Having more int will simply be a Bonus.. not the main reason you rank a skill.

Even for a skill like fireball, small little 1% are still far from been impressive. The main damage will still come from the power of Fireball. And situation where these little 30 more damamge would help finish up the ennemy that didn,t die from fireball high dammage are very slim.

Still, in general, g13 is a major boost for Magic user because of the mastery skills. using the right equipment and skill rank, it is possible to reach 99% mana reduction which is pretty crazy (no inter or Advance magic possible with that though)

First off, with some enchants and such a pure mage should have barely any difficulty reaching 600int. Right now ranking all the int skills a human would have 593int and a elf would have 607int just from the skills alone. Decent enchants and a title can easily add 30-80 int as well. I myself have around 760ish int with a good dk roll so no 600int is not within the realm and trans.

By next generation their is no excuse for a mage not to have 600int. After the g13 skills are added, humans can get up to 801int and elves can get up to 815 from ranking int skills alone. After adding enchants, leveling int, titles, and such then i can imagine that some hardcore mages will reach int in 900s without trans.

Next part at hand bolt magic can not reach 99% mana reduction due to the fact that mana reduction is multiplicative and not additive so all the mana reductions would be like that i believe

amount of mp used for bolt magic(45% (upgraded tikka wand) x 20% (rank 1 elemental mastery) x 20% (rank 1 bolt mastery) x 10% (mana reduction set)) = mana used.
sakraycore wrote on 2011-01-05 18:16

Quote from Chiyuri;277323:
I'll just like to point out that while the new G13 int formula seem more powerful, it's actually weaker than our current int formula.

Here are some calculs I made in the past based on the information on the wiki.

Pre-G13 Int formula: 300 int with coresponding wand

Rank 1 Lightning bolt: 71 min - 193 max
Rank 1 ice bolt: 104 min - 120 max

G13 Int Formula: 300 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 47.15 min - 187.45 max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 85.1 min - 103.5 Max

G13 Int Formula: 600 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 53.3 min - 211.9 Max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 96.2 min - 117 Max

But.. with g13, the bonus damage from int is applied in critical so critical hit with bolt magic will be much higher than what it used to be.

Seriously conflicting information here. I was told earlier in the topic that only 10 INT is needed to break even??
Zid wrote on 2011-01-05 18:51

Quote from sakraycore;277407:
Seriously conflicting information here. I was told earlier in the topic that only 10 INT is needed to break even??

Pre-G13 Intelligence of 10 = +2 extra damage

Post-G13 Intelligence of 10 = +0.5% extra damage

rF Lightningbolt = 1~40 damage

Pre-G13 rF Lightningbolt with 10 Int = 3~42 damage

Post-G13 rF Lightningbolt with 10 Int = 1~42 damage

Quote from gentrone;277256:
I'm not sure if you get a full multiplier after leap attack. I was under the impression that it worked like Charge.

Depends on when you use Down Attack on the downed enemy.

At certain points of the knock back gauge, a Down Attack will actually "bounce" the target rather than push back the target like Charge.
sakraycore wrote on 2011-01-05 19:51

Post-G13 Intelligence of 10 = +0.5% extra damage

Why is it only 0.5%? shouldn't it be 1% extra?
Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-05 22:01

Quote from Tatsigi;277396:
First off, with some enchants and such a pure mage should have barely any difficulty reaching 600int. Right now ranking all the int skills a human would have 593int and a elf would have 607int just from the skills alone. Decent enchants and a title can easily add 30-80 int as well. I myself have around 760ish int with a good dk roll so no 600int is not within the realm and trans.

By next generation their is no excuse for a mage not to have 600int. After the g13 skills are added, humans can get up to 801int and elves can get up to 815 from ranking int skills alone. After adding enchants, leveling int, titles, and such then i can imagine that some hardcore mages will reach int in 900s without trans.

Next part at hand bolt magic can not reach 99% mana reduction due to the fact that mana reduction is multiplicative and not additive so all the mana reductions would be like that i believe

amount of mp used for bolt magic(45% (upgraded tikka wand) x 20% (rank 1 elemental mastery) x 20% (rank 1 bolt mastery) x 10% (mana reduction set)) = mana used.

