I'm gonna sound crazy, but bear with me...

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Kaeporo wrote on 2013-06-23 21:52

The sheer diversity of religion is its own disproof.

Honestly, though...what does it matter? These discussions ultimately end with one side declaring faith and the other demanding evidence. If it improves your quality of life and it's not hurting anyone, who gives a shit?

I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist (and that will never change) but I have a jesus fish on the back of my car as a sign of humility. It's not shameful, it's a reminder of the duality of man. We can coexist with people who are different from us.

Good luck Phunkie. Do remember that you faced diversity challenges growing up. Should you ever decide to adopt, please don't raise child into a household which won't accept it for being different.
Phunkie wrote on 2013-06-24 06:20

Quote from Kaeporo;1111134:
The sheer diversity of religion is its own disproof.

Honestly, though...what does it matter? These discussions ultimately end with one side declaring faith and the other demanding evidence. If it improves your quality of life and it's not hurting anyone, who gives a shit?

I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist (and that will never change) but I have a jesus fish on the back of my car as a sign of humility. It's not shameful, it's a reminder of the duality of man. We can coexist with people who are different from us.

Good luck Phunkie. Do remember that you faced diversity challenges growing up. Should you ever decide to adopt, please don't raise child into a household which won't accept it for being different.

Hell yeah!

A relationship with a higher power is definitely a personal relationship. One can't dictate what you should believe or not, or what others should do or not. I'm gonna raise my kids with love and discipline (that means smacking them when they act up, 'cause I believe that's the right thing), but despite our family traditions or what they're accustomed to do, I'll always encourage them to seek more answer and seek more knowledge. Knowledge is power.

And this doesn't just come with religion. Jobs too. If I raise a son and he decides to venture into porn for a little bit (this example is a bit extreme), of course I'm gonna be upset, but what can I do besides just keep loving him? If there's anything to learn from any (or most) religions is just to love. Everybody on Earth, despite who they are, where they come from or how they've been brought up, can come together halfway by just agreeing on that one thing: it's important to love.

Just try to love others. That's it.

There's this part of the Bible, which I have some trouble still understanding ('cause I'm not really a Scriptures kinda guy), that says when you can't love if you don't know God. This is kinda cool. :) It may mean that maybe, just maybe all of us who love kinda know and feel God in our own personal way and we may not even know it. We may not even have the choice to acknowledge it because we've never understood it in the way that religion that shaped God over the centuries. Maybe we accept it in our own personal way.

1 John 4

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

On the diversity issue, I'm definitely gonna adopt kids of different backgrounds and races too, so that's gonna be interesting, haha.

Forget religion. Forget church traditions. Forget what "righteous" Christians say. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Researching this religion for months now and going to this amazing church as well has led to me to believe that the message is all about love.

:XD:

If there ain't a God and I die and nothing else happens afterwards, I think I will have still lived a successful life just doing good and spreading joy, as I've done for so long, haha. You guys already know me as Joel, Phunkie, that crazy kid. This ain't really out of the ordinary. :)
Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2013-06-24 20:46

Quote from Hanna;1111128:

you've never read the old testament, have you?

Parts of it. I actually went to a church for a week when I was 10.

I remember there being a LOT of death, and plagues, and God just generally being a dick. "Oh, you ate an apple? Fuck off and go suffer for all eternity. Fuckin' eatin' my apples. You're lucky i don't smack a bitch."
Phunkie wrote on 2013-06-24 22:33

Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1111480:
Parts of it. I actually went to a church for a week when I was 10.

I remember there being a LOT of death, and plagues, and God just generally being a dick. "Oh, you ate an apple? Fuck off and go suffer for all eternity. Fuckin' eatin' my apples. You're lucky i don't smack a bitch."

There's also a lot of people getting blessed and lucky and being praised by God, etc.

In both the Old and New Testament.

A lot of people think God's wrath is unfair, and it is when you don't put it in context. Think of God as a parent. Was it unfair for your folks to beat the crap out of you when you were young? That's something for a person to answer on his or her own. The common answer would be probably be no though.

God is love, however. He wants the best for people and loves us, even when we are being assholes. He wants us to be better every day but understands that it's hard since we ain't perfect, yo.

The Bible is a normal depiction of an every day life, IMO. People die a lot everyday, for selfish reasons, because of disease, because of shit they shouldn't be doing. Jesus came because he knew we needed someone to show us the right way, hence why it's good to live like him. No judging others, loving everyone, forgiving folks. It's a really hard, unrealistic life (since we ain't God and so we can't do this perfectly), but the aim isn't to be perfect, but to strive to be better.

