Grammar Nazis

• Navy wrote on 2011-02-07 21:20

  Quote from Cryosite;324170:

  @Repeated suggestion to "go volunteer somewhere"
  
  No thanks. I don't think that will solve the problems very well.
  
  @Mama: she, not he.
  
  And yes, the internet has spawned a generation of chatspeakers. That is the problem.
  
  @all: The mindset that people have that they can and should "relax" how they type is the problem.
  
  The problem will continue to grow, because of the mindset people display in this very thread. And it will creep into our publications and professional lives; it has already started to.
  
  Like I said in the beginning, people have murdered each other and started wars and genocide over misunderstandings based on words. There are different branches of religions divided by just minor details of opinion on what their same holy text says.
  
  It starts with the mindset displayed here. Where you think "oh, they understand well enough, it doesn't matter."
  
  Then it leads to arguments between people because each assumed the other meant or understood one thing, when another thing was said or meant. This happens all the time. Because people don't take care to ensure they are understood as easily as possible.
  
  The problem grows, and the consequences grow with it.
  
  You can dismiss the problem as not being important if you like; you're free to have that opinion. But I consider it highly important, and I don't care if you think I am elitist or arrogant for it. How I choose to devote my energy to try to help people is my choice, and I firmly believe this is far more important than some stupid charity drive that helps some select group of people.

  
  
  Hey you, lighten up a bit.
  If I pointed out every grammatical error you make I'm sure you would get annoyed fast.
  And that is all of what your above post is, annoying.
• Devoth wrote on 2011-02-07 22:18
  Sieg heil, Cryo!
  
  With that said, I figured I'd hop in and throw my opinions around. A lot of what you've said seems to have been picked apart and commented on by several others, so allow me to jump on the bandwagon. For the record, your elaborate posts are generally good reads. Let me also say that I'm a fan of good grammar and literacy.
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite:

  No, it is just plain laziness on your part. Laziness to not put forth the initial effort to learn and grow accustomed to doing things the right way. And through that laziness you make it harder for others to understand you. Can people figure out what you are saying? Yes they can. But it is easier when it is done properly. That is why it is rude. You're doing less "effort" yourself and pushing that on other people.

  
  
  For one, you say 'the right way'. This is solely your opinion. I noticed you said that the internet is 'not a special place'. Yes, yes it is. In your eyes, no, it is not, but no one on the internet is REQUIRED to type with good grammar (save for places like role playing boards, etc that actually SPECIFY that you have to). However, the internet as a whole does not state that you must type with proper grammar. Also, when you say it's easier to read when it's done properly.. I really hope you don't think minor flaws make things harder to read. For the sake of an example, look below:
  
  hey, what have you been up to?
  
  vs.
  
  Hey, what have you been up to?
  
  You seem strict enough to also hate a lack of capitalization, and I honestly have no clue as to how capital letters make anything easier to read. Perhaps if there's a vague proper noun involved, then yes, I could understand.
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite:

  2) The internet is not special. Communication is communication, regardless of where or how it is done. Seeking to be as clear as possible matters always. If the internet had some kind of limitation on it, like cell phones do, about how easy it is to type and/or significant character limits then there would be a special case. Neither of those is true for a forum setting though.

  
  
  I already mentioned my opinion on the internet being special statement. I always seek to be clear, and I honestly hate it when people are extremely vague, but I can't agree with you in this case. If you were less anal about it, then yes, I could completely understand. LEET speak is obnoxious beyond belief; however, it seems like you're ready to bash on the most minor of flaws. Also, in non-serious situations, I don't think everyone always seeks to be clear. If you think that you need to think before you speak in every single situation, then you are entitled to doing so, but once again, we all share different opinions on the matter.
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite:

  3)It may be enough for you, but communication involves more than just you. While you are certainly free to treat others as you wish, there are words to describe some of those ways you can treat a person. What you are doing is inconsiderate. People typically don't like it when others are inconsiderate toward them. If you are OK with being inconsiderate towards others, that is your decision. Just don't be so upset when others make decisions in reaction to your rudeness. Plain and simple. Treat others as you wish to be treated and all that.

