Some ideas I had for making the characters' fighting styles more unique and balanced.

• Oizen wrote on 2011-07-12 01:33

  Quote from Dagurasu;508028:

  Lann is fully capable of doing a third crescent slash. No one said it's a vertical crescent. He could do a third slash with his left hand as it came back down after he twirls. Or hey, you know, they could always just change the animation to something else.

  
  
  He spins in a circle in the air you know. There is no comming back down.
• Dagurasu wrote on 2011-07-12 03:45
  He jumps and twirls. As his hand is coming back down to it's resting position you could fit in a 3rd hit right there. I jumped on my Lann just to figure out where you could fit a third one on DC. Also, they could just change the damned animation, your argument is now invalid.
• Skye wrote on 2011-07-12 04:15

  Quote from foreignreign;506384:

  Whether or not the "general population of evies" can't deal with it isn't a problem. The general populace of the Lanns can't deal with Slip Dash's somewhat small invincibility frames and yet the invincibility frames are fine the way they are (there are still tons of Lanns who can't properly Slip Thor's AoE lightning even though that's so easy to do). There needs to be some kind of penalty to the skill, since getting flung around isn't a real penalty, it being able to be broken doesn't matter 90% of the time, and it requires absolutely no skill to use. Heavy Stander doesn't require skill to use either, but at least your shield can break (requiring you to actually do something to fix it), or it eats a ridiculous amount of stamina (with small shields) and doesn't necessarily save you anyway.

  
  
  Yeah, actually, it is.
  You can be flung obnoxiously far from a boss. Then you have to make your way over to it again, only to possibly mana amber and be flung away again. And from what I've seen, it's more of a panic thing than anything else. Good staff Evies only use it when they need to.
• Intex wrote on 2011-07-12 04:32
  There's no reason why DoT damage should deal direct damage to Evie HP. It's already pretty uncommon to deal with (Titan and Thor don't even have DoT). The real strength in mana shields (aside from its natural regeneration) is its ability to tank any hit with just one mana shield up. Even with one HP, as long as you have a mana shield up you could survive that Thor charge or Titan spear that would otherwise kill a half health person. DoT defeats this by constantly breaking new shields and leaving Evie vulnerable. This would probably help Evie more than it would hurt her.
  
  I like the idea of giving more control over coronas, as activating one when you only have a scratch is really aggravating. The OP suggestion would be too powerful (unless you lowered the healing of each corona) but ThatNerd's suggestion is pretty good.
  
  Your scythe change would make scythe Evie super popular in raids. Just take one (assuming MoD effect is unique) keeping the boss marked constantly and you get higher damage for seven other people as well as free stamina potions from IR.
• Oizen wrote on 2011-07-12 07:18

  Quote from Dagurasu;508795:

  He jumps and twirls. As his hand is coming back down to it's resting position you could fit in a 3rd hit right there. I jumped on my Lann just to figure out where you could fit a third one on DC. Also, they could just change the damned animation, your argument is now invalid.

  
  But wouldn't that result in his attack being in the opposite direction? He is spinning while jumping.
  
  If the animation is changed, its not really a crescent I kinda like it how it is.
  
  How about this: Stam V, damage slight ^
  
  NOW its invalid.
• Dagurasu wrote on 2011-07-12 16:18

  Quote from OizenX;509161:

  But wouldn't that result in his attack being in the opposite direction? He is spinning while jumping.
  
  If the animation is changed, its not really a crescent I kinda like it how it is.
  
  How about this: Stam V, damage slight ^
  
  NOW its invalid.

  
  
  It's all the same direction, just that the third slash would be done on the way back down resulting in a top right to bottom left(camera is facing the front of Lann) diagonal slash.
  
  Also, your sig is hella creepy. wtf D:
• GregHouse wrote on 2011-07-12 17:29
  About all the DC talking... why dont they just make a "falling" 3rd atack.... i mean... you atack twice as going up, let gravity do the rest. It could be a two handed downwards smash. Doesnt need to be called Triple Crescent you know...
  
