how much INT do you need to break even come G13?

• Tatsigi wrote on 2011-01-06 02:02

  Quote from Chiyuri;278024:

  So what you are saying is that Bolt Magic mastery's 20% is overuled if Ice Magic mastery has more mana cost reduction?
  I'll just like to know where you got that information and if you tested it out yourself in a server that has G13?
  
  Also I never played, researched or even looked at maplestory. I don't see the point of your comment unless ya taking for granted I'm been influenced by that game somehow?
  
  
  Also to the other person before.
  Wiki has called Fireball/Thunder/Ice Spear to be Advance magic for a long time which was wrong from the begining.
  Even NA Mabinogi game call Escra from G2 as "He" which is a translation error in most case.
  You can't take for granted how things are writen ingame.. but simply how they work. Test it out yourself if you don't beleive "Cost" type Mana Reduction and "Consuption" type mana reduction. I personnaly got that theory from one of Justified's post I found while researching this multiplicative theory of yours and tested it to see if it did work.
  
  Last detail. I use the word "Witch" because I can't use "Mage". If I claim to be a mage on a forum, I get this "a person who drink mana potion" labled forced on me. Honestly it piss me off. I made a Self-Mana Suffisant magic user that doesn't need mana potions. If I can't call myself a mage, I might as well use a different "Magic user" related name instead. Which is why I took Witch. Ice Spear never exceeded my mana pool. If used wisely, inter magic are never mana costy and will not require you to drinik mana potions. Of course if ya just the type to spam it left and right, of course you'll end up wasting all your mana.

  
  
  So you are telling me you can run a whole SCC HM and not use 1 pot.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-06 02:07

  Quote from Tatsigi;278053:

  So you are telling me you can run a whole SCC HM and not use 1 pot.

  
  
  I never tried this one before at that dificulity, I only run what I need to run. But I did run a big bunch of Ennemy Behind HM while Hunting for Shock. Some Provocation as well
  and a bunch of offerings.
  I did run a peaca basic resently too, it was quite fun.
• Justified wrote on 2011-01-06 02:41

  Quote from Chiyuri;278024:

  So what you are saying is that Bolt Magic mastery's 20% is overuled if Ice Magic mastery has more mana cost reduction?
  I'll just like to know where you got that information and if you tested it out yourself in a server that has G13?
  
  Also I never played, researched or even looked at maplestory. I don't see the point of your comment unless ya taking for granted I'm been influenced by that game somehow?

  
  
  Where did I say overruled? I said they were multiplied, not added. That doesn't mean overruled.
  
  Maplestory adds percentages for Critical Hit. Can't remember exactly since I quit that several years ago, but it's the same thing people keep doing here when calculating things.
  
  It's like Smash and Critical Hit. You dont add 500% and 250% to get 750%. You multiply 500% by 250% to get 1250%.
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-06 02:46

  Quote from Justified;278130:

  Where did I say overruled? I said they were multiplied, not added. That doesn't mean overruled.
  
  Maplestory adds percentages for Critical Hit. Can't remember exactly since I quit that several years ago, but it's the same thing people keep doing here when calculating things.
  
  It's like Smash and Critical Hit. You dont add 500% and 250% to get 750%. You multiply 500% by 250% to get 1250%.

  
  
  I don't even know what she means with overruled. ._.
  
  It doesn't matter if you multiply percentages in any order...
  
  (ice magic mastery %)*(INT damage %) = (INT damage %)*(ice magic mastery %)
  
  Example:
  
  90% of 50% is the same as 50% of 90%.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-06 03:02

  Quote from Justified;278130:

  Where did I say overruled? I said they were multiplied, not added. That doesn't mean overruled..

  
  
  You said ""Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
  x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost""
  
  Why didn't you add Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction effect in there then?
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-06 03:09

  Quote from Chiyuri;278159:

  You said ""Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
  x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost""
  
  Why didn't you add Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction effect in there then?

  
  
  That actually means 77.97% reduction XD
• Justified wrote on 2011-01-06 03:23

  Quote from Chiyuri;278159:

  You said ""Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
  x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost""
  
  Why didn't you add Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction effect in there then?

  
  
  I left out Magic Bolt Mastery then, since I forgot about it. Still don't know where "overruling" came from.
  
  In which case you get 17.62% Usage, or 82.37% Reduction.
  