  
  
  The same applies to you, and I'm sure you can understand when I say that I'm sure you're often viewed as inconsiderate. The entire part that I've quoted is purely perspective based. I'm sure plenty of people treat others the way they wish to be treated. Thing is, we all want to be treated differently. We all have different views on what is and isn't acceptable. If two people can interact with Leet Speak and understand each other fluently, then how are they any different from two people communicating with superb literacy?
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite:

  Some people do change how they type. If someone is deadset on being a closed-minded buffoon, then I won't try to change them. You can't help those who won't be helped. But not everyone is like that, and you would be quite surprised at how many people actually do appreciate the help, and you would further be surprised at the people who just simple haven't looked at it the way I do, and have changed after some discussion.

  
  
  The part in bold is really upsetting because I view you as a highly intelligent person, and your posts are often very intricate and informative. What you've said is extremely hypocritical. You are just as closed-minded as they are (which, I really fail to see how they're all that closed-minded since they are simply speaking amongst themselves and not viewing others negatively), and the negativity you hold toward their lack of literacy is proof enough of that. Sticking to the topic of narrow-mindedness, there's something I find rather relevant. I have held many conversations with people who lack proper grammar, and I have watched many other literate people hold conversations with those who don't care to type properly. I have never seen these 'illiterate' people bash on the literate, but I have, time after time, witnessed 'literate' people being complete pricks to 'illiterate' people.
  
  This goes back to 'treat others how you want to be treated'. Let us say that the 'illiterate' people simply typed with terrible grammar.. and so they were chided by the 'literate' people for it. Our 'illiterate' subjects had no idea that not typing with proper grammar would get them scolded, nor did they find what they consider normal to be offensive. Are our 'literate' examples so stuck on their own perspectives that they would succumb to the ASSUMPTION that the 'illiterate' people were clearly being rude by not talking with proper grammar? One could argue that the 'illiterate' people are being just as inconsiderate because they did not take the time to type properly to someone else who does so, but there is no rule for it. People who choose to type with proper grammar are taking that up of their own free will. Unless it is stated that proper grammar is to be used, then there is absolutely no logical explanation as to how NOT typing properly can be 'rude'. The only rude ones are the ones who are willing to scold those who don't use proper grammar.
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite:

  The difference here is that by starting this thread, I am inviting people whom might be curious to read, and perhaps see something. They don't need to even post, but by reading I have politely shown them that they may have been rude without realizing it, and maybe, just maybe I've gotten some people to at least think about how they type, and how people see what they've typed, and encouraged them to be more mindful of striving to be understood. This is a non-confrontational way to point such things out.

  
  
  ..This thread would hold far more credibility and be much more of a learning experience if it did not hold the distinct air of an elitist. While you may not being trying to come off as such, your post really makes you sound like, well, a tyrant.. You sound like you think you know what's best. I love confidence, and I admire confidence, but when you push it to the point where it sounds arrogant, it stops being effective. I won't completely discredit you, though. To people who might have similar mindsets, your post could be one of the most beautiful reads in a while.. Also, one last thing I wanted to quote..
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite:

  Like I said in the beginning, people have murdered each other and started wars and genocide over misunderstandings based on words. There are different branches of religions divided by just minor details of opinion on what their same holy text says.

  
  
  People have also started wars because they don't like what another party is doing, and they are unwilling to view differences as anything more than WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Misunderstandings are a large source of conflict.. Not liking what others are doing because it doesn't fit with your perspective on what is right .. Because it's different.. Yea, well, I think everyone knows what discrimination leads to. Cryo, you have a lot of good points, but your post holds the same attitude as any religious fanatic that is unwilling to accept non-believers. Just like you, they're happy to share their beliefs and faith, and I have heard plenty of them say that if they could just help ONE person out, then it would be worth it. The thing is, you drive more people away than you bring in.
  
  (Let it be known that I did not proofread any of this, and these are all my opinions, and if for some reason I offend you or anyone else with this, I apologize.)
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-08 07:55
  Let us step back a moment.
  
  I would like to point out these three phrases found in this thread so far:
  
  

  Quote from Arsik:

  "get on people's cases"

  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls:

  "harp over grammar"

  
  

  Quote from tink:

  "if you disregard someone's post altogether because their post isn't perfectly typed"

  
  
  If you actually read my first post, I will point out that I stated these kinds of activities are not what we should be doing. A lot of derailing of the idea occurred while trying to explain myself in defense against these wrongful accusations. My apologies for not seeing this sooner, and falling for the derailments.
  
  I will restate again: My motivations are to improve understanding between people. It is my firm belief that if we all can use one standard to speak to each other with, and not deviate from that standard, we can avoid misunderstandings.
  
  Fortunately for us, we have such a standard that can be easily followed.
  
