Human/Elf Knuckles

• Cannibal wrote on 2012-04-12 21:40
  If you guys are really going to have that much trouble staying on topic, we'll just close the thread.
  
  I went ahead and cleaned some of your posts out. Let's try to keep the conversation about the topic this time.
• Blassreiter wrote on 2012-04-12 22:49
  I feel that Pre-Fighter Knuckles are meant for 1v1 No-Heavy Stander enemies, and the only category that this fits in is Dueling. Knuckles are deadly dueling weapons because I consider them Arrow Revolver packed into a fist. If you manage to lock an enemy into your attacks they're most likely screwed especially if you're a strong warrior. I don't know how well Fighter Knuckles are but from videos they seem more usable in all combats due to them actually having KB skills so you're safe from Heavy Stander. Heavy Stander is the scourge of melee. It forces people to abandon regular attack and focus on KB attacks like WM/Smash.
  
  As for Humans being stronger than Giants, I think I've seen that. My highest damage range is around 300~520 or so with my 212 Max BH Ego equipped and the highest Critical Smash I've done was no more than 7k and I've seen a screenie somewhere on Nexon forums with a human Critical Smashing for over 12k. Either I'm doing something wrong or Humans really are stronger. My equips aren't enchanted for damage so that may explain it but do enchants really give humans such a big gap from giants??
  
  And the only QQ I have as a main giant is that we don't have an efficient ranged attack. But until I see the new Throwing Attack in KR I'll still QQ about this.
• Kyubey wrote on 2012-04-12 22:55

  Quote from Blassreiter;837441:

  
  And the only QQ I have as a main giant is that we don't have an efficient ranged attack. But until I see the new Throwing Attack in KR I'll still QQ about this.

  
  
  firebolt and thunder, problem solved.
  About your max, what weapon are you using? 7k smash with 500 max sounds like S type one hand weapon
• Blassreiter wrote on 2012-04-12 23:08

  Quote from Kyubey;837444:

  firebolt and thunder, problem solved.
  About your max, what weapon are you using? 7k smash with 500 max sounds like S type one hand weapon

  
  
  I have both of them Rank 1 and it's still not solving the problem of my party mates Smashing the enemies at a wrong time. The delay from these two spells take a while too while my other party mates are piercing through mobs with Crash Shot/AR.
  
  But really I want Giants to have a useful ranged attack for the same reason that Elves have useful melee attacks. Any lesser between the two is segregation.
  
  Using a 212 Max Battlehammer Ego
• Ylpmis wrote on 2012-04-12 23:16
  I'll try to find the math I did a while back, but it basically shows how much stronger an endgame giant is at melee, with an Iron Mace ego + R6 Warhammer, vs. a human with any of their top tier weapons in both maximum and average damage. As I recall giants don't have a huge edge in damage, but an edge nonetheless, with the added perks of giant-only skills. After all this time that shouldn't really be a debate, so in my follow up I'll just let the math speak.
• Soushi wrote on 2012-04-12 23:23

  Quote from Ylpmis;837463:

  I'll try to find the math I did a while back, but it basically shows how much stronger an endgame giant is at melee, with an Iron Mace ego + R6 Warhammer, vs. a human with any of their top tier weapons in both maximum and average damage. As I recall giants don't have a huge edge in damage, but an edge nonetheless, with the added perks of giant-only skills. After all this time that shouldn't really be a debate, so in my follow up I'll just let the math speak.

  
  
  Giant gets higher multipliers, more melee skills/bonuses, perks, etc.
  
  Strictly speaking of damage and weapon selection, though, giants can either get:
  -A moderate amount of damage higher than humans AND +42% extra critical damage.
  OR
  -A large amount of damage higher than humans.
  
  Either way they choose it's always better than whatever humans can come up with.
• Kyubey wrote on 2012-04-12 23:25

  Quote from Blassreiter;837461:

  Using a 212 Max Battlehammer Ego

  
  
  Make a S-type titanic crocodile/necro broad axe for full swing and switch ego for iron mace and pair it up with an R type might warhammer (can't remember the prefix). Your dmg will go up
• Blassreiter wrote on 2012-04-12 23:27

  Quote from Ylpmis;837463:

  with the added perks of giant-only skills.

  
  
  From experience I rank the skills based on utility:
  
  1. Stomp (ability to use during stun and quick load time)
  2. Throwing Attack (this would have been better if there was no cooldown)
  3. Wind Guard (need I say more?)
  4. Taunt (need I say more?)
  
  

  Quote from Kyubey;837473:

  Make a S-type titanic crocodile/necro broad axe for full swing and switch ego for iron mace and pair it up with an R type might warhammer (can't remember the prefix). Your dmg will go up

  
  
  Working on the Broad Axe and I don't want to ditch my Level 50 Strength BH. I don't even like the idea of Iron Mace either regardless if it's a better ego and whatnot.
• Kyubey wrote on 2012-04-12 23:34

  Quote from Blassreiter;837478:

  Working on the Broad Axe and I don't want to ditch my Level 50 Strength BH. I don't even like the idea of Iron Mace either regardless if it's a better ego and whatnot.

