8/16 Season 2 Part 3 Update

• Oizen wrote on 2012-07-15 19:21

  Quote from Yanm;910010:

  Why doesn't he exist to you may I ask? (Unless that was sarcasm).
  
  In the same way that as long as a Sword Lann can continue to time slip dash properly, they won't die, as long as a Karok times Shock Absorb correctly, they won't die either. It's just easier for Karok of course. What other classes in lieu of defense stacking can stand in Ahglan's wm and live to tell the tale for example? Only Karok can, and that's the exact reason why many Karoks were pulling over 50% damage in Ahglan raids. Karok can only continue to attack with Pillar, but once we get Season 2, he'll get weaving frames with smash attacks, allowing him to continue to attack while the raid boss is attacking.

  
  Generally I've always considered Karok incredibly Lack Luster, and thought lann gave more bang for your buck. Could be partially baised by me not enjoying playing the brute slow guy, but whatever.
• Akemii wrote on 2012-07-15 19:30

  Quote from OizenX;910043:

  Generally I've always considered Karok incredibly Lack Luster, and thought lann gave more bang for your buck. Could be partially baised by me not enjoying playing the brute slow guy, but whatever.

  
  
  I'd rather play Brute slow guy then fast guy imo idk i dont really like lanns so imbiased too ok
• Aryiane wrote on 2012-07-15 20:46

  Quote from MareneCorp;909979:

  Basically, no other character requires as much skill as Lann to play.

  
  
  I disagree with this somewhat. I agree that Lann is difficult to play but I don't think that he requires the most skill. I personally think Fiona and Lann have equal skill requirements to be able to play successfully. I don't see as many "pro" Fiona players as I do Lann players in the parties I happen to be in.
• Oizen wrote on 2012-07-15 22:15

  Quote from Aryiane;910089:

  I disagree with this somewhat. I agree that Lann is difficult to play but I don't think that he requires the most skill. I personally think Fiona and Lann have equal skill requirements to be able to play successfully. I don't see as many "pro" Fiona players as I do Lann players in the parties I happen to be in.

  
  
  Not really.
  
  Fiona you just block.
  
  Lann you have to dodge, and you have to dodge in the right direction or else your dodge is meaningless, slip dash doesnt take you that far at the moment so you really need to know the boss in order to dodge it.
  
  I'd say Karok takes more skill then fiona.
  
  Evie being the easiest thing in game. Not entirely sure where Kai falls atm.
• Yanm wrote on 2012-07-15 23:03

  Quote from OizenX;910121:

  Not really.
  
  Fiona you just block.
  
  Lann you have to dodge, and you have to dodge in the right direction or else your dodge is meaningless, slip dash doesnt take you that far at the moment so you really need to know the boss in order to dodge it.
  
  I'd say Karok takes more skill then fiona.
  
  Evie being the easiest thing in game. Not entirely sure where Kai falls atm.

  
  
  You aren't taking into account the unblockables. . .which is pretty common in the raids most of us do now.
• Elleanior wrote on 2012-07-15 23:35

  Quote from OizenX;910121:

  Not really.
  
  Fiona you just block.
  
  Lann you have to dodge, and you have to dodge in the right direction or else your dodge is meaningless, slip dash doesnt take you that far at the moment so you really need to know the boss in order to dodge it.
  
  I'd say Karok takes more skill then fiona.
  
  Evie being the easiest thing in game. Not entirely sure where Kai falls atm.

  
  Do you even play as Evie?
  Do you even play as Evie past lvl 60?
  
  Also, are you reffering to staff or scythe being so easy? They're two completely different playing styles.
  
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]The funniest thing that I find is how the majority of people I see who say "Evie's the easiest class in the game" are always people who main Lanns and have never even tried Evie before. Moreover, if they do, they're almost always staff.[/SPOILER]
• Aryiane wrote on 2012-07-16 01:18

  Quote from Yanm;910146:

  You aren't taking into account the unblockables. . .which is pretty common in the raids most of us do now.

