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RebeccaBlack wrote on 2012-07-16 15:44
In this case, the charge does have a pretty big hitbox, though. It just works out well.
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foreignreign wrote on 2012-07-16 17:11
However Episode 9 had Lionotus who was pretty bad for Sword Lanns since of the rapid attacks. Prior to that there was Thor, who was one of the worst bosses for Sword Lann due to the charge. Unavoiadable set ups like these made Lann a lackluster character for these raids. There's no denying being able to HS/Amber/Shock Absorb these moves made the other characters easier to play against these bosses.
Actually, not really. For sword Lann, the two-hit claw swipe - > tail wipe-out that Lionotus likes to do can be easily avoided, even if you don't get the "sweet spot" for it. That is, when Lionotus doesn't aim the first claw hit of it, it's still quite possible to dodge it if you get used to it and try it out. The rest of his moves, sans the super roar, are easily slipped.
Spear Lann is a bit of a different story since he absolutely needs to be in the sweet spot to dodge. Sprint smashing into the claw lowers your hitbox just enough to dodge the first hit, which unless you're backed in a corner, should give you enough time to just run away from the next part of it. But spear Lann always has trouble anyway.
Episode 9 is actually amazing for a good sword Lann. Shakarr/BH are a cakewalk, Lionotus there is
some trouble but I've found that sword Lann is pretty good in there, especially if you have ridiculous crit. I know my Lann's a major outlier but... I can actually knock Lionotus off the cliff on my own even in a 6+ man party.
Colru, the only real problem for a sword Lann should be green mini, and even then if someone actually were to pay attention to when the fire aura goes off, it's not too hard to slip (and you can throw DCs in between certain intervals of fire aura). Grey's combos are pretty straightforward as long as you have reaction time and can distinguish the different combos, and gold and orange are obviously tailored to Lann (although I still hate orange). Hell, if you're good at slipping you can actually Slip Dash the entirety of Colru's orb storm.
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Invertex wrote on 2012-07-16 17:44
Well Shakarr, CBH, and Colru are all pretty doable from what I've seen. I wasn't really mentioning those.
The only common complaint I've ever heard was Lionotus, and in general Lionotus is the weirdest boss to face. Still, I'll take your word for it as I actually don't play anything sides Fiona. Too lazy to grind more characters. ;-;
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foreignreign wrote on 2012-07-16 17:51
Most of it is probably just leftover anger from doing SoM Lion when ep 9 just came out.
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Yanm wrote on 2012-07-16 18:56
Quote from Invertex;910388:
There is one problem I have when arguing any form of skill in Vindi. That's gear stacking.
I don't care how good of a player you are, you're still going to do much better with a ton of attack speed, critical, balance, attack, and defense backing you. I know people often say they'd rather have a good player with 12k/6k over a bad player with 14k/9k, but excluding the current set of bosses, you can play pretty mindlessly and often still get away since your stats are superior.
If you honestly want to argue character balance, you need to put them all on equal footing. The footing here was not defined properly, and if we want to consider "end game" balance: then Spear Lann just rolls over everything as you don't need a survival skill when everything barely tickles you.
Anyways, the following is mainly comparing Sword Lann to other classes: as Spear Lann is entirely based on my above statement.
Boss design plays a huge factor into what bosses are easy and hard to fight. For bosses like Siglint, it's significantly harder for a Fiona over a Lann. Every move except two (circles, charging headbutt) can be avoided using Slip Dash and proper positioning. However for a Fiona, there are 3 unblockables (circles, grab, electric shots). The last of which is easy to slip though, but requires extremely precise positioning and rolling in order to avoid. Lann's innate mobility also gives him a huge advantage with such positioning heavy bosses.
Episode 10 in general is relatively good for Sword Lanns since most moves have their damage dealt over very brief periods of time: and many of these are unblockables/break amber/can't be shock absorbed. Beokros' freezing ice, Elchulus' rocks, Keaghen's everything. They all force the other class to rely on lackluster dodge options (in essence, everyone plays like Spear Lann half the time: without the DPS).
However Episode 9 had Lionotus who was pretty bad for Sword Lanns since of the rapid attacks. Prior to that there was Thor, who was one of the worst bosses for Sword Lann due to the charge. Unavoiadable set ups like these made Lann a lackluster character for these raids. There's no denying being able to HS/Amber/Shock Absorb these moves made the other characters easier to play against these bosses.
So in a few cases, Sword Lann just wasn't as good.
But you can see how easily this "balance" everyone is so fond of arguing changes as the bosses do. Vindi is a game that hinges more around the boss' actions, not the player's. Everything is so situational that it's not even worth arguing at times.
Also I thought Spear Lann was the best at everything until Irukul happened. He's still the fastest trash mob clearer, and he does pretty well against most simple bosses.
*Tickles Invertex* :point:
This is part of the reason why I actually hate defense stacking. No matter what, if you have a good amount of defense and avoid certain moves, you'll be fine. There was one Fiona in one of my old Glas runs that had 1 bar and I commented on the one bar. After the raid finished, the Fiona stated, "Oh look, the 1 bar didn't die."