I sound crazy, haha. But I'm speaking as if I'm interpreting the Bible as true when I speak like this. There's a lot of parts of it that I have yet to understand, but I think Jesus' message is really straightforward and true.
Chiyuri wrote on 2013-06-24 22:36

Quote from Phunkie;1111522:
There's also a lot of people getting blessed and lucky and being praised by God, etc.

In both the Old and New Testament.

A lot of people think God's wrath is unfair, and it is when you don't put it in context. Think of God as a parent. Was it unfair for your folks to beat the crap out of you when you were young? That's something for a person to answer on his or her own. The common answer would be probably be no though.

God is love, however. He wants the best for people and loves us, even when we are being assholes. He wants us to be better every day but understands that it's hard since we ain't perfect, yo.

The Bible is a normal depiction of an every day life, IMO. People die a lot everyday, for selfish reasons, because of disease, because of shit they shouldn't be doing. Jesus came because he knew we needed someone to show us the right way, hence why it's good to live like him. No judging others, loving everyone, forgiving folks. It's a really hard, unrealistic life (since we ain't God and so we can't do this perfectly), but the aim isn't to be perfect, but to strive to be better.

Based on the Christian religion only throught.
Phunkie wrote on 2013-06-24 22:41

Quote from Chiyuri;1111525:
Based on the Christian religion only throught.

Yeah, that's what I'm reading, so that's what I'm basing it on. It doesn't mean that I'm not open to hearing arguments from other religions or other religious, holy texts. It doesn't mean I'm not open to hearing from someone who doesn't believe in God or who believes in universalism (all religions lead to God, etc.) or humanism (one can be good without God).

Kinda like if I came from a culture that used kilometers instead of miles, I'd prob based all my measurements in km instead of miles. I'm still open to miles, however.
Chiyuri wrote on 2013-06-24 22:48

Quote from Phunkie;1111526:
Yeah, that's what I'm reading, so that's what I'm basing it on. It doesn't mean that I'm not open to hearing arguments from other religions or other religious, holy texts. It doesn't mean I'm not open to hearing from someone who doesn't believe in God or who believes in universalism (all religions lead to God, etc.) or humanism (one can be good without God).

Kinda like if I came from a culture that used kilometers instead of miles, I'd prob based all my measurements in km instead of miles. I'm still open to miles, however.

just adding a small detail that Jesus isn't only present in the christian religion.
Phunkie wrote on 2013-06-24 22:49

Quote from Chiyuri;1111530:
just adding a small detail that Jesus isn't only present in the christian religion.

Yeah! That's how much of an impact he had.
Chiyuri wrote on 2013-06-24 23:02

Quote from Phunkie;1111532:
Yeah! That's how much of an impact he had.

Yep.. too bad the truth he came to give people was corrupted and turned into something compeltly against what he came here for in the first place.
Kenny? wrote on 2013-06-25 03:39

Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1111480:
Parts of it. I actually went to a church for a week when I was 10.

I remember there being a LOT of death, and plagues, and God just generally being a dick. "Oh, you ate an apple? Fuck off and go suffer for all eternity. Fuckin' eatin' my apples. You're lucky i don't smack a bitch."

God is a perfect (from what I believe in). Because He is perfect, he has to be just- completely fair. You get what you deserve, it's equality vs justice. God would love for us all to be great and with Him, all being lovely, but because we sin, He can't just do that. He has to be completely fair to us, it's part of being perfect. Just means doing it right, not compromising.
Murasaki wrote on 2013-06-25 04:05

Quote from Yoorah;1110606:
Just thought I'd point out that this isn't logically sound. We know for a fact that Santa doesn't exist, but we cannot say the same with certainty about the possible existence of a higher being. It's more logical to remain open-minded.

I'm not religious myself but I think the social and cultural aspects of religion can be truly wonderful.

Realize that I'm not doing this by choice. My brain simply will not let me believe in any sort of god. After realizing that I was beginning to question my religion, I clung to the idea of God because I wanted something to cling to when it came to things like death and what seems like injustices in the world. Religion can be wonderful. And it can be one of the worst things in the world.

Like I said, I don't care what other people believe.
I just...can't believe in it the same way they can. My brain will not let me. It's like trying to convince myself that I can fly without wings. My brain just won't let me. Lack of proof doesn't mean he's not there, but it doesn't mean he is there either. That argument has some kind of basis, but having something to go on doesn't make it convincing.

You can convince me very easily that slapping me will hurt, because you can simply slap me. I can believe in the wind even though I can't see the wind itself because I see its effect on other things, and feel it against my skin. I don't see the effects of God on things the way other people do. To me, it's just the universe doing it's thing, whatever it is. If the universe was somehow aware of itself, then that's what I would call "God", because everything we do is tied to its laws.

To explain the Santa thing specifically, though...
It's things like Santa...and the tooth fairy, actually..