  
  
  This. Fiona doesn't "just block". She has to time all of her attacks perfectly in order to be able to block whenever an attack comes her way and considering she's the slowest class in-game it makes it even more difficult to get in smashes and block when necessary.
  
  Please understand that I'm not saying Lann is easy by any means, I'm only pointing out that Fiona is equally difficult. With these recent updates especially, it's even more challenging for Fiona players.
• Oizen wrote on 2012-07-16 02:26

  Quote from Aryiane;910192:

  This. Fiona doesn't "just block". She has to time all of her attacks perfectly in order to be able to block whenever an attack comes her way and considering she's the slowest class in-game it makes it even more difficult to get in smashes and block when necessary.
  
  Please understand that I'm not saying Lann is easy by any means, I'm only pointing out that Fiona is equally difficult. With these recent updates especially, it's even more challenging for Fiona players.

  
  Lanns have to time their attacks even more so in my eyes anyway, especially spears. Spears are incredibly difficult for me to do anything with because they lack any type of actual survivability at all. The dodge costs way too much stam considering you're probably going to be spinning away all your stamina anyway.
  

  Quote from Yanm;910146:

  You aren't taking into account the unblockables. . .which is pretty common in the raids most of us do now.

  
  *
  Any argument on unblockables can easily be reapplied to unslipables, in which you cannot use slip dash to avoid the attack or attack pattern because theres just to many of them. I find it incredibly hard to utilize any slip dash against combos like Lionotus's Dobule claw + Tail Swipe.
  
  
  

  Quote from Elleanior;910152:

  Do you even play as Evie?
  Do you even play as Evie past lvl 60?
  
  Also, are you reffering to staff or scythe being so easy? They're two completely different playing styles.
  
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]The funniest thing that I find is how the majority of people I see who say "Evie's the easiest class in the game" are always people who main Lanns and have never even tried Evie before. Moreover, if they do, they're almost always staff.[/SPOILER]

  
  
  Yes ._.
  
  and Staff evie. Scythe Evie I'd call moderate, seeing that blink is probably the most forgiving dodge there is, I wouldn't really call her overly difficult when compared to other class.
  
  Harder than Staff? Hell yes.
  Does playing scythe over staff give a pay off in anyway? I'm still stuck on that one. I really like how they handle, but
  they overall come off as weak compared to Staff.
  
  Scythes are just too broken and under powered right now. Maybe I'll give Evie another go after Season 2's buff.
  
  Everyone seems to be getting the odd idea that the phrase "Evies are easy to play" means "You dont need skill to play evie" in which, you're a moron. Every character requires a ridiculous amount of skill to master because this game is incredibly against the players, some more than others. Vindictus is probably one of the most skill reliant MMOs I've played, either skill or just severe memorization of Boss patterns.
  
  However I find Staff evie incredibly easy to play compared to any other class, and Evie pretty much rapes everything pre 60, when the game focuses on repetitive dungeons and not taking out giant bosses
• Aryiane wrote on 2012-07-16 02:44

  Quote from OizenX;910232:

  Lanns have to time their attacks even more so in my eyes anyway, especially spears. Spears are incredibly difficult for me to do anything with because they lack any type of actual survivability at all. The dodge costs way too much stam considering you're probably going to be spinning away all your stamina anyway.

  
  
  I understand where you're coming from. However the spear argument can also be compared to Fiona's Hammer which is even slower than the sword. Lann swords-->less damage but slip dash...Lann spears-->more damage but poor dodge. Fiona sword-->Less damage but quicker blocking...Fiona Hammer-->More damage but infinitely slower blocking.
  
  To me those are very similar when you compare them side-by-side which is why I see them as both being tricky to play with.
• Elleanior wrote on 2012-07-16 03:31

  Quote from OizenX;910232:

  Lanns have to time their attacks even more so in my eyes anyway, especially spears. Spears are incredibly difficult for me to do anything with because they lack any type of actual survivability at all. The dodge costs way too much stam considering you're probably going to be spinning away all your stamina anyway.
  
