Afterlife

• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 00:00
  I've been listening to a Radiolab segment entitled After Life, and I personally have found it quite interesting. The topics indirectly reference theories of immortality as presented in Meno and other philosophical works, and... its simply fascinating. Various views of what remain for us after we die lay inside— if you have freetime, or need some background noise to listen to as you browse the internet, check it out— and discuss opinions of the afterlife below!
  
  One that I find personally amusing was a theory that we have three deaths. The first is our mortal death, occurring the moment our bodies "die" and we are left with what remains to be a soul. The second death occurs once our body is buried below ground, sending us into purgatory. The third death, however, occurs the moment in which one's name/existence is remembered/spoken for the final time. In this purgatory, people change— while some, without much notability— reach the paradise past the third death, some remain in the "hotel lobby" for hundreds of years. A saint, revered and praised for her works, turned into a sacrilegious and vile woman as the result of being trapped in the realm for hundreds of years. In another corner, a Farmer who drowned remains— a college built years later on his property, where his story is retold by tour guides each and every day...
  
  http://www.radiolab.org/2009/jul/27/
  
  Edit: Please keep the discussion mature here! The goal is to discuss varying viewpoints— a synthesis, if you will; combining ideas, discussing, and relating. Not stating that ideas or opinions are incorrect or stupid!
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 00:08
  Opinions on the afterlife?
  
  ...
  
  Well, there's Heaven - a place of perfection where God lives. And there's Hell, where the original fallen angels (demons) reside.
  So when a human dies, they (as in their soul) can either go to Heaven or Hell - since no other spiritual plane exists.
  
  And since Heaven is a place of perfection, the moment you do something wrong or evil - you can't reside in Heaven.
  
  So the only other option is Hell ... Yep.
  
  Very cheery and wholesome - I know.
  
  
  EDIT:
  
  In any case, I guess I might take a listen. When I have some free time - if I remember.
• Shanghai wrote on 2012-04-23 00:10

  Quote from Episkey;845739:

  Opinions on the afterlife?
  
  ...
  
  Well, there's Heaven - a place of perfection where God lives. And there's Hell, where the original fallen angels (demons) reside.
  So when a human dies, they (as in their soul) can either go to Heaven or Hell - since no other spiritual plane exists.
  
  And since Heaven is a place of perfection, the moment you do something wrong or evil - you can't reside in Heaven.
  
  So the only other option is Hell ... Yep.
  
  Very cheery and wholesome - I know.
  
  
  EDIT:
  
  In any case, I guess I might take a listen. When I have some free time - if I remember.

  
  
  You forgot the good part; getting to Heaven. >:L
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-04-23 00:12
  I prefer the theory of Existance Mortality.
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 00:14

  Quote from Episkey;845739:

  Opinions on the afterlife?
  
  ...
  
  Well, there's Heaven - a place of perfection where God lives. And there's Hell, where the original fallen angels (demons) reside.
  So when a human dies, they (as in their soul) can either go to Heaven or Hell - since no other spiritual plane exists.
  
  And since Heaven is a place of perfection, the moment you do something wrong or evil - you can't reside in Heaven.
  
  So the only other option is Hell ... Yep.
  
  Very cheery and wholesome - I know.
  
  
  EDIT:
  
  In any case, I guess I might take a listen. When I have some free time - if I remember.

  
  
  In which case, we all go to hell. To briefly expand on Meno, and add some additional views to the "heaven" and "hell" views of the afterlife, in the story, Socrates (It was written by Plato about Socrates, I believe...) speaks of Persephone (or, depending on whatever belief you hold, insert your deity(ies) here) rescuing souls from hell and essentially recycling them-- offering each soul a chance once more at life, though they do not recall their previous one.
  
  

  Quote from Chiyuri;845743:

  I prefer the theory of Existance Mortality.

  
  
  Would you care to expand?
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 00:20

  Quote from animeshadows;845746:

  In which case, we all go to hell.

  
  
  Yes. That's the sad reality.
  The moment someone dies, their personality and soul is fixated. As in you can't change that.
  
  How could you, personally, change your past actions - once you were dead?
  
  The simple answer is, you cannot. Which then goes against the 'three deaths" theorem you stated earlier and of course, the existence of Purgatory.
  
  

  Quote from Shanghai;845741:

  You forgot the good part; getting to Heaven. >:L

  
  
  What? Did I hear something .... :what:
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]Not yet. (Ecclesiastes 3:1)[/SPOILER]
• Hannah's Lover wrote on 2012-04-23 00:29
  I don't believe in Purgatory ):
  but it is interesting
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 00:29
  The theorem mentioned was from a topic discussed in the radiolab podcast— it didn't necessarily play off of the existence of a judgmental deity, however it isn't my personal views. What you speak of, however, does reminds me of early Calvinism in Europe, which is another interesting topic.
  
