No need to repeat that section.
For some reason, I thought we were discussing the origin of life for a second, instead of the creation of matter in general. Derp. So I stated that it would be nonsense for life to have formed under those types of conditions. I don't know why my brain switched gears like that. I need to get to sleep.
You're just asking why and why and why and why and why and why......
And then when we can't explain why, you're like... BAM, GOD. :awesome:
Exactly!
Because logically speaking, everything is based on things that are eternal. Whether that be God or "the four forces" doesn't change the fact that you are now in the realm of religion. If atheists get to ask me where God came from, then I get to ask them where the "forces" come from. Simple as that.
Haha, you certainly raised some interesting points, it was a neat read for me as well. Until next time :P
No, I believe in the possibility-- it's just not my opinion on how things really are. If, however, we are illusory, I do think it would apply to the universe as a whole. As for where the illusion is-- again, the need for that answer is a by-product of human perception. We can't comprehend the idea that we could be nothing but the dreams of the void, but I can't fully discount it, since the laws that we use to argue that idea to be nonsensical are entirely because of things that have shaped our world view-- products of the illusion itself.
However there are no signs to indicate that the beginning, nor the end, are any more than points in a cycle. There's no way for us to calculate the "age" of matter, nor is there a way to determine that it will at some point decay into nothingness.
For what I cut out, I pretty much explained my views on that already. However, for this-- Why not? Take, for argument's sake, my word on the universe being a cycle. Randomized each time by the moments in which no physical laws apply, even the most infinitely unlikely cases will eventually occur in sequence over the course of eternity.
Effectively the idea that if one could randomly hit keys on a type writer, for all eternity, eventually they would type out in full, every book ever written. It would take such a long time that we couldn't possibly hope to comprehend it-- but given unending time and total randomness in the key presses, it would happen.
We are not obsessed with morality and purpose because the universe made us so-- we are because the patterns in our mind, formed over millenniums of evolution, combined with our culture (a product of those same patterns interacting with other beings of similar patterns) demand knowledge, part of which is attempting to know and come to terms with our purpose.
Personally, I see that there is no purpose, and accept that. It's actually an incredible freedom, living for the life you have rather than for the life you may or may not get thereafter, without worrying about fulfilling the "purpose" predestined for you by an omniscient being.
As for the "expansion/contraction process... not currently happening" you have no proof of that. It's expanding, yes, but a basic physics class will teach you that moving away from a central point does not necessarily mean you will do so forever-- gravity will eventually overcome the outward-bound energy of the matter within the universe.
As I have stated (several times) I know that all energy will eventually become waste heat, causing the heat death of the universe-- that includes the energy of the outward-bound planets/galaxies/whatever. Gravity, then, will overcome them and bring them back to the center forming the singularity which repeats the cycle.
Thus the so-called beginning of our universe, then, is simply the result of the "end" of the "previous" universe, just as the "end" of our own will become the "beginning" of the "next" one.
Exactly!
Because logically speaking, everything is based on things that are eternal. Whether that be God or "the four forces" doesn't change the fact that you are now in the realm of religion. If atheists get to ask me where God came from, then I get to ask them where the "forces" come from. Simple as that.
Why thank you, this has been pretty interesting. Please wait warmly as I'm preparing my post.
Right, there might not be away to actually pinpoint a beginning or and end - but I don't think that it removes the possibility of a beginning or end existing.The possibility is there, yes, but not a need.
I won't deny the possibility of chemicals coming together to form amino acids. But for then those amino acids to just combine to make proteins and then complex life forms? ... You can hit that typewriter randomly all you want, but the chance you writing a coherent book is slim to none.Assume once again I'm correct, that the Universe runs its course an infinite number of times, forever cycling. We're just a long stretch of time on an infinite scale-- life HAS happened before and WILL happen again. No matter how low the chances of something occurring, they will occur in our Universe at some point, because that is the nature of infinity.
You say you could if you have an eternity, and I would agree - it might work for the creation of the universe. But we (humans) don't/didn't have an eternity. Take the "scientific" age of the Earth (4.5 billion years) and you can't say that is sufficient for creation via random ... ness?
About your standpoint on morality, is based on the fact that society and human evolution formed as we know as morality. I would have to disagree though.No, there is no universal morality because the universe does not see right or wrong. Morality is of gods and men, and can only be subjective. Just because most people agree x is wrong does not mean it is universally immoral-- it's just a majority.