Int isn't everything for a magic user, Mana is also quite importent. My space for enchants was used for mana, not int.
Anyway, I'm not the best placed person to talk for mages, I'm a witch after all. Mana is first and only importance to a witch. With a good Rank 2 DK Roll (cause 1 is ugly) I can get around 1k mana, a Good int roll is only around 650 through in my case.

Anyway, I did some research on this multiplicative reduction. From what I found, while you are partially correct, you might as well be wrong too.

Mana Usage Reduction Armor effect act as a Cost Decreasing ability. If a spell would cost 100 mana to cast, you can cast it at 90 and it will only cost 90 mana.

Mana Reduction upgrades on wands Reduce the consuption of mana. 50% reduction on a wand would reduce the cost of a 100 mana spell down to 50. But you still need 100 mana to start casting.
These two mana reduction work differently which might be why they aren't addictive.. The armor first Reduce the cost of the spell down to 90, then the wand will remove 50% of the 90. ((Btw, I when ahead and tested it myself about 10 minutes ago))

Wand upgrades and the Armor are different form of mana reducing ability. One is "Consuption" and the other is "Cost".

The let me ask you.. Elemental mastery and Bolt Mastery Mana Reduction. Is it a Consuption reduction like wands?, a Cost Reduction like the armor effect? or a completly different reduction?

Wand Upgrades already prove that Consuption reduction can stack since we stack multiple upgrade with each their consuption reduction value.
So it's quite possible that "Cost" reduction also stack up. The wiki currently stade that Bolt mastery and elemental mastery have a Cost Reduction but it might just be a bad translation.

Anyway.. maybe I was a little far off with 99%, but it could reach atleast 74.5% overall reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X (10% + 20% + 20%))) X (100% - 49%) = Mana Used. Anyway, that,s based off if both skill are Cost reduction.
If they would be Consuption reduction it would be more like 90.1% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 20% - 20% - 49%) = Mana Used

If the Elemental mastery and bolt magic mastery mana reduction effect is different than "Cost" and "Consuption" but act like a secondary "Consuption" and both are the same thing.. We would get a 72.46% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% -20% - 20%) = Mana Used

If Elemental mastery and bolt Magic reduction are also different from each others and are neither Cost or Consuption but act like a Second and Third "Consuption". Then yes, it would be your complete Multiplicative reduction. 70.624% reduction (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% - 20%) X (100% - 20%) = Mana Used

Of course.. My guess is that Both these skills are a "Cost" reduction.
Tatsigi wrote on 2011-01-05 23:40

Quote from Chiyuri;277537:
Int isn't everything for a magic user, Mana is also quite importent. My space for enchants was used for mana, not int.
Anyway, I'm not the best placed person to talk for mages, I'm a witch after all. Mana is first and only importance to a witch. With a good Rank 2 DK Roll (cause 1 is ugly) I can get around 1k mana, a Good int roll is only around 650 through in my case.

Anyway, I did some research on this multiplicative reduction. From what I found, while you are partially correct, you might as well be wrong too.

Mana Usage Reduction Armor effect act as a Cost Decreasing ability. If a spell would cost 100 mana to cast, you can cast it at 90 and it will only cost 90 mana.

Mana Reduction upgrades on wands Reduce the consuption of mana. 50% reduction on a wand would reduce the cost of a 100 mana spell down to 50. But you still need 100 mana to start casting.
These two mana reduction work differently which might be why they aren't addictive.. The armor first Reduce the cost of the spell down to 90, then the wand will remove 50% of the 90. ((Btw, I when ahead and tested it myself about 10 minutes ago))

Wand upgrades and the Armor are different form of mana reducing ability. One is "Consuption" and the other is "Cost".

The let me ask you.. Elemental mastery and Bolt Mastery Mana Reduction. Is it a Consuption reduction like wands?, a Cost Reduction like the armor effect? or a completly different reduction?

Wand Upgrades already prove that Consuption reduction can stack since we stack multiple upgrade with each their consuption reduction value.
So it's quite possible that "Cost" reduction also stack up. The wiki currently stade that Bolt mastery and elemental mastery have a Cost Reduction but it might just be a bad translation.