  The point was that you don't add them together, you multiply. If you added 10% (Reduction Status), 49% (Tikka Upgrades), 20% (Ice Mastery), 20% (Bolt Mastery), 40% (Icebolt charges), then you'd end up with 139%. Meaning you'd have either 0MP Cost, or gain MP by casting magic.
  
  It's obvious that it doesn't work that way.
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-06 03:24

  Quote from Justified;278198:

  Meaning you'd have either 0MP Cost, or gain MP by casting magic.

  
  
  Now that would be sexy.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-06 14:20

  Quote from Justified;278198:

  I left out Magic Bolt Mastery then, since I forgot about it. Still don't know where "overruling" came from.
  
  In which case you get 17.62% Usage, or 82.37% Reduction.
  
  The point was that you don't add them together, you multiply. If you added 10% (Reduction Status), 49% (Tikka Upgrades), 20% (Ice Mastery), 20% (Bolt Mastery), 40% (Icebolt charges), then you'd end up with 139%. Meaning you'd have either 0MP Cost, or gain MP by casting magic.
  
  It's obvious that it doesn't work that way.

  
  
  I already said I gave up the idea of Adding All of it togeter. But it's still possible that "Cost" type reductions Stack with other "Cost" type and that "Consuption" type stack with other "Consuption".
  I already had asked you before.. where do you get the information about G13 that they absolutly don't stack up togeter? Did you go in a G13 server and tested it out yourself?
  
  
  If Cost type Do Stack togeter and that Both Bolt Magic mastery and elemental mastery are Cost Type reduction.
  it would give something like that(Ice Bolt final charge mana reduction is a Cost type)
  94.9% overall reduction when using ice bolt final charge. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X (10% + 20% + 20% + 40%))) X (100% - 49%) = Mana Used.
  It's still under 100%.
  
  If they are consuption Type, which I find really doubtful since it wouldn't make much sence, it's possible it could go over 100% reduction.
  
  Anyway, I'm just stating possibilities until someone bring proof of how Elemental Mastery Mana reduction and Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction work with other mana reductions.
  
  
  Edit: for those who saw the first version, Look at it again, I went and tested out if Ice bolt Final Charge was a Cost type or a Consuption type. It's a cost type reduction. I,ma go test out if mana reduction armor reduction and ice bolt final charge reduction stack togeter.. sadly using such low amount of mana, it might be difficult to actually notice the different but I'll see.
  
  Edit 2: Hmm that's pretty sad... That I use mana reduction armor or not, the ice bolt can be casted at around 2.4 mana If it was addictive, it should be 2 mana... if it was multiplicative, it should be at 2.16 mana. it's possible that these Cost reduction are overullnig the lower one and only the highest one is used... or maybe ice bolt final charge reduction is special...
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-06 17:00
  Hey Chiyuri, I'm trying to understand your reasoning but please be more specific in your equations. Like, where do the numbers come from? Categorize those % that you consider cost-type and reduction-type before proceeding to formulate the equation so we can have a clear vision of your reasoning.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-06 17:14

  Quote from gentrone;279039:

  Hey Chiyuri, I'm trying to understand your reasoning but please be more specific in your equations. Like, where do the numbers come from? Categorize those % that you consider cost-type and reduction-type before proceeding to formulate the equation so we can have a clear vision of your reasoning.

  
  
  Well I'm not even sure it works anymore...
  But here it goes: 10% is the Mana Reduction from Armor Effect. I call it a Cost type Reduction.
  The 20% are Reduction from Ice mastery and Bolt Mastery. Both these skill add 20% reduction. It ain't sure what kind of reduction they are.
  The 40% is the mana reduction when casting the final ice bolt charge. It is a Cost type reduction. (First charge of ice bolt is 100% cost, second bolt is 90%, third is 80% fourth is 70% and the final one is 60%, so you save 40% mana when casting the last one)
  The 49% is the reduction from a fully upgraded tikka healing wand. It's a Consuption reduction.
  
  The 100% I use in the equation is to reverse the reduction amount since the equation is not how much mana is removed but instead how much mana is used when Casting.
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-06 17:38

  Quote from Chiyuri;279050:

  Well I'm not even sure it works anymore...
  But here it goes: 10% is the Mana Reduction from Armor Effect. I call it a Cost type Reduction.
  The 20% are Reduction from Ice mastery and Bolt Mastery. Both these skill add 20% reduction. It ain't sure what kind of reduction they are.
  The 40% is the mana reduction when casting the final ice bolt charge. It is a Cost type reduction. (First charge of ice bolt is 100% cost, second bolt is 90%, third is 80% fourth is 70% and the final one is 60%, so you save 40% mana when casting the last one)
  The 49% is the reduction from a fully upgraded tikka healing wand. It's a Consuption reduction.
  