  There are two sorts of people who don't follow the standard. Those who choose not to and those who cannot follow it. If you choose not to follow that standard, I question your support of my ideal, the ideal of seeking better communication. If you cannot follow it, then I would seek to help enable you to gain the ability.
  
  You can quibble over the details about how relevant my ideal is. I feel it is highly relevant, and I know fully well that is an opinion, not a fact. Do not mistake my attempts to explain my opinion as harping, bashing, or elitism. I am not a tyrant, nor did I once state that I intend to force people to conform to my ways of thinking.
  
  You will also note, if you do actually read my first post, that it was at least partially directed AT grammar nazis, with suggestions on how to not be jerks to others, and to accomplish the goal of improved communication without doing any of the confrontational and negative things. Yet despite that, people are assuming that my discussion here is one of trying to prove why I should be allowed to be a jerk. Please reread and actually take time to comprehend what was written, and avoid adding in things that are not there.
  
  The statement was made several times "I type a certain way, and it is good enough." I disagree that it is good enough. If you are dead-set on your way, then you aren't the sort of person I would be offering help to. Your choice to stick with "good enough" is not something I agree with, and I am not going to change my ways to yours. This doesn't mean I am going to belittle you or try to correct you. All this means is that I will continue to seek others who are not like you, and seek to help them.
  
  My responses, as "annoying" as they may seem, are only so because people seem to think that by answering questions directed at me, I continue to explain why -I- think the way I do. I can only imagine the irritation comes because you, the reader, are mistakenly inferring that I am in any way suggesting you must agree with me or adhere to my standards. I would ask that you reread what I say, and not inject that inference and just take it for what is said.
  
  Further, as I said in my first post. Feel free to correct me. I said I am not perfect, and I welcome the corrections. Test that statement. I welcome the opportunity to learn and better myself.
• Mama wrote on 2011-02-08 08:10
  the problem is that you are judging people on the sole basis of grammar.
  
  your good intentions are riddled with obnoxious values and ideals. Like i said before, open your mind a bit.
  
  there is extremes on both ends when it comes to 'proper communication'. [SIZE="4"]There are places and times when it is appropriate, and neither extreme is the correct stance to take.[/SIZE] Repeating for emphasis.
  
  carry on with your life, and help those who ask to be helped. leave out the formalities and the essay about what's 'right' and whats 'wrong' as if it's your religion.
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-08 08:56
  At what point did I judge people?
  
  It is your opinion that there are times where it is appropriate and times where it is not. I seek to be as correct as possible in all places, and I explain why -I- choose to do this -myself-. Again, nowhere have I said I intend to force people or condemn them for not doing so. You are still putting your baseless inference onto things that simply are not there.
  
  I have simply stated: There is a right way to do it. This is a fact. You can slightly argue it because languages are alive, and do shift. I understand that, and make allowances within myself for it.
  
  If anyone is doing any judging here, it is you and those jumping on me, calling me irritating, or elitist or telling me what to do.
  
  If you do not seek to improve your ability to communicate, and are opposed to those who do, then please stop trying to force that ideal upon me. I am offering this thread, one among many on many topics here on these forums, as a way to find others who -share- my ideal, to try to come up with ideas on ways to not offend people when we offer help, and ways to find those people who need or want help.
  
  I don't understand why you feel the need to attack this so vehemently.
• Devoth wrote on 2011-02-08 12:27

  Quote from Cryosite;325539:

  At what point did I judge people?

  
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite:

  If someone is deadset on being a closed-minded buffoon, then I won't try to change them.

  
  
  That's also pretty much what made me post what I did. That's an insult and judgment placed against someone doing something you don't agree with. I'm pretty sure the only reason people started jumping on you (the ones who joined in AFTER your first post) was because your posts gained the elitist air. You judged. We judged. Judging other people is something ALL of us do. If you noticed, I did not quote your first post because I had nothing against your first post. No, I only disagreed with the post I quoted from. You disagree with people who don't use proper grammar, and you judge them for it. The lot of us here are judging you based on how we're perceiving your attitude. Hypocrisy is human nature.~
• Bride wrote on 2011-02-08 14:49

  If you actually read my first post, I will point out that I stated these kinds of activities are not what we should be doing. A lot of derailing of the idea occurred while trying to explain myself in defense against these wrongful accusations.

  
  i already stated it wasn't necessarily directed towards you and clearly said i've seen other people strict about grammar do just that
  i even said i should've said it in a more general sense, so from that, you should've understood it wasn't an accusation. stop trying to victimize yourself
• Adelynn wrote on 2011-02-08 15:43

  Quote from Cryosite;325539:

  I don't understand why you feel the need to attack this so vehemently.

