New weapon, skills, items, and tweaks you'd like to see!~

• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-30 18:33

  Quote from Kapra;1252532:

  None of changes I left in the quote tag make any sense. And I don't think we should change characters just to be representative of every single class. In addition, I don't think Puppeteer should be represented due to the nature of this mission. Jiang Shis using magic strings and a hand cannon? That's like saying Zombies can now have telekinesis and wild animal metamorphosis.

  
  
  Don't know about Jiangshis, don't particularly care. I don't really like the lack of variety in that mission though; there's four fighters (five if counting the scrapped Spiderman), four warriors (one being a lancer), two gunners, two mages, one archer, and one bard. All of them have no differences, aside from skill ranks.
  
  IMO, Imp as a Fighter would make sense, considering how their race is often treated as frail beings.
  
  Also Millia is retardedly weak; Rank C fighter skills and lacks two essential fighter skills. Either buff her or give her a new set of skills.
• Howhurl wrote on 2014-10-30 18:59
  I can't really suggest anything that seems to be a viable system to the currently broken and overpowered aspect of the game, but I have a few ideas from Vindictus for my 2 cents' worth:
  
  -Implementing attack cap (only way to go beyond is reforges)
  -Better mob skills and AI (have mobs target people who are potting, use charge when being shot at, evade, elemental shield, etc)
  -Remove talent stat boosts (including music buff effect/duration and everything else)
  -Remove stat boosts (str boosts def, dex boosts def piercing, etc)
  -Give all dungeon/SM bosses advanced heavy stander
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-30 19:06

  Quote from Howhurl;1252564:

  -Implementing attack cap (only way to go beyond is reforges)

  
  
  Inb4 it gets raised like in MapleStory.
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2014-10-30 20:56
  The issue is that people are too scared (this includes devcat) to make sweeping balancing changes. The following thoughts are ones I've made plenty of before but I'll throw some together. The first thing we need to establish though is that Puppetry is an absurdly broken skillset and any balance discussion should start with "nerfing or deleting Puppetry" or it's hard to take it seriously.
  
  

  -Remove talent stat boosts (including music buff effect/duration and everything else)
  -Give all dungeon/SM bosses advanced heavy stander

  
  
  These are horrible, stat inflation is not good but gutting talent stats hurt classes disproportionately (alchemy barely cares, range is hurt bad, melee barely cares because it runs off high base and multiplicative damage etc) advanced heavy stander is fake difficulty and should be deleted if anything.
  
  The first step to balancing the game is to stop pretending that Puppetry is balanced and gut/delete the skillset until it's reworked. That solves a HUGE amount of the game's issues instantly and makes a lot more content challenging.
  The second step is to gut all the hyperscaling multiplicative damage OR create content that can actually deal with it. I think this issue reached its nadir with Frenzy where you essentially have a 312% multiplier on attacks running off potentially 2k max damage and firing at extremely high speeds. Make Overture and Bone Drag chips give flat max, normalize stat gain to attack gain at 1:4 (Fighter would get about 150 more Will to compensate, and maybe higher multipliers).
  Also switch Ninja's Will and Str gains please.
  
  In general Close Combat (even if it is just Lances) really should not be this powerful while being so strong early. I'd also consider removing Shields entirely - they're useless outside of PVP, except if you're a giant in which case they're free defensive stats.
  Elemental Reforges only need a moderate nerf, maybe to 8% per level.
  Piercing actually isn't a problem but what is a problem is that there's no penalty for choosing lances over other damage options.
  Magic Weapon Mastery needs to be heavily nerfed (50% maybe) , and magic should get % based buff scaling and higher coefficients on its AOEs (Fireball needs buffs no matter what, and even the cast speed issue is managable seeing it railroads you into just having Fireball available) instead of having those buffs compounded as a compensation buff, as well as making Hailstorm more usable without Crisis in some way. This is only as part of a larger campaign of bringing characters in line though. Though the issue with Firebolt is not so much it's power but it's speed, it's far outclassed per hit by nearly all single target DPS options but endgame Firebolt can fire at close to AR speeds).
  Fighter should have lots of single target DPS, nearly as much as range, and more than range for most of the game but gets outscaled at a certain point.
  Range would need a compensation buff but I'm not sure what. I think they should be the highest sustained single target DPS class in the game. I'd also like to nerf Crash Shot. How about Bow Mastery, Crossbow Mastery and Ranged Attack getting higher crit caps and crit modifiers (5% crit cap, 10% crit modifier at r1 each, and the Sniper gives 5% crit cap modifier), Magnum Shot goes to 600% base multiplier?
  Buff monsters base stats by 2x and bosses by 4x and make them more aggressive on higher difficulties. Swarms can still be hard to deal with, especially with puppet gone, and your best means of dealing with them is Alchemy or trying to protect a squishy mage. Add more skills as well.
  
