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ZandarEagle wrote on 2011-06-23 15:43
My main is a spear Lann, Level 67, and I have the most fun playing him even with a 47 Fiona and 56 Evie. (Yeah, I know, I spend way too much time playing Vindictus.) However, recently I've been hearing things about Lann is just barely outDPSing Fiona and Evie, and sometimes even doing less damage! That of course, he tends to die more easily than either of the 2.
With the new staff and hammer buff, I can easily see why the other 2 classes are a lot stronger now, but is the discrepancy really that bad? In most parties I'm in I don't really see the Evies and the Fionas doing that much more damage. Maybe it's a combination of survivability and damage that makes Lann weaker now?
Also, most people seem to be talking about raids and bosses...I solo a lot due to my work hours, and although people have said that Fiona and Evie solo just as well if not better, I still find Lann the easiest to solo with, as well as the fastest. He just cuts through mobs so much faster than the 2 girls, even with the buffs.
I'm leaving Karok out of the equation for now because I don't know that much about him (my Karok is only 31) but he may very well end up being the strongest character...
Also, in terms of transformations, Lann is the only character I've found that can constantly pour on the damage, due to Fury Infusion...he can spin, Fury, spin and Fury to sort of emulate the pre-patch transformation level of power. Because spinning can't be interrupted, with Fury he gets the closest to the no flinch, infinite stamina power of transformations before the patch. And you can always Gliding Fury or roll away when your stamina is running out, then rinse and repeat.
Is there something I'm missing here? I agree that the other classes are much stronger now, but is it really that bad for Lann? I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, just want to know what people think. I doubt I will go and level my other classes even if Lann really IS weaker (I've gotten too used to playing him) but I would like to hear from more people.
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foreignreign wrote on 2011-06-23 15:47
Sword Fiona is.
Spear Lann is still close to the top. Sword Lann is around scythe Evie level I believe, both of which are under Karok/hammer Fiona/staff Evie.
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Roy Mustang wrote on 2011-06-23 15:47
I'm an Evie so I can't really say. All I know is that me and other Evie's tend to get the most damage on most Bosses I have run. Of course Crazy Spear Lanns sometimes beat me with most monsters killed but sometimes I can beat them to.
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TA wrote on 2011-06-23 16:09
Wait, there was a massive hammer change? When did this happen?
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Oizen wrote on 2011-06-23 16:21
Lanns got nothing going for them, =/
Everything Else> Spear Lann>Sword Lann>Sword Fiona
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Invertex wrote on 2011-06-23 16:26
Quote from TA;486086:
Wait, there was a massive hammer change? When did this happen?
Last update. Repeated Butterflies have higher precentile, all hammer moves are actually a lot faster, and I think you can HSC them faster. It actually made Slashing High Butterfly a valid strategy, as it will do more damage then a Shield Charge to a downed enemy.
And Spear Lanns are only the best in raw DPS, which only matters in bosses like Hidden where you never should stop attacking. In actual gameplay, it's very hard to get that DPS as your dodge is equivlent to a Fiona's.
Also I think the common DPS values, from afk of course, which comes from Glas parties which abuse a glitch to prevent him from ever attacking are...
Spear Lann > Staff Evie = Hammer Fiona > Karok > Sword Lann = Scythe Evie >>> Sword Fiona
Now the important part is the "prevent him from ever attacking", in terms of actual play you might as well drop Spear Lann to the bottom for most raids. He's still playable (was reading Nexon forums for this stuff, Raidhunter is the guy who does all the raid solos with spears), but he requires a lot more effort and equips to reach that level.
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foreignreign wrote on 2011-06-23 17:06
The only hammer move worth HSCing is Butterfly Swing. The rest you're just as well off by moving to cancel them.
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Dagurasu wrote on 2011-06-23 17:42
Quote from Invertex;486114:
Last update. Repeated Butterflies have higher precentile, all hammer moves are actually a lot faster, and I think you can HSC them faster. It actually made Slashing High Butterfly a valid strategy, as it will do more damage then a Shield Charge to a downed enemy.
And Spear Lanns are only the best in raw DPS, which only matters in bosses like Hidden where you never should stop attacking. In actual gameplay, it's very hard to get that DPS as your dodge is equivlent to a Fiona's.