  *
  Any argument on unblockables can easily be reapplied to unslipables, in which you cannot use slip dash to avoid the attack or attack pattern because theres just to many of them. I find it incredibly hard to utilize any slip dash against combos like Lionotus's Dobule claw + Tail Swipe.
  
  
  
  
  Yes ._.
  
  and Staff evie. Scythe Evie I'd call moderate, seeing that blink is probably the most forgiving dodge there is, I wouldn't really call her overly difficult when compared to other class.
  
  Harder than Staff? Hell yes.
  Does playing scythe over staff give a pay off in anyway? I'm still stuck on that one. I really like how they handle, but
  they overall come off as weak compared to Staff.
  
  Scythes are just too broken and under powered right now. Maybe I'll give Evie another go after Season 2's buff.
  
  Everyone seems to be getting the odd idea that the phrase "Evies are easy to play" means "You dont need skill to play evie" in which, you're a moron. Every character requires a ridiculous amount of skill to master because this game is incredibly against the players, some more than others. Vindictus is probably one of the most skill reliant MMOs I've played, either skill or just severe memorization of Boss patterns.
  However I find Staff evie incredibly easy to play compared to any other class, and Evie pretty much rapes everything pre 60, when the game focuses on repetitive dungeons and not taking out giant bosses

  
  Yeah, that's one thing that I can appreciate well about this game. Having good gear contributes a lot, but isn't necessarily the make-or-break point. This game relies on your ability to play the character.
  
  That asides, play Scythe Evie past level 60 more. Then tell me all about how "easy" of a class she is. :kill:
  Dodging is one thing. Throwing in attacks is another story entirely. Just like Scythe vs. Staff. I think that the Evies should have remained two separate characters... since people will say "Evie" and reffer to either Scythe or Staff, whereas people reffer to Lann as "Spear Lann" or "Sword Lann".
  
  On that note, "easy" is relative. I know many people who cannot use an Evie (Staff or scythe) to save their life, no matter how hard they try. Evies require as much effort into them as everybody else does, so how are they "easiest to play"?
  
  Back on-topic:
  I'm looking forward to Vella/Bella... I'm curious though, how hard it might be for the counter-attacks. They might need really precise timing if it requires a skill to be executed, and if they do, then lag might be an issue.
• Invertex wrote on 2012-07-16 05:57
  There is one problem I have when arguing any form of skill in Vindi. That's gear stacking.
  
  I don't care how good of a player you are, you're still going to do much better with a ton of attack speed, critical, balance, attack, and defense backing you. I know people often say they'd rather have a good player with 12k/6k over a bad player with 14k/9k, but excluding the current set of bosses, you can play pretty mindlessly and often still get away since your stats are superior.
  
  If you honestly want to argue character balance, you need to put them all on equal footing. The footing here was not defined properly, and if we want to consider "end game" balance: then Spear Lann just rolls over everything as you don't need a survival skill when everything barely tickles you.
  
  
  Anyways, the following is mainly comparing Sword Lann to other classes: as Spear Lann is entirely based on my above statement.
  
  Boss design plays a huge factor into what bosses are easy and hard to fight. For bosses like Siglint, it's significantly harder for a Fiona over a Lann. Every move except two (circles, charging headbutt) can be avoided using Slip Dash and proper positioning. However for a Fiona, there are 3 unblockables (circles, grab, electric shots). The last of which is easy to slip though, but requires extremely precise positioning and rolling in order to avoid. Lann's innate mobility also gives him a huge advantage with such positioning heavy bosses.
  
  Episode 10 in general is relatively good for Sword Lanns since most moves have their damage dealt over very brief periods of time: and many of these are unblockables/break amber/can't be shock absorbed. Beokros' freezing ice, Elchulus' rocks, Keaghen's everything. They all force the other class to rely on lackluster dodge options (in essence, everyone plays like Spear Lann half the time: without the DPS).
  
  However Episode 9 had Lionotus who was pretty bad for Sword Lanns since of the rapid attacks. Prior to that there was Thor, who was one of the worst bosses for Sword Lann due to the charge. Unavoiadable set ups like these made Lann a lackluster character for these raids. There's no denying being able to HS/Amber/Shock Absorb these moves made the other characters easier to play against these bosses.
  