  However by making content more challenging, imo you also need to make content more rewarding. You're not gonna be able to blaze (literally) through Martial Arts in 10 minutes anymore. So I'd increase all mission base rewards by 2-4x, and make Martial Arts 1-7 a single mission that you can use crystals in, then you exit before the final round. This also increases the difficulty as you only get a few seconds to rest between rounds and rewards greater preparation. Also life skills should be buffed but if you want to go pure combat, you shouldn't be railroaded into life skills for stats. So make life skills more economically viable but remove the stat gains.
  
  Basically the goal is to get rid of clearly game-warping skillsets (Puppet), balance out power curves (Close Combat), clearly define skillset niches that they can specialize in while reducing their power in non-niche areas (Range, Magic, Fighter), reduce the impact of % based scaling (every class except Magic/Alchemy), and increase the overall difficulty of the game across the board (more so for endgame content) while making mid and early game rewarding enough that the average player isn't frustrated with slow progress. We should by no means be trying to kick players back to the bad old days of having to take several months to cap a skill, which I think hurt the game community severely by pigeonholing a lot of players away from combat because they lacked the time and money to get even moderately good (Mabinogi should allow you to do what you want but if the combat aspect is so frustrating that players would prefer to socialize to the total exclusion of fighting simply because fighting is too frustrating or you get stuck in a rut because leveling a skill once takes a month, then that should be - and was - fixed.)
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-30 21:48

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1252573:

  Puppetry is OP

  
  
  You're still going on about that? Only Act 7 does absurd damage but the rest of the skillset is fine. As a matter of fact, Act 9 is fucking underpowered.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2014-10-30 22:28

  Quote from Darkboy132;1252579:

  You're still going on about that? Only Act 7 does absurd damage but the rest of the skillset is fine. As a matter of fact, Act 9 is fucking underpowered.

  
  
  Pretty much. Puppetry is awful against raids/disciples and deals piddling damage with all takes aside from Climactic Crash, which is incredible slow to use. Gunslinger outperforms the talent in pretty much every way, aside from the utility that Crisis affords.
  
  The issue with Crisis isn't so much the fault of the skill as it is the fault of our content. It's largely irrelevant in any situation other than the martial arts tournament and certain lord missions, where the enemies spawn in nicely clumped groups that can be instantly grabbed upon summon. Crisis is weak and slow otherwise but it increases the viability of high damage/low area skills like Hail Storm, which can be seen as a good thing.
  
  Piercing and Way of the Gun are definitely overpowered. The first should see a straight nerf (lance skills should get buffed) while the second would be less universally viable if enemies had a decent amount of defense (up to 5000).
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-30 22:47

  Quote from Kaeporo;1252588:

  Pretty much. Puppetry is awful against raids/disciples and deals piddling damage with all takes aside from Climactic Crash, which is incredible slow to use. Gunslinger outperforms the talent in pretty much every way, aside from the utility that Crisis affords.

  
  
  How is gunner doing that? Shooting Rush spam?
• Kelvas wrote on 2014-10-30 22:52

  Quote from Darkboy132;1252594:

  How is gunner doing that? Shooting Rush spam?

  
  
  Shooting rush, bullet storm, and WotG. It has faster AoE and single target DPS is ridiculously high.
  The cooldown on shooting rush is also low.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-30 22:59

  Quote from Kelvas;1252595:

  Shooting rush, bullet storm, and WotG. It has faster AoE and single target DPS is ridiculously high.
  The cooldown on shooting rush is also low.

  
  
  I can understand Shooting Rush and WotG, but not Bullet Storm due to its shit range.
• Kelvas wrote on 2014-10-30 23:02

  Quote from Darkboy132;1252597:

  I can understand Shooting Rush and WotG, but not Bullet Storm due to its shit range.