Also I think the common DPS values, from afk of course, which comes from Glas parties which abuse a glitch to prevent him from ever attacking are...
Spear Lann > Staff Evie = Hammer Fiona > Karok > Sword Lann = Scythe Evie >>> Sword Fiona
Now the important part is the "prevent him from ever attacking", in terms of actual play you might as well drop Spear Lann to the bottom for most raids. He's still playable (was reading Nexon forums for this stuff, Raidhunter is the guy who does all the raid solos with spears), but he requires a lot more effort and equips to reach that level.
Everyone knows RaidHunter is the exception to the rule though. I play a Spear Lann and the one thing I notice is that most of us will spin2die instead of taking advantage of openings and/or getting the hell out of the way of a bosses combo. Gives us all a bad rap. :fail2:
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Oizen wrote on 2011-06-23 18:56
Spin2win doesn't exist.
I mean trans doesn't have infinite stamina anymore, and all other classes can out damage it.
T_T
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foreignreign wrote on 2011-06-23 19:14
The fact that trans doesn't have infinite stamina anymore just means that spear Lann's Fury Infusion is that much more useful.
You have to stand around doing nothing for a good 3+ seconds or so to regen all your stamina with the DK +150 stamina buff (at least with an Evie, anyway). A spear Lann just cuts himself once and is ready to go. All that stamina regenning is valuable time when you only get 1 minute of stage 2 trans.
Fiona can partially bypass this with Slashing High, but that still requires 3 SP bars (which isn't as easy to get now).
Playing a staff Evie as a DK is a pain. Being a DK/Pally as a Fiona/Lann is just so much better than with an Evie (possibly Karok as well).
I would say that a Paladin Lann can outdamage a DK Evie (of either kind) in not even ideal conditions. Paladin Lann because of the extra survivability so he doesn't have to worry about Fury Infusion HP loss.
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Kollin wrote on 2011-06-23 19:16
on paper Lann is beast at DPS. in reality however, he sucks and pretty much all the other characters (with the exception of sword fiona perhaps) will outlive and because of that outdamage him.
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foreignreign wrote on 2011-06-23 19:22
Quote from Kollin;486324:
on paper Lann is beast at DPS. in reality however, he sucks and pretty much all the other characters (with the exception of sword fiona perhaps) will outlive and because of that outdamage him.
The latter half of your statement is also in theory.
In reality it is very well possible for a spear Lann to still out damage other classes as long as he keeps up with his spins and glides. The amount of damage he can put out over sword Lann/Scythe Evie is still there, and when you get lucky against a boss like Thor, a spear Lann can keep on him for a loooooooooong time.
Just because you die once every minute or so (mind you, Thor runs are only like 10 minutes long even in PUGs) does not necessarily effect your DPS when someone can revive you in a matter of seconds. A 10 second cooldown every time you die isn't much.
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timanth wrote on 2011-06-24 06:38
Quote from foreignreign;486330:
Just because you die once every minute or so (mind you, Thor runs are only like 10 minutes long even in PUGs) does not necessarily effect your DPS when someone can revive you in a matter of seconds. A 10 second cooldown every time you die isn't much.
And if you keep dying, no one will bother to revive you anymore, effectively dropping your DPS to 0. I stop reviving spear lanns in parties when they die more than 3 times. Keeps me safer when I don't have to spend time rezzing, and I will probably out-DPS him anyways.
In terms of sheer damage, I have been consistently topping the DPS charts as a scythe evie, even against Hammer Fionas and Staff Evies in full gear (+10 enchanted and such). I only run with a +7 Prideful Valor BT Scythe, no thor equips. The reason a scythe Evie is able to pour on as much damage as she does is not her DPS to stationary targets, because that actually sucks. It's her ability to chase down fast-moving targets and land in a quick Soul Skewer or Invisible Loom on them, which has a massive spike of damage (BTW, I believe either of those smashes do more damage than their extended smashes [MoD or BT respectively]). I've fallen into a habit of landing as many smashes as I can before pulling, and activating the snaps when I'm unable to attack the boss.