Me: "Oh really? I wonder why. . .it's not because you have 9k defense at all is it?" Regardless, I tend to avoid defense stacking, mostly because I feel that it'll make me less skillful honestly. Being able to just take a hit, instead of thinking to dodge it is what I know will happen to me, and I'll just end up continuing with an attack instead of trying to avoid it.
That's just how I feel about it. I know there are plenty of skilled players that do stack, but as far as Solo's go, I find it much more impressive when they do a solo with less defense, than with 8k+ defense. . .
Quote from foreignreign;910666:
Most of it is probably just leftover anger from doing SoM Lion when ep 9 just came out.
I'm not going to lie and admit I'm guilty of this. God, first day SoM Lio was a nightmare. I recorded the whole run and to top it all off, everyone d/ced from the host at the very end after he died, before it registered most people's rewards and BP. I got my stuff though, unlike my two guildies xD.
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Invertex wrote on 2012-07-16 20:16
I have 9.5k Defense, that doesn't tickle at all! Anyways: the only reason I bother with a stacked set is that parties cause unpredictable AI patterns. Combined with potential lag: having the room for error helps a lot. Room for error is always a nice thing anyways, as everyone makes mistakes at some point.
Solos are a completely different type of game from party play though. A lot of stuff is easier to dodge when you're alone since it's almost guaranteed you can repeat the same motions in order to dodge it every single time.
Of course Keaghen could also just teleport onto you and instantly kill you 10 seconds into a run.
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MareneCorp wrote on 2012-07-16 20:23
Aaaand theeeen you guys are forgetting about those non-hardcore pay2win players. Not everyone is going to be an ideal 9.5k defense or 13.5k/14k attack, the average Lann player is about... 6/7k defense? 12k/13k attack? I'm in this average range and I can do mini green Colru fine, but that doesn't mean the whole population of Lann players will be great at it.
I thought we already had a whole argument in another thread how things are almost never ideal. Don't think big numbers :/
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Invertex wrote on 2012-07-16 20:37
6k/7k is still completely doable. You won't be soloing or being top damage, but it's completely survivable with minimal number of deaths.
Stacked defense numbers were really only brought up in the last two posts anyways, before that I was arguing just general gameplay things. Everything except the two above posts still apply to 12k/7k players. Sword Lann still has an easier time mitigating damage against certain bosses, Fiona/Evie/Karok against others.
The point is if every boss were like Thor, Lann would be a very bad character. If every boss was like Siglint, Lann would be the best character. In my opinion the game is still fairly balanced at this point, provided you're willing to go hybrid and take the more efficient option. The S2 changes aim to make it so you don't have to go hybrid, but the number of changes involved makes it far too hard to guess anything theoretically.
Of course it's been live in KR for some time, but I haven't bothered looking into it too much.
Now hopefully Vella finds some sort of niche within all this as well. New boss design does open some things up.
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MareneCorp wrote on 2012-07-16 21:00
[SIZE="1"]This is why Invertex is my favorite mod :D[/SIZE]
A terrible (type of character) isn't the same as a terrible (type of character), neither is the best, say, Lann, going to be equal to the best... Evie/Fiona/Karok.
Was originally going to type a long post here but it ended up going in circles. I'll look into skill ceilings and floors for each of the characters, including my guesstimate of Vella's skill ceiling+floor for now.
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MareneCorp wrote on 2012-07-16 21:00
[SIZE="1"]This is why Invertex is my favorite mod :D[/SIZE]
A terrible (type of character) isn't the same as a terrible (type of character), neither is the best, say, Lann, going to be equal to the best... Evie/Fiona/Karok.
Was originally going to type a long post here but it ended up going in circles. I'll look into skill ceilings and floors for each of the characters, including my guesstimate of Vella's skill ceiling+floor for now.
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Elleanior wrote on 2012-07-16 21:32
Btw, what's the standard DEF for Evies? I see lots of StEvies with 14k MAtk and 3k def, and plenty enough ScEvies with 12k MAtk/Atk and 5k def.
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Excalibur wrote on 2012-07-16 21:36
Shouldn't there be an official thread of class discussions?
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Invertex wrote on 2012-07-16 21:47
Evie tends to range from 2.5k-5k depending on set and enhancement level. Anything higher is usually not considered viable unless you get 8k-9k by being a plate Evie.
And the class discussion only tends to come up whenever major updates like new characters and rebalances: the topic would die for a few months until some update comes up and it'll get some activity. It's not worth making a sticky just for that.
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Oizen wrote on 2012-07-17 01:42
Quote from Invertex;910811:
Evie tends to range from 2.5k-5k depending on set and enhancement level. Anything higher is usually not considered viable unless you get 8k-9k by being a plate Evie.
And the class discussion only tends to come up whenever major updates like new characters and rebalances: the topic would die for a few months until some update comes up and it'll get some activity. It's not worth making a sticky just for that.
I'm not really sure why they allow Evies to wear plate. Would make a lot more sense if they werent allowed to do so.
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Kollin wrote on 2012-07-17 01:52
Quote from OizenX;910962:
I'm not really sure why they allow Evies to wear plate. Would make a lot more sense if they werent allowed to do so.
I only see having defense as good if you are a scythe user, since you are in close combat.