  In the earlier years, Calvinists believed in predetermination— prior to you existing in the mortal realm, God knew if you were going to either Heaven or Hell. While this, and quite possibly your stated theorem, makes it sound as if one can essentially go against essentially every belief, rule, or law— holy or secular— there was another principle instilled; the idea of the "elect." If one was determined by God to go to heaven, they, thus, must live a holy life. However, given that nobody could essentially communicate with God— something that I may create a separate thread to discuss upon nearer the summer— if one believed they were going to heaven (and, let's face it, nobody in this time period wishes to believe they weren't)....
  
  ... yeah.
  
  Edit: Also, just going to add in the brief edit I added to the OP— because usually these threads go south pretty quickly. Please keep the discussion mature here! The goal is to discuss varying viewpoints— a synthesis, if you will; combining ideas, discussing, and relating. Not stating that ideas or opinions are incorrect or stupid!
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-04-23 00:34

  Quote from animeshadows;845749:

  Would you care to expand?

  
  
  That theory is bound to a few things that require to be seen as facts.
  First: soul exist (since many people actually disbelieve that)
  Second: Souls aren't nesescerely a person's consiouness (which a lot of people who believe in soul think it is)
  Third: Soul reincarnation.
  
  Anyway, Existance is to be understood that it is the mix of 3 elements, those 3 factors is what make existance unique from one another. One is the Soul, which is a guide for the development of a person's personnality. It can also carry certain emotions/memories from past life that may affect the development of the host. The second factor is the memories. A different set of memories make a different existance. In a way, every second, your existance change because memories are forgotten and others are made. The final factor which isn't that importent in the actual existance but anyway.. The body. Without a body, you cannot be concious. A body may also affect how you think and react, affect how you develop, a body is also bound to a location, a time and other detaikls of that sort. A Different body can lead to a different existance even if you keep the same soul and memories.
  
  Now while the soul is technicly immortal (but under certain circonstances, maybe not that much immortal) It will go on after the physical death. But the body will die and so will the memories it kept. Out of these 3 elements that make an Existance: both of them are removed. Even if the soul reincarnate, only 1/3 of the person's existance will keep on living.. the remaining 2/3 will be very different and will simply be considered a different existance.
  So pretty much, your Existance is mortal even with reincarnation in mind since the Current "you" will cease to exist.
  
  Some theorise base on that that could could probably preserve your existance if you would to play on the soul's ability to record certain events.. If you could make the soul carry on enough memories to create the next existance close enough to what "you" were, you can theorise a continuation of your existance. The body will be different but with a strong set of memories along the same soul, you can more or less remain yourself.. hence keep a very similar existance.
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 00:41
  ... that's pretty interesting! It brought to mind another theory that I have heard of.
  
  The theorem states that, as opposed to the brain being the central of our bodily senses— the retainer of the information of what we perceive (see, hear, touch, smell, etc.)— the brain actually relays this information to our soul, which is what retains our memories and knowledge. In this sense, the brain is a "decoder" or a "translator" which allows the soul to communicate with our body. Upon our death, when our senses, organs, and finally our brain cease to function, nothing further modifies or interacts with the soul— making our memories and knowledge immortal, but inaccessible.
• Sekwaf wrote on 2012-04-23 00:43
  I don't exactly believe in a cognitive deity, instead it's a universal force in my mind (think Taoism and balance I suppose). We all have parts of this force (souls) that inhabit our bodies, mainly as the electric signals in our brains, hence why we have more 'humanity' and cognition than say, a wild animal or a plant. I would think that when our bodies die, this force will change form, and join the larger collective, literally making it one with everything. I suppose it's similar to the idea of Nirvana.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 00:43

  Quote from Hannah's Lover;845758:

  I don't believe in Purgatory ):
  but it is interesting

  
  
  Why the sad face?
  
  I also agree that it is an interesting concept, but further analyzing it leads to some ... well "interesting" conclusions and contradictions. At least, in my studies.
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845759:

  The theorem mentioned was from a topic discussed in the radiolab podcast— it didn't necessarily play off of the existence of a judgmental deity, however it isn't my personal views.

  
  
  I was aware of that, I just felt the urge to say something about it. That's all.
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845759:

  
  In the earlier years, Calvinists believed in predetermination— prior to you existing in the mortal realm, God knew if you were going to either Heaven or Hell. While this, and quite possibly your stated theorem, makes it sound as if one can essentially go against essentially every belief, rule, or law— holy or secular— there was another principle instilled; the idea of the "elect." If one was determined by God to go to heaven, they, thus, must live a holy life.