DPS Classes like Lanns often get the short end of the stick when it comes to mobile bosses like Unballistaed Titan (and Blood Lord) because their single hits don't do very much damage. They rely on keeping close to a boss and constantly hitting them to do significant amounts of DPS. However, with teleporting bosses like Blood Lord and bosses that can literally walk across the map in a few steps like Titan, it becomes hard for classes that rely on sticking to a boss and constantly damaging him to win out in DPS. That's where spike damage classes like both types of Evies shine. Scythe evie just has the advantage over Staff in terms of mobility and the ability to keep on the boss's ass and spam smashes.
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foreignreign wrote on 2011-06-24 08:13
Quote from timanth;487152:
And if you keep dying, no one will bother to revive you anymore, effectively dropping your DPS to 0. I stop reviving spear lanns in parties when they die more than 3 times. Keeps me safer when I don't have to spend time rezzing, and I will probably out-DPS him anyways.
But if no one else is dying because surviving is so easy-squeezy for everyone else, then a party won't have any problem reviving a spear Lann. And spear Lanns still don't die at a rate of once per minute unless they're really bad, that was just hyperbole at my part. In which case if they are dying that much, they're really bad and won't be DPSing well on any character.
DPS Classes like Lanns often get the short end of the stick when it comes to mobile bosses like Unballistaed Titan (and Blood Lord) because their single hits don't do very much damage.
That's just not true. A spear Lann can LR and almost guarantee a crit with Fury Infusion and go into Gliding which does just as much as Soul Skewer (even more if the Gliding crits). And if you're thinking LR is too long, then Sprint Smash -> Roll is almost just as good. Sword Lanns aren't as well off, but they're still better at burst damage than Fionas and possibly staff Evies if you're citing Blood Lord's teleporting.
Not to mention that a spear Lann can freaking spin into the back of a moving boss and deal damage while moving.
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timanth wrote on 2011-06-24 09:28
Quote from foreignreign;487453:
But if no one else is dying because surviving is so easy-squeezy for everyone else, then a party won't have any problem reviving a spear Lann. And spear Lanns still don't die at a rate of once per minute unless they're really bad, that was just hyperbole at my part. In which case if they are dying that much, they're really bad and won't be DPSing well on any character.
You haven't answered my point that everyone would be better off dealing with the boss than wasting the time required to run over, rez the spear Lann, and run back to the boss. I acknowledge that extremely skilled Lanns are an asset to the party, but the skill floor for Lanns is extremely low, and the threshold for competency is extremely high. Lann is really a class that you have to work extremely hard at to get good at, and God knows I can't solo for my life with a spear Lann.
Quote from foreignreign;487453:
That's just not true. A spear Lann can LR and almost guarantee a crit with Fury Infusion and go into Gliding which does just as much as Soul Skewer (even more if the Gliding crits). And if you're thinking LR is too long, then Sprint Smash -> Roll is almost just as good. Sword Lanns aren't as well off, but they're still better at burst damage than Fionas and possibly staff Evies if you're citing Blood Lord's teleporting.
Not to mention that a spear Lann can freaking spin into the back of a moving boss and deal damage while moving.
Gliding Fury does nowhere near as much damage as Soul Skewer. I know people like to cite numbers, but when playing vindictus I like to cite visceral experience. A noncrit soul skewer made a boss's health bar go down more than a Gliding Fury. QED. It doesn't matter how many numbers are bandied about if emperical evidence shows otherwise. And please don't tell me that a sword Lann can put out more burst damage than a hammer Fiona, because that's also not true. Butterfly spin is currently both ridiculously fast and powerful, and I can easily outdamage ranked Gliding Furies even with my butterfly at E.
And at higher levels, you can no longer guarantee crits even with FI since bosses have such high crit resistance and are going to keep getting more of it the later on we get. Also, Sprint Smash -> Roll, if you are relying for the roll to crit, takes way more time than an LR. My point still stands that because Lann has to take time getting to a boss, much slower than a Scythie can (because of blink) or a Staffie (because of ranged damage), his overall actual DPS will be lower, no matter what the numbers say. Sure, he may be king when the boss is just standing there not doing anything, but in the heat of combat, landing hits will often get him killed. After-GF-delay says hi.