  Then again, im not an experienced lann.
• Dagurasu wrote on 2011-07-12 19:23

  Quote from GregHouse;509643:

  About all the DC talking... why dont they just make a "falling" 3rd atack.... i mean... you atack twice as going up, let gravity do the rest. It could be a two handed downwards smash. Doesnt need to be called Triple Crescent you know...
  
  Then again, im not an experienced lann.

  
  
  That's what I've been saying, it just doesn't change the animation. :p
• Gotejjeken wrote on 2011-07-12 22:07

  Quote from foreignreign;506302:

  Brace yourself, because I have a lot after all the mind-numbing trans runs I've done. But at least they're organized neatly for easy reading.
  
  Fiona:
  

  
  
  • Remove Heavy Stander Counter and replace it with Heavy Stander "Deflection." Instead of using the move after HSing, you use it before a smash and it keeps Fiona's relative position (ie: no knockback) but does no damage. Costs ~10 stamina to use (on top of HS's stamina cost). Window for the skill would be short (maybe equal to the length of Slip Dash at most). The skill could also maybe put her into a position like Perfect Guard does (although I think even just letting Fiona Blossom Blow/Orchid Strike after a deflection would be more than enough).
    
  • Give Fiona an actual running charge skill that looks like the Heavy Stander Counter run. Can be activated by hitting Guard then the down direction. Runs faster than regular sprinting but costs 1.5~2x as much stamina. Also, add a new combo that Fiona can use out of this charge, like a running charge -> R and running charge -> LR combo, and let her use her SP: Shield Charge straight out of her running charge after running a certain distance (without the initial "cast" animation of her raising her shield). Make it so that if Fiona does SP: Shield Charge this way, the damage is increased.
    
  • Make Shield Bash a small shield-only skill.
    
  • Give a new SP skill for large shields that'll allow Fiona to block any attack and she also won't be moved back by anything while in Heavy Stander. Make it wear off after x amounts of hits blocked with HS.
    

  
  
  Hammer Fiona:
  

  
  
  • Limit Butterfly Swing to 3~5 swings. Make the damage of each successive swing diminish instead of a static number (ie: if first hit is ~.2 percentile, then next is .17, third is .14 etc.)
    
  • Make a fully charged Stigma deal much more knockdown.
    

  
  
  Sword Fiona:
  

  
  
  • Move the Ivy Sweep Kick to after Amaranth Kick instead. Increase the damage of the Ivy Sweep kick and maybe lower the damage of Amaranth Kick.
    
  • Remove the shield bash from Ivy Sweep, increase the damage of the sword slice, and add a second sword slice.
    

  
  

  
  
  Going point by point...
  
  Heavy Stander 'Deflection' really brings no benefit here at all, and takes away one of Fiona's best positional assets. If I want to keep my relative position, I'll use a large shield.
  
  So Fiona gets punished for having an actual run smash? Last time I checked Evie and Karok have one of those with no penalty at all. The idea of having some kind of running smash is nice, however.
  
  No idea why shield bash would be small shield only. That's basically handicapping for no reason again.
  
  Why would you need an SP skill for what large shields already do? Nothing moves you back now, and it 'wears off' when you run out of stamina. Having a redundant SP skill takes away from something more useful, like shield charge.
  
  Not liking the hammer rebalances at all. Having a 'spin2win' deal gives slashing high a purpose, which it desperately needed as it was beyond useless before. Also, limiting the number of swings on butterfly is just ridiculous. As for Stigma, no need to have fully charged add knockdown damage since you'll never be able to get one off consistently anyway.
  
  I can almost see moving Ivy to after Amaranth working, however I cannot see the second bullet point being practical.
  
  Finally,
  
  

  Quote from ThatNerd;506551:

  
  Fiona:
  -I want fiona's roll removed, >:(
  -butterfly to be downed to only 2-3 consecutive hits
  -Ivy sweep changed into only a roundhouse kick (.160 percentile maybe?) and an uppercut kick after it (.145?)
  -Higher amaranth damage (maybe add another 1-2 consecutive hits)
  -make blossom's 2nd and 3rd hit more damage and faster
  -Shield charge increases in damage by 1.5x (swords only)
  
  Other than that, I don't think she needs any charging/dodging skills.
  