  
  
  That seems like a twisted and unbiblical view on the Calvinist's current belief of Unconditional election. I never knew they believed that at first, perhaps it was a separate sect or cult?
  
  Unconditional election is the view that God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will, not on anything inherently worthy in the individual.
  
  So, I don't agree with predetermination. Even if God knows everything (omniscient), that doesn't indicate said thing will actually happen. As you are probably well aware of, a single event can change an entire person's life.
  
  Also, if that was true. Everyone would go to Heaven O_O
  God wouldn't want anyone to go to Hell.
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845759:

  
  However, given that nobody could essentially communicate with God— something that I may create a separate thread to discuss upon nearer the summer— if one believed they were going to heaven (and, let's face it, nobody in this time period wishes to believe they weren't)....
  
  ... yeah.

  
  
  I'll wait until then, but I'll just say this. If people couldn't communicate with God - that would quite defeat the purpose of him existing, right?
  
  Also, I chuckled a bit at your statement concerning heaven.
  
  You would be quite surprised ...
  
  
  EDIT:
  
  I did some reading on Predestination ... Wow. Who knew it caused such a debate :/
  
  I still hold to my original stance, but I did verify - what you said was true.
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 01:03

  Quote from Episkey;845767:

  That seems like a twisted and unbiblical view on the Calvinist's current belief of Unconditional election. I never knew they believed that at first, perhaps it was a separate sect or cult?

  
  
  I no longer have my historical textbook on this, unfortunately. We devoted a month of classwork my Sophomore year— that is what I pulled from it on Calvinism, as we were focusing on the deviation from the Catholic/Christian church. But there was a later chapter which mentioned a shift in beliefs, though it was supplementary, and we didn't focus on it much. Take it with a grain of salt, because I'm not exactly an expert. :x
  
  

  (Wikipedia Source)
  
  The Calvinistic doctrine of predestination is a doctrine of Calvinism which deals with the question of the control God exercises over the world. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

  
  
  

  Quote from Episkey;845767:

  You would be quite surprised ...

  
  At this point I was primarily referring to those of the larger social class— the poor— who practiced at the time. In a period where poverty was high, and quite often people were subjected to either serfdom or large debts (to lords of the land, or... landlords *drumhit*), arguably all many had was the promise of salvation in heaven— that, for keeping their head low, practicing faith, and trying (emphasis on the effort aspect, here) they would be able to experience an afterlife that was far worth the years of suffering they faced.
  
  A later, slightly related poem, would be The Man with the Hoe by Edwin Markham— it actually reverses my earlier statements. While the poor work and suffer, the poem criticizes God— a double meaning, both addressing the deity [i]and the landlords and upper classes— of how He allowed such poverty to happen. It shows a shift towards views against God "after the silence of the centuries," the centuries alluding towards the period of time I discussed prior.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-04-23 01:04

  Quote from Episkey;845767:

  
  So, I don't agree with predetermination. Even if God knows everything (omniscient), that doesn't indicate said thing will actually happen. As you are probably well aware of, a single event can change an entire person's life.

  
  
  If God is Omniscient, he shoudl then be aware of every single possible path reality can take. He should also be aware of that path that will happen.. if he can't know that, then something is outside his realm of knowledge, contradicting one of the descriptive word used to explain "god"
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-04-23 01:13

  Quote from animeshadows;845764:

  ... that's pretty interesting! It brought to mind another theory that I have heard of.
  
  The theorem states that, as opposed to the brain being the central of our bodily senses— the retainer of the information of what we perceive (see, hear, touch, smell, etc.)— the brain actually relays this information to our soul, which is what retains our memories and knowledge. In this sense, the brain is a "decoder" or a "translator" which allows the soul to communicate with our body. Upon our death, when our senses, organs, and finally our brain cease to function, nothing further modifies or interacts with the soul— making our memories and knowledge immortal, but inaccessible.

  
  
  Well, take what I'm going to say as lightly as you want since it's just words coming from a random person on a forum based around a game comunity..
  I've been studying spirituality and psi for many years and from my study/experiments, I found something in human beings that I defined as the soul. It's a form of spiritual energy that is bound to the spiritual system of the body. Unlike normal spiritual energy, that energy doesn't get consume/vanish/return to it's origin. It's eternal. I'm not the best at decrypting spiritual programms but from various test, I deduced that energy has the strong affliction to pulling personality development in certain direction. It also seem to carry traces of knowledge/experience that is outside of the host's life.. You can think of it as past life memories but it's far from been tengible enough to be a memory.
  So I think that this thing in people might really be the "soul" even if it's not exactly what people image as one.
  
  Anyway, you may dismiss my post since I'm only a random person and have no actual proof to bring you.