Let me put it this way: Santa and the Tooth Fairy both have pretty specific roles, and their powers, as fantastical as they can be seen, are still on a much lesser scale than the powers of good. Eventually as I grew up, I came to realize that even these simple little powers didn't actually exist. My brain began to question things. "If all of these adults lied to me about these little things, what else could they get me to believe?" It was also at around that point that I began to realize that not all aspects of religion were positive. Before this, I had been a very proud Catholic. I did my first communion at the age of 8, and I would make sure to do it every single Sunday for ages. Now, being in a church makes me feel ill. I can't stand some of the things that are said and sitting there when I don't believe much of what is being said makes me feel bad, because someone else could benefit from having my seat.

I don't go around trying to convince people that there is no god. I just simply state why I don't believe in one. Sure, that's not the entirety of it, but I just really don't get along with the whole religion or god thing.
Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2013-06-25 06:14

I read a book once where God and the Devil were actually buddies and the whole world was just a game to them that they were placing bets on to see who would win, good or evil.
Phunkie wrote on 2013-06-25 06:45

Quote from Murasaki;1111657:
Realize that I'm not doing this by choice. My brain simply will not let me believe in any sort of god. After realizing that I was beginning to question my religion, I clung to the idea of God because I wanted something to cling to when it came to things like death and what seems like injustices in the world. Religion can be wonderful. And it can be one of the worst things in the world.

Like I said, I don't care what other people believe.
I just...can't believe in it the same way they can. My brain will not let me. It's like trying to convince myself that I can fly without wings. My brain just won't let me. Lack of proof doesn't mean he's not there, but it doesn't mean he is there either. That argument has some kind of basis, but having something to go on doesn't make it convincing.

You can convince me very easily that slapping me will hurt, because you can simply slap me. I can believe in the wind even though I can't see the wind itself because I see its effect on other things, and feel it against my skin. I don't see the effects of God on things the way other people do. To me, it's just the universe doing it's thing, whatever it is. If the universe was somehow aware of itself, then that's what I would call "God", because everything we do is tied to its laws.

To explain the Santa thing specifically, though...
It's things like Santa...and the tooth fairy, actually..

Let me put it this way: Santa and the Tooth Fairy both have pretty specific roles, and their powers, as fantastical as they can be seen, are still on a much lesser scale than the powers of good. Eventually as I grew up, I came to realize that even these simple little powers didn't actually exist. My brain began to question things. "If all of these adults lied to me about these little things, what else could they get me to believe?" It was also at around that point that I began to realize that not all aspects of religion were positive. Before this, I had been a very proud Catholic. I did my first communion at the age of 8, and I would make sure to do it every single Sunday for ages. Now, being in a church makes me feel ill. I can't stand some of the things that are said and sitting there when I don't believe much of what is being said makes me feel bad, because someone else could benefit from having my seat.

I don't go around trying to convince people that there is no god. I just simply state why I don't believe in one. Sure, that's not the entirety of it, but I just really don't get along with the whole religion or god thing.

Church and religion =/= relationship with God.

The relationship, of course, is personal. Church and religion corrupts stuff with traditions and unnecessary rules. When you put rules to a God, you necessarily limit that God and someone along the way gets excluded from being able to enjoy the blessings from that same God, which is unfair.

Forget names like Catholic, Christian, Pentecostal, etc. Even Muslim, Jew, etc.

God doesn't favor anyone, he loves everyone, haha.

I dunno. I always believed in karma, or the balance of good and evil in the world. And there's so much bad in this world. Some people suffer and suffer and are genuine good folk and it seems like they never receive any good while on this Earth. An existence of a God who judges everyone fairly and compensates everyone fairly makes sense when thinking about how many people suffer at the hands of others daily. I know it ain't Christian to say that all good people go to Heaven, since that's salvation by works, but I don't necessarily believe that all those who do not actively (emphasis on actively) accept Jesus Christ go to hell. They are both just two extremes to me. But that's my opinion.

I think the two greatest commandments that Jesus said, love God and love people, are the two greatest things we should follow. If we don't know God, because of ignorance or misinformation or because of influence from the corruption of God's image by people, I think a fair God makes up for that somehow, somewhere along your life. If anybody gets saved at all, believer or not, Christian or not, etc., I do believe it is only and only by God's mercy and grace. You can't work your way up to God, but it doesn't mean that all the good things you do in this world are unseen by Him.

Love is a great way to think about God.

How do you know love exists if you can't touch it or see it or smell it? You feel it.

It may seem a little crazy to say this, and it is, but I've felt the presence of God in my life before. So that's why I believe it. I could be absolutely wrong, but it would only be such a beautiful mistake which has led me to have so much hope for the world. So where's the loss?

:)

I feel ya on the Santa Claus example. The reason why I used to haaaaaate religion and Christians before was because of this same let down. If