Take the Nazis for example. (Yes, I know Godwin's law. I'm sorry. I couldn't think of anything else right now) Anyway, If culture determines right and wrong, how could we have judged the Nazis? After all, they were just following their culture's morality. Only if murder is universally wrong were the Nazis wrong. The fact that they had “their morality†does not change that. Further, although many people have different practices of morality, they still share a common morality. For instance, abortionists and anti-abortionists agree that murder is wrong, but they disagree on whether abortion is murder. So, even here, absolute universal morality is shown to be true.
Morality simply was not taught and formed from humanity, I believe it had to have come from someone else (God). Think about it, people are born with a conscience, and we all instinctively know when we have been wronged or when we have wronged others. Even as children we knew the difference between “fair†and “unfair.†We don't need society to tell us that. People that pretty much had isolated themselves from "society" can still exhibit moral beliefs and standards.When we're born, our concept of fair and unfair is based almost entirely on our own needs and wants. If Little Sally take a toy from Little Billy, he sees it as unfair because he wants that toy.
It's funny because I feel as if I have freedom as well. I'm not bound by any rules or rituals in order to achieve heaven. Its impossible for human beings to earn their way into heaven, because we all aren't perfect. True Christians do good things not because they worry about what occurs to them in the afterlife as in to acheive heaven, but because they believe in the ideas and statements that Jesus Christ made about humanity.Some do, some don't. Either way, the burden of morality is still removed.
"[FONT=arial, Helvetica]And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."[/FONT]
Perhaps I have no proof, but that outward gravity won't just suck everything back into once place. At the very least it might halt the expansion, if that's what you meant by "gravity will eventually overcome the outward-bound energy of the matter within the universe."I can see you don't actually quite understand gravity. If the expansion is halted, contraction will happen. Gravity is a force that works across infinite distance. If ever there are so much as two electrons in an endless infinite void, they will be drawn together. The only possible way for expansion to carry on indefinitely is if the initial explosion gave all matter enough energy to reach escape velocity-- which the very presence of the Big Bang would disprove, as energy cannot have been added to the universe.
If gravity did suck everything back into the center and repeating the cycle, that doesn't constitute the universe being eternal. It's more like the universe "dieing" and regenerating itself. In any case, even if it was true that process would surely take such a long time. Our Sun would probably go all supernova by then. :hot:The fact remains that it would be eternal. What you constitute as the Universe being "dead" or "alive" are irrelevant on the scale of the universe. The same matter that has always existed and will always exist repeats endlessly through the cycle of expansion and contraction, making it eternal.
I dunno how you can believe in something you honestly have no proof exists. There's no certainty that god exists (or doesnt, for sake of arguments). But to have such blind faith is just ignorance at it's best.
I'm all for religion as long as it makes people happy, and they choose a better lifestyle through it but honestly religion hardly changes human nature. Even those completely devout to the church still succumb to human nature. The system is flawed no matter how you look at it.
Assume once again I'm correct, that the Universe runs its course an infinite number of times, forever cycling. We're just a long stretch of time on an infinite scale-- life HAS happened before and WILL happen again. No matter how low the chances of something occurring, they will occur in our Universe at some point, because that is the nature of infinity.
Morality is something we grow to understand and work out for ourselves. My morals, for instance, likely do not match yours. If god-given morals were the case, they would be the same. Furthermore, that would be removing the concept of giving us "free will" as is so wholly supported as the reason god never intervenes in our cruel and unfair world.
Also-- you think you're a "True Christian"? I've rather come to like this biblical quote (Mark 16:17-18)
I can see you don't actually quite understand gravity. If the expansion is halted, contraction will happen. Gravity is a force that works across infinite distance. If ever there are so much as two electrons in an endless infinite void, they will be drawn together. The only possible way for expansion to carry on indefinitely is if the initial explosion gave all matter enough energy to reach escape velocity-- which the very presence of the Big Bang would disprove, as energy cannot have been added to the universe.
The fact remains that it would be eternal. What you constitute as the Universe being "dead" or "alive" are irrelevant on the scale of the universe. The same matter that has always existed and will always exist repeats endlessly through the cycle of expansion and contraction, making it eternal.
And no, our sun won't go Nova, it'll basically burn itself out and collapse into a great brown rocky-type thing. No worries though-- there's pretty much no chance of our species surviving that long, much less to witness the final contraction of the universe.
I feel like a majority of this thread shouldn't be in Bean Rua simply because the people who are discussing this topic(very intensely it looks like) are missing out on quite a bit of post count and gold.
GIMME ALL YO GOLDZ WOMAN! It is your job to obey me, a man, anyway.
[SIZE="1"]/jkjk ilulots<3[/SIZE]:cheer:
God made us that way, don't judge.