  
  
  You can use it in a combo.
  You could do something like Crisis > bullet storm, or when there's a group of mobs.
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2014-10-31 00:40

  Pretty much. Puppetry is awful against raids/disciples

  
  
  Aka only some of the content
  
  

  [and deals piddling damage with all takes aside from Climactic Crash,

  
  
  which is an 11-14x damage ratio of that is AOE and is faster than nearly every non gunslinger AOE skill exand gunslinger is a skillset that took pains NOT to give you free max damage while puppetry gives you free damage all over the place (245 marionette damage just from ranking the skills, then another 80 or so just from having a demon bar, this is even before we get into stats;) so while gunslinger outclasses puppetry in most situations if you have high stats, for 90% of the playerbase it outclasses gunslinger by far because so much of the damage is built into the skillset.
  
  Sometimes you only need one skill to do huge damage.
  
  Also Crisis is relevant in any content where there are large non-Heavy Stander mob spawns because of the amount of mob control it offers. Even if content was rescaled, Puppetry's massive utility and AOE burst damage as well as drawing aggro would be a problem regardless. It's just that Crisis isn't AS broken in say, Abyss or Belvast Hostage as it is in Martial Arts.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2014-10-31 03:14

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1252606:

  Aka only some of the content

  
  
  The only proposed future content and one of the best sources of experience, gold, and rare items.
  
  

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1252606:

  which is an 11-14x damage ratio of that is AOE and is faster than nearly every non gunslinger AOE skill exand gunslinger is a skillset that took pains NOT to give you free max damage while puppetry gives you free damage all over the place (245 marionette damage just from ranking the skills, then another 80 or so just from having a demon bar, this is even before we get into stats;) so while gunslinger outclasses puppetry in most situations if you have high stats, for 90% of the playerbase it outclasses gunslinger by far because so much of the damage is built into the skillset.
  
  Sometimes you only need one skill to do huge damage.
  
  Also Crisis is relevant in any content where there are large non-Heavy Stander mob spawns because of the amount of mob control it offers. Even if content was rescaled, Puppetry's massive utility and AOE burst damage as well as drawing aggro would be a problem regardless. It's just that Crisis isn't AS broken in say, Abyss or Belvast Hostage as it is in Martial Arts.

  
  
  Climactic Crash is a good skill but it doesn't make puppetry overpowered. It's heavily shunted by auto-defense and control bars don't provide elemental reforge or piercing bonuses. The fact that puppetry gives a bunch of free damage is a great boon to the talent because it allows players to comfortably progress without requiring extensive resources but it doesn't mean anything more than that looking forward.
  
  I wouldn't be opposed to a Climactic Crash nerf (reduction to 450~500% damage per hit) but it should be coupled with various buffs to the other act skills. Instead of nerfing Crisis, enemies in the martial arts tournament should spawn and agro instantly. As with Climactic Crash, i'm not inherently opposed to a Crisis nerf but it should only reduce the universal effectiveness of the skill; perhaps related to heavy stander or introducing a max target count.
  
  We have far more troubling issues in Mabinogi than puppetry. AOE summon pets, Rain Casting, Lullaby, Crisis Escape, Shadow Bind, etc in the field of threat mitigation and piercing, elemental reforges, Firebolt, Way of the Gun, Blaze, and Battlefield Overture in the field of target elimination.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-31 03:53

  Quote from Kaeporo;1252631:

  I wouldn't be opposed to a Climactic Crash nerf (reduction to 450~500% damage per hit) but it should be coupled with various buffs to the other act skills. Instead of nerfing Crisis, enemies in the martial arts tournament should spawn and agro instantly. As with Climactic Crash, i'm not inherently opposed to a Crisis nerf but it should only reduce the universal effectiveness of the skill; perhaps related to heavy stander or introducing a max target count.

  
  
  Isn't dealing like 1000% still too high for an AoE? Should be around 200% per hit; 600% is pretty fair especially since puppet has combos. Act 7 (and 2) should also either not consume so much durability, or the durability system shouldn't take away points on repair fail.
  