  
  

  If someone is deadset on being a closed-minded buffoon, then I won't try to change them.

  
  
  Pot calls the kettle black?
  
  If you can say that people typing one way is the "right" way is a matter of "opinion" (and you have said that) one could say the same for you: that you are pushing your opinion on typing on other people in a way that is coming across as unfriendly. I say this because it's not just me who thinks this. Other people that type close to the way you prefer are seeing this as well.
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-08 17:56
  Who cares how a person types if they can write an essay properly outside of these forums?
  
  Mabination =/= school. IM services =/= school.
  
  While it would be great that people always wrote correctly in IMs and forums and text messages, it's not required. The only thing required is that you make yourself understood and that people indeed understand you.
  
  If this were some academic hall of science, then sure, I'd expect people to write correctly, but this isn't.
• Minuki wrote on 2011-02-08 18:18
  ... wow mk, i'm not going to go through every single post on this thread at the moment just yet lol, i'll get to that later.
  
  honestly, i dislike "grammar nazis". just look at the term itself. really? is that something you'd want to call yourself? O_o; it shouldn't matter if people don't type correctly 100% of the time. just because they don't capitalize their letters or end their sentences with periods, does that make them a lesser person than you? no. you understand the meaning of "u" and "ur", and that's all that matters. if the person who used it find it's more convenient for them, just let them do it because it does not harm you in any way. same reason why people take the elevator to get to the second floor sometimes instead of the stairs. it saves them only a little effort, but it's really not your business.
  
  on a different note, this doesn't really have anything to do with this post in particular, but i also dislike it when you're trying to have a proper debate with somebody, and as soon as they can't think of anymore rebuttals to your argument, they start attacking your grammar and use that as a means to question your intelligence.
  
  EDIT: okay, now reading the thread more carefully, let me see if i understood this correctly. too lazy to quote every single thing, so yeah. :l but that doesn't mean i'm "disrespecting" you or w/e.
  
  just because someone types "u" instead of "you" because it is shorter and faster for them to get their point across, you judge them for being lazy/rude. and yes, you are judging. because this is not the way it's ~*supposed to be done*~. and because they don't want to change the way they type just to match your holier-than-thou elitist standards, it automatically makes them a "close-minded buffoon".
  
  i agree with mama, you need to set your priorities straight. when having a discussion with another person, it's not about how well you can type with your capitalization and periods. if they don't, do you deem them unworthy of your attention?
  
  and i also agree with devoth.
  
  "i saw you at the supermarket today".
  "i saw u @ the supermarket 2day".
  
  ^ is there a difference between those two sentences? no. you understand what they are saying regardless of how they typed it. there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that could be misunderstood and spawn an argument, unless you personally take offense to the person using "u" and "@" instead of typing it the "proper way", in which case that is your own problem. are you going to try to change the entire internet to try to follow what you deem the "proper way"?
  
• Athde wrote on 2011-02-08 18:58
  Im a grammar spotter. I like finding the mistakes and then yelling out something weird like "THERE'S WALDO!!!"
• Adelynn wrote on 2011-02-08 21:36

  Quote from Athde;325947:

  Im a grammar spotter. I like finding the mistakes and then yelling out something weird like "THERE'S WALDO!!!"

  
  
  I LIKE THIS IDEA.
  It sounds kinda fun, as long as the person isn't annoyed.
  
  

  on a different note, this doesn't really have anything to do with this post in particular, but i also dislike it when you're trying to have a proper debate with somebody, and as soon as they can't think of anymore rebuttals to your argument, they start attacking your grammar and use that as a means to question your intelligence.

  
  
  Well, I think, sometimes, lack of proper capitalization, etc. can make someone lose credibility. However, if a person has to resort to attacking your grammar as opposed to the actual topic at hand, they're not exactly looking great, either.
• Ithiliel wrote on 2011-02-09 00:23

  Quote from Devoth;324585:

  Sieg heil, Cryo!
  
  With that said, I figured I'd hop in and throw my opinions around. A lot of what you've said seems to have been picked apart and commented on by several others, so allow me to jump on the bandwagon. For the record, your elaborate posts are generally good reads. Let me also say that I'm a fan of good grammar and literacy.
  