  
  
  This sounds more like an angry sword user than anything. Also, removing Fionas roll? I'm not really sure what to think now, and am leaning towards deciding you are a troll.
• Eyrion wrote on 2011-07-12 23:16

  Quote from foreignreign;506302:

  
  Make it so that Karok's roll doesn't activate Absorb Shock (actually not sure on this one).

  
  
  I think his roll should continue to activate Absorb Shock and attacks should not. It's like if you wanted, Karok could just normal attack forever and never be harmed, and to top it off; his normal attacks are stronger than any other characters, so bosses would go by fast.
• Cathaoir wrote on 2011-07-13 00:44

  Quote from Eyrion;509967:

  I think his roll should continue to activate Absorb Shock and attacks should not. It's like if you wanted, Karok could just normal attack forever and never be harmed, and to top it off; his normal attacks are stronger than any other characters, so bosses would go by fast.

  
  
  Karok was made to be able to go toe-to-toe with a boss. That is the reason why they get the skills they get (i.e. clash, boss bash, absorb shock). Just so you know, there are a lot of attacks where it is impossible to absorb every single hit while doing a combo. I'm pretty sure you didn't go far with your Karok if you didn't realize that. Also, having absorb shock isn't an automatic invincibility. If you absorb one attack, but then get hit right after, you lose both the absorbed damage, and the damage you just got hit. So no, a Karok cannot "normal attack forever and never be harmed." Anyways, if all you did was normal attack, and not even smash at all, you would be doing low end damage, probably worse than your whole party.
• BlackGod wrote on 2011-07-15 06:38
  Just my personal opinions...
  
  For Lann: I agree on decreasing Spear Lann's dodge roll stamina cost and increasing it's distance and speed, but I don't think sword lann's gliding fury should be as good as Spear Lann's. Everything else I disagree with. Spear Lann's critical is insane enough as it is, no need to raise dodge roll crit or a fury-infusion-always-get-lightning-fury mechanic.
  Personal thoughts for improvement though: Somehow improve Sword Lann's ability to stay on a foe and possibly double crescent speed(Damage should be kept the same; the increased speed just gives swordies a greater window of error when executing double crescent). Sure, he's supposed to play the ninja but his dps is trash right now compared to staff and hammer fionas. Perhaps slip dash should increase distance as well as invincibility frames and stamina usage per level? Perhaps overall damage should also be improved by, say, 1.1x?
  Edit: A ninja is not supposed to suck at killing things. It's supposed to suck at taking hits, which it's supposed to be able to dodge effectively. Some bosses are undodgeable with slip dash were the lann out of position, ie. thor's lightning charge attack.
  
  For Fiona: HS deflection does not fit Fiona's playstyle - she's not a Karok or a Lann. Being a veteran hybrid Fiona (more towards the sword side), I disagree with every single change proposed, but I won't go into specifics. I believe hammer fiona is perfect the way she is, but sword fionas need a buff or a revamp... They're completely outclassed by every class in damage and party contributions, except as utility such as titan lure and never-worry-about-death, the first of which is able to be done just as well by a hammer fiona who can also deal actual damage to the boss, and the second a meaningless perk to the fiona as her survivability does not contribute to the overall effectiveness of the party as she does not increase the speed at which a boss is finished and her only real usefulness is to revive people reliably... Which every other class can already do. Even in solo play, sword fiona sees inferiority to a hammer fiona. I could link 2 videos of queen solo with a hammer and a sword done by the same player upon request (player is not me).
  Sword Fionas can be balanced through a very, very simple buff. Increase her overall damage. An increase in the equivalence of 1.1x ~ 1.3x should be enough. Attack speed could be changed, but I don't think it should be done in a ground breaking manner. Say, perhaps the equivalent of a +6 att spd bonus to all sword fionas.
  
  For Evie: I have no experience with this class, nor do I really care about balancing Evie, as she seems like a stable and effective class no matter scythe or staff. Other classes should be modelled towards being just as effective in combat as Staff Evies and Hammer Fionas; I hear Scythe is a little bit inferior to Staff but I have no experience with this class to say anything. :|