  Defense skill and auto-defense/heavy stander ping definitely need to negate the pull from Act 6, as well as other things.
• Kapra wrote on 2014-10-31 06:49
  As I said, we're all too focused on balancing. There's already three pages of balancing debate since my last post. Instead of trying to think of things that make the game fun, we're trying to think of things that makes the game harder, or more challenging. And I understand, some people find struggle fun, and I am personally a big advocate of equal reward for equal effort, but its starting to dominate our perception of the game. I left this game half a year ago, I come back, and do you know what I see? Nothing new. They've given up on this game. They started recycling events from other servers that aren't even good, they're purposefully putting large gaps between updates, they're spreading their butter thinly on the bread and the only really new thing in months has been the new outfit bags and some new homestead objects, which are event-only, and are obtained by old, temporary methods. At least in early C4 we regularly got new outfits, new albeit noncombat content like Homestead, new areas to explore, even if the rewards aren't great. There doesn't seem to be enough vigor, and Nexon won't change that anytime soon unfortunately. So maybe instead of complaining about how effed up the whole balance/challenge situation was (and I am not except of this, I once complained of and still think Elves are underbalanced), lets try to tell Nexon "I am still here, are you? We still want more!" If you want this game to last, make it last. Tell them what you think is fun, tell them how they can do it, speak out.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1252561:

  Don't know about Jiangshis, don't particularly care. I don't really like the lack of variety in that mission though; there's four fighters (five if counting the scrapped Spiderman), four warriors (one being a lancer), two gunners, two mages, one archer, and one bard. All of them have no differences, aside from skill ranks.
  
  IMO, Imp as a Fighter would make sense, considering how their race is often treated as frail beings.
  
  Also Millia is retardedly weak; Rank C fighter skills and lacks two essential fighter skills. Either buff her or give her a new set of skills.

  
  I can agree on a Millia buff. Rather than editing out melee, I'd like to see is them add new characters to the list. There's too few characters to make trying to get all the characters a challenge, and evening out the chances of getting x class would be good too.
  
  I personally think Imp needs some way to handle the Mouse room. Healer can also use some guidance, but that's moreso a fault of the nature of the class. However, I think Imp and the Healer are the two best classes there are for the Zombie room (that splash damage multi-target smash damage!), wheras other classes like the archers can be really terrible at those rooms. What they need to do is A: Add more characters of the classes there already are, maybe Ninja too but since this is KR content that won't happen, and add more rooms. Rooms that Imp and Healer and others would be better at and others won't. Increase the variety rather than nerfing what we already have.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-31 07:38

  Quote from Kapra;1252648:

  I can agree on a Millia buff. Rather than editing out melee, I'd like to see is them add new characters to the list. There's too few characters to make trying to get all the characters a challenge, and evening out the chances of getting x class would be good too.
  
  I personally think Imp needs some way to handle the Mouse room. Healer can also use some guidance, but that's moreso a fault of the nature of the class. However, I think Imp and the Healer are the two best classes there are for the Zombie room (that splash damage multi-target smash damage!), wheras other classes like the archers can be really terrible at those rooms. What they need to do is A: Add more characters of the classes there already are, maybe Ninja too but since this is KR content that won't happen, and add more rooms. Rooms that Imp and Healer and others would be better at and others won't. Increase the variety rather than nerfing what we already have.

  
  
  I wouldn't mind additional character/classes for Labyrinth. [S]CARAVAN JOE![/S]
  
  Zombie room needs to drop all of their fucking passive defenses. Enlightenment made heavy stander reduce even more damage when ping activated, so that's terribly crippling for the non-melee classes. But in turn they should also utilize those multiple corners more.
  
  -Feast WASD total press count increased from 200 to 300. W is removed, but now contains FJKL; and space (all the basic keys); the 25 spaces at the end is removed. It's too damn easy, but 25 spaces in under 4 seconds can break the spacebar and one's thumbs.
  -Library book collecting increased from 12 to 24 (effectively doubled), increased amount of ghosts, and ghosts can use bolt magic.
  -Library path clearing requires more clicks and has piles of books in the center (without the bookshelves).
  -Rag dolls now spawn farther away from the center, so people don't murder them instantly if they get stuck in place. Tiger dolls now have Level 2 Heavy Stander and Mana Deflector.
  -Halloween "true party" at the beginning occurs after 1 minute instead of 2 minutes.
  -Belisha is fought immediately once all existing party members reach the final chamber.
  -Reward is changed to be given upon reaching the final chamber under an allotted time; the treasure chests change color to reflect the reward based on the allotted time. This is to remove the competition for obtaining rewards.
  --Fine: < 12 minutes.
  --Average: 12 ~ 15 minutes.
  --Crude: 15 ~ 20 minutes.
  ---Belisha will still warp the players to the final room should the mission reach the 20 minute mark, so lingering around gets nothing.