Anyway.. maybe I was a little far off with 99%, but it could reach atleast 74.5% overall reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X (10% + 20% + 20%))) X (100% - 49%) = Mana Used. Anyway, that,s based off if both skill are Cost reduction.
If they would be Consuption reduction it would be more like 90.1% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 20% - 20% - 49%) = Mana Used

If the Elemental mastery and bolt magic mastery mana reduction effect is different than "Cost" and "Consuption" but act like a secondary "Consuption" and both are the same thing.. We would get a 72.46% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% -20% - 20%) = Mana Used

If Elemental mastery and bolt Magic reduction are also different from each others and are neither Cost or Consuption but act like a Second and Third "Consuption". Then yes, it would be your complete Multiplicative reduction. 70.624% reduction (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% - 20%) X (100% - 20%) = Mana Used

Of course.. My guess is that Both these skills are a "Cost" reduction.

Well, mana in not the topic of this thread is it? Also, you are the 1st person for me to hear refer to there character as a "witch". Mana is important and all and I personally use will o wisp gear for mana and int due to the lack of good int enchants currently, but mana is something that can be easily obtained with pots. While thunder mages like myself will have larger mana pools compared to ice spear mages, in the end it doesn't really matter because both spells are using a crapload of mana that exceeds both of our mana pools. Also i'll just randomly add in that in g13 704mp can be obtained from skill ranking.

Now for the point of a mana reduction set. I question where you get this "cost" theory from, because if you were to hover over the icon on mabinogi or check the wiki you will see that it obviously states "Reduces Mana consumption by 10%". The spell being able to be cast at 90% of the mana is supposed to cost is just a bonus affect, that most mages hardly notice or even care for. If that was the only affect then the set would be worthless. They care about if they 100mana currently and they are wearing the set instead of using 32 mana for 1 charge of rank one ice spear, they will instead only use 28.8. Saving them 4 mana per charged. Meaning that the 10% from the mana reduction set would be multiplicative with the mana reduction from the wands and masteries.

For the masteries, your reasoning....confused me...so before i reply to that, I would like to be more informed about it.
Justified wrote on 2011-01-05 23:51

Quote from Chiyuri;277537:
Wand Upgrades already prove that Consuption reduction can stack since we stack multiple upgrade with each their consuption reduction value.
So it's quite possible that "Cost" reduction also stack up. The wiki currently stade that Bolt mastery and elemental mastery have a Cost Reduction but it might just be a bad translation.

They don't add. Wand upgrades are considered one effect, which is why they're added. Other effects (mastery, bolt properties) will not be added.

Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost

Meaning 0.89MP Icebolts at Rank 1 or 0.22MP Icebolts at Rank F.

This isn't Maplestory, people need to stop adding percentages.
Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-06 01:54

Quote from Justified;277700:
They don't add. Wand upgrades are considered one effect, which is why they're added. Other effects (mastery, bolt properties) will not be added.

Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost

Meaning 0.89MP Icebolts at Rank 1 or 0.22MP Icebolts at Rank F.

This isn't Maplestory, people need to stop adding percentages.

So what you are saying is that Bolt Magic mastery's 20% is overuled if Ice Magic mastery has more mana cost reduction?
I'll just like to know where you got that information and if you tested it out yourself in a server that has G13?

Also I never played, researched or even looked at maplestory. I don't see the point of your comment unless ya taking for granted I'm been influenced by that game somehow?

Also to the other person before.
Wiki has called Fireball/Thunder/Ice Spear to be Advance magic for a long time which was wrong from the begining.
Even NA Mabinogi game call Escra from G2 as "He" which is a translation error in most case.
You can't take for granted how things are writen ingame.. but simply how they work. Test it out yourself if you don't beleive "Cost" type Mana Reduction and "Consuption" type mana reduction. I personnaly got that theory from one of Justified's post I found while researching this multiplicative theory of yours and tested it to see if it did work.

Last detail. I use the word "Witch" because I can't use "Mage". If I claim to be a mage on a forum, I get this "a person who drink mana potion" labled forced on me. Honestly it piss me off. I made a Self-Mana Suffisant magic user that doesn't need mana potions. If I can't call myself a mage, I might as well use a different "Magic user" related name instead. Which is why I took Witch. Ice Spear never exceeded my mana pool. If used wisely, inter magic are never mana costy and will not require you to drinik mana potions. Of course if ya just the type to spam it left and right, of course you'll end up wasting all your mana.

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