  So in a few cases, Sword Lann just wasn't as good.
  
  But you can see how easily this "balance" everyone is so fond of arguing changes as the bosses do. Vindi is a game that hinges more around the boss' actions, not the player's. Everything is so situational that it's not even worth arguing at times.
  
  
  Also I thought Spear Lann was the best at everything until Irukul happened. He's still the fastest trash mob clearer, and he does pretty well against most simple bosses.
• RebeccaBlack wrote on 2012-07-16 11:46

  Quote from Invertex;910388:

  Every move except two (circles, charging headbutt) can be avoided using Slip Dash and proper positioning.

  
  These can both be avoided with slip dash, actually. The charge can be avoided by slip dashing into him, even.
  

  but requires extremely precise positioning and rolling in order to avoid.

  It's harder if you're gonna stay to the side (well, this is situational based on the party, how much you trust them, if anyone "blocks" the dragon from getting to you, etc), but any class can sprint spam towards/under Siglint to avoid the lightning, and it occasionally works by sprint spamming to the side in desperate situations too.
  
  It's really reliable as long as you're in the right place.
• Invertex wrote on 2012-07-16 12:33

  Quote from RebeccaBlack;910492:

  These can both be avoided with slip dash, actually. The charge can be avoided by slip dashing into him, even.
  
  It's harder if you're gonna stay to the side (well, this is situational based on the party, how much you trust them, if anyone "blocks" the dragon from getting to you, etc), but any class can sprint spam towards/under Siglint to avoid the lightning, and it occasionally works by sprint spamming to the side in desperate situations too.
  
  It's really reliable as long as you're in the right place.

  
  
  Welp, shows how bad of a Lann player I'd be.
  
  
  Still, my first reaction as Fiona is that I have to move towards the north or south when Siglint flies in case he's going to start grabbing people. That alone can throw off the positioning for dodging. You have to be somewhat close to where he fires the lightning in order to dodge it. If you're too far away the electric shot is already too low and you'll just roll right into it. So if you happened to be going south, but he starts doing his electric shots from the north, you can only hope that he doesn't target you.
  
  The reliability of being in the right place is the problem. Sure you could always luck out and guess right, or have him not target you, or something else. But Sword Lann can just sit in the middle and slip anything Siglint decides to do in that situation. He's still better suited to most of the Ep10 raids in general, despite them being doable for other characters.
  
  I mean everything is technically doable, but that applies to every character and every situation.
• RebeccaBlack wrote on 2012-07-16 13:23
  Still, I'm just sayin, that's how I do it and it works consistently for me.
  
  I realize Fiona has positional issues and it could mean an instadeath if someone doesn't block/bomb properly/etc.
  
  And every character takes practice. I can do plenty of weird things on Evie and to some extent Lann, but if you ask me to Heavy Stander 10 times in a row I'll probably tumble at least once or twice lmao, even while standing perfectly still.
  
  The problem is all the other characters teach people how not to play Fiona. The roll shouldn't have been there in the first place (or should've been replaced, rather) and guarding should use different controls. Vindictus taught me to hold down the directional key then press space for maximum efficiency, so I'm not just fighting to learn a new technique, but fighting against muscle memory ;__;
• Oizen wrote on 2012-07-16 14:09

  Quote from RebeccaBlack;910492:

  These can both be avoided with slip dash, actually. The charge can be avoided by slip dashing into him

  
  
  Actually slipdashing into almost any attack is generally a lot safer then slip dashing away from it. As of right now Slip dash doesnt take you very far at all, and since lann fights are close range, you're better off trying to get before the beginning of the hit box, rather then try to slip past the end of it.
  
  No clue if this is different in S2.
  
  
  Lann in general fails against anything on Four Legs that turn their entire body into one massive fast moving hit box.
  
  The Ep 10 dragons dont do that, they rely mostly on their respective element attack which are easy to dodge.