  
  
  For one, you say 'the right way'. This is solely your opinion. I noticed you said that the internet is 'not a special place'. Yes, yes it is. In your eyes, no, it is not, but no one on the internet is REQUIRED to type with good grammar (save for places like role playing boards, etc that actually SPECIFY that you have to). However, the internet as a whole does not state that you must type with proper grammar. Also, when you say it's easier to read when it's done properly.. I really hope you don't think minor flaws make things harder to read. For the sake of an example, look below:
  
  hey, what have you been up to?
  
  vs.
  
  Hey, what have you been up to?
  
  You seem strict enough to also hate a lack of capitalization, and I honestly have no clue as to how capital letters make anything easier to read. Perhaps if there's a vague proper noun involved, then yes, I could understand.
  
  
  
  I already mentioned my opinion on the internet being special statement. I always seek to be clear, and I honestly hate it when people are extremely vague, but I can't agree with you in this case. If you were less anal about it, then yes, I could completely understand. LEET speak is obnoxious beyond belief; however, it seems like you're ready to bash on the most minor of flaws. Also, in non-serious situations, I don't think everyone always seeks to be clear. If you think that you need to think before you speak in every single situation, then you are entitled to doing so, but once again, we all share different opinions on the matter.
  
  
  
  The same applies to you, and I'm sure you can understand when I say that I'm sure you're often viewed as inconsiderate. The entire part that I've quoted is purely perspective based. I'm sure plenty of people treat others the way they wish to be treated. Thing is, we all want to be treated differently. We all have different views on what is and isn't acceptable. If two people can interact with Leet Speak and understand each other fluently, then how are they any different from two people communicating with superb literacy?
  
  
  
  The part in bold is really upsetting because I view you as a highly intelligent person, and your posts are often very intricate and informative. What you've said is extremely hypocritical. You are just as closed-minded as they are (which, I really fail to see how they're all that closed-minded since they are simply speaking amongst themselves and not viewing others negatively), and the negativity you hold toward their lack of literacy is proof enough of that. Sticking to the topic of narrow-mindedness, there's something I find rather relevant. I have held many conversations with people who lack proper grammar, and I have watched many other literate people hold conversations with those who don't care to type properly. I have never seen these 'illiterate' people bash on the literate, but I have, time after time, witnessed 'literate' people being complete pricks to 'illiterate' people.
  
  This goes back to 'treat others how you want to be treated'. Let us say that the 'illiterate' people simply typed with terrible grammar.. and so they were chided by the 'literate' people for it. Our 'illiterate' subjects had no idea that not typing with proper grammar would get them scolded, nor did they find what they consider normal to be offensive. Are our 'literate' examples so stuck on their own perspectives that they would succumb to the ASSUMPTION that the 'illiterate' people were clearly being rude by not talking with proper grammar? One could argue that the 'illiterate' people are being just as inconsiderate because they did not take the time to type properly to someone else who does so, but there is no rule for it. People who choose to type with proper grammar are taking that up of their own free will. Unless it is stated that proper grammar is to be used, then there is absolutely no logical explanation as to how NOT typing properly can be 'rude'. The only rude ones are the ones who are willing to scold those who don't use proper grammar.
  
  
  
  ..This thread would hold far more credibility and be much more of a learning experience if it did not hold the distinct air of an elitist. While you may not being trying to come off as such, your post really makes you sound like, well, a tyrant.. You sound like you think you know what's best. I love confidence, and I admire confidence, but when you push it to the point where it sounds arrogant, it stops being effective. I won't completely discredit you, though. To people who might have similar mindsets, your post could be one of the most beautiful reads in a while.. Also, one last thing I wanted to quote..
  
  
  
  People have also started wars because they don't like what another party is doing, and they are unwilling to view differences as anything more than WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Misunderstandings are a large source of conflict.. Not liking what others are doing because it doesn't fit with your perspective on what is right .. Because it's different.. Yea, well, I think everyone knows what discrimination leads to. Cryo, you have a lot of good points, but your post holds the same attitude as any religious fanatic that is unwilling to accept non-believers. Just like you, they're happy to share their beliefs and faith, and I have heard plenty of them say that if they could just help ONE person out, then it would be worth it. The thing is, you drive more people away than you bring in.
  
  (Let it be known that I did not proofread any of this, and these are all my opinions, and if for some reason I offend you or anyone else with this, I apologize.)

  
  
  This. I agree with everything that was said here.