  The 100% I use in the equation is to reverse the reduction amount since the equation is not how much mana is removed but instead how much mana is used when Casting.

  
  
  Okay then according to you,
  
  Reduction set: Cost.
  
  5th charge: Cost (btw, are you sure about this? afaik you need to have the enough MP to cast the spell, however, it will consume just a %. Therefore, it should be consumption, right?)
  
  Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery: either cost or consumption. But should they both fall under the same category?
  
  

  First charge of ice bolt is 100% cost, second bolt is 90%, third is 80% fourth is 70% and the final one is 60%, so you save 40% mana when casting the last one)

  
  
  For the moment I would like to leave this aside.
  
  - So, we all agree the 10% reduction from the set is a cost reduction.
  
  so the final consumption would be 90% (of something)
  
  - If Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery reduction stack, the final consumption would be 60% of the total.
  
  =90%(60%(of something)=54%
  
  - So this fixed reduction percentage would apply to the Xth icebolt charge. Equation for the final charge would be 54%*60%=32.4%, for a 67.6% reduction.
  
  - However, I think every percentage reduction compounds like this:
  
  (Reduction set)*(Bolt Mastery reduction)*(Elemental Mastery reduction)*(Bolt consumption)
  
  =0.9*0.8*0.8*0.6=0.3456,
  
  a 65.44% reduction.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2011-01-06 18:00

  Quote from gentrone;279062:

  Okay then according to you,
  
  Reduction set: Cost.
  
  5th charge: Cost (btw, are you sure about this? afaik you need to have the enough MP to cast the spell, however, it will consume just a %. Therefore, it should be consumption, right?)
  
  Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery: either cost or consumption. But should they both fall under the same category?
  
  
  
  For the moment I would like to leave this aside.
  
  - So, we all agree the 10% reduction from the set is a cost reduction.
  
  so the final consumption would be 90% (of something)
  
  - If Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery reduction stack, the final consumption would be 60% of the total.
  
  =90%(60%(of something)=54%
  
  - So this fixed reduction percentage would apply to the Xth icebolt charge. Equation for the final charge would be 54%*60%=32.4%, for a 67.6% reduction.
  
  - However, I think every percentage reduction compounds like this:
  
  (Reduction set)*(Bolt Mastery reduction)*(Elemental Mastery reduction)*(Bolt consumption)
  
  =0.9*0.8*0.8*0.6=0.3456,
  
  a 65.44% reduction.

  
  
  For the IceBolt Mana reduction which is 40%, it act like a Cost reduction, just like the Armor effect. Let say you have rank 1 ice bolt which cost 4 mana. You have 3 mana left in your pool. You aren,t aloud to cast ice bolt until you actually have that 4 mana. Now Let say you already have 4 ice bolt so the next have a 40% Cost reduction. Once you have 2.4 mana, you can start casting ice bolt. I tested it a while ago and if you got the right skill rank, you can go ahead and test it yourself.
  But yea.. sadly my testing showed that Armor effect and the IceBolt effect don't compound or stack.. Since both act like a Cost reduction.. after they compount you should be able to start casting at 2.16 mana. (4 mana * 0.6 * 0.9) = 2.16 . But ingame.. I couldn,t cast Ice bolt at 2.16 mana.. I could only start casting at 2.4 mana. It's possible that Cost reduction only apply the highest reduction and ignore any additionnal Cost reduction Effects.
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-06 18:08
  Why are we having this byzantine argument anyways? Icebolt is the only spell with this property so it's not that important... also I don't know many mages that rely on the 5th bolt to kill stuff, and a fused bolt has no element... so...
• Justified wrote on 2011-01-06 18:18

  Quote from gentrone;279092:

  Why are we having this byzantine argument anyways? Icebolt is the only spell with this property so it's not that important... also I don't know many mages that rely on the 5th bolt to kill stuff, and a fused bolt has no element... so...

  
  
  I spent ~500 levels of my newb life spamming 5th charge Icebolts, lol.
  Plus the fact that they'll be stronger and cheaper might make them more useful for things like Fiodh Int. I can already run Int 1 with only Icebolt and no MP Pots, so with the changes it may be possible to clear it with no MP usage at all (counting regen).