  
  
  Even a secret penetrating lance with oblivion alteration shield does better than battlehammer ego, but then your choice
• Ylpmis wrote on 2012-04-12 23:40

  Quote from Blassreiter;837478:

  From experience I rank the skills based on utility:
  
  1. Stomp (ability to use during stun and quick load time)
  2. Throwing Attack (this would have been better if there was no cooldown)
  3. Wind Guard (need I say more?)
  4. Taunt (need I say more?)
  
  
  
  Working on the Broad Axe and I don't want to ditch my Level 50 Strength BH. I don't even like the idea of Iron Mace either regardless if it's a better ego and whatnot.

  
  
  #0. Charging without a shield.
  
  And also, even though I hate when every character ends up with the same equips endgame, I have to agree with the above posters that if you want to get your damage up... you pretty much want an Iron Mace ego, and R-type broad axe for full swing.
• Soushi wrote on 2012-04-12 23:48

  Quote from Ylpmis;837505:

  #0. Charging without a shield.
  
  And also, even though I hate when every character ends up with the same equips endgame, I have to agree with the above posters that if you want to get your damage up... you pretty much want an Iron Mace ego, and R-type broad axe for full swing.

  
  
  I would favor S-Type broad for FS mostly because with endgame damage, FS crits are overkill outside of very few enemies and the extra non-crit damage could be more beneficial.
• Ylpmis wrote on 2012-04-12 23:52

  Quote from Soushi;837516:

  I would favor S-Type broad for FS mostly because with endgame damage, FS crits are overkill outside of very few enemies and the extra non-crit damage could be more beneficial.

  
  
  I've actually found that with near endgame damage, my R-type crits are just enough (or slightly less than enough) for 1-shotting a lot of elite mobs and much needed in places like Peaca. And non-crit damage is still good enough for hard modes. Any place that's not one of the hardest dungeons out there doesn't really need full swing in the first place. But, to each his own.
• Azareel wrote on 2012-04-13 00:33
  For anyone who still cares about the original topic, Nexon didn't remove the ability to obtain these knuckles in the maintenance.
  Looks like by the time they finally fix it, everyone and their mother's pet iguana will have one, making the patch pointless.
• Ylpmis wrote on 2012-04-13 00:42

  Quote from Ylpmis;837463:

  I'll try to find the math I did a while back, but it basically shows how much stronger an endgame giant is at melee, with an Iron Mace ego + R6 Warhammer, vs. a human with any of their top tier weapons in both maximum and average damage. As I recall giants don't have a huge edge in damage, but an edge nonetheless, with the added perks of giant-only skills. After all this time that shouldn't really be a debate, so in my follow up I'll just let the math speak.

  
  
  Age 17, Warrior Destiny, at level 80/20
  Human: 431 STR (172 max)
  Giant: 451 STR (180 max)
  
  Equips: Oblivion Dexterity, Oblivion Fierce x2, Ancient Ambush, Fleet Viscount, Steel Needle Peaceful = 150 max (both races)
  
  Dual Wield:
  Giant: Iron Mace ego (240) + R6 Willow Horn Warhammer (117) + Blunt Mastery x2 (60)
  Human: Bastard ego (189) + Elsinore (190) + Sword Mastery x2 (40)
  
  Title:
  Giant: Stomp Master (16)
  Human: Shock Master (15)
  
  Giant: 763 dual wield damage average hit, with R6 weighted crit = 1202 avg hit (max)
  Human: 756 dual wield damage average hit, weighted with crit = 1096 avg hit (max)
  
  That is just for a normal hit, not taking into account skill modifiers.
  
  Plus, the math above is very basic, and there's probably a few things I left out, but you get the idea. Giants win. Humans can have their broken swords.
• Soushi wrote on 2012-04-13 01:12

  Quote from Ylpmis;837579:

  Age 17, Warrior Destiny, at level 80/20
  Human: 431 STR (172 max)
  Giant: 451 STR (180 max)
  
  Equips: Oblivion Dexterity, Oblivion Fierce x2, Ancient Ambush, Fleet Viscount, Steel Needle Peaceful = 150 max (both races)
  
  Dual Wield:
  Giant: Iron Mace ego (240) + R6 Willow Horn Warhammer (117) + Blunt Mastery x2 (60)
  Human: Bastard ego (189) + Elsinore (190) + Sword Mastery x2 (40)
  
  Title:
  Giant: Stomp Master (16)
  Human: Shock Master (15)
  
  Giant: 763 dual wield damage average hit, with R6 weighted crit = 1202 avg hit (max)
  Human: 756 dual wield damage average hit, weighted with crit = 1096 avg hit (max)
  
  That is just for a normal hit, not taking into account skill modifiers.
  
  Plus, the math above is very basic, and there's probably a few things I left out, but you get the idea. Giants win. Humans can have their broken swords.

  
  
  Giants also can get 1.25 STR per level at lower ages, which humans cannot get... tipping the damage further in their favor. They also get more max from combat mastery... and you're forgetting that human cannot use Steel Needle or Peaceful due to Rosemary Gloves.
  
  Warhammer should also be able to reach 123 max at r6 due to smith + merchant destiny grade and gem upgrade.
  
  Also, dual s6 warhammers > dual caladbolgs in raw max. Even if other people would want to ignore Iron Mace ego, warhammers alone are pretty awesome in their own right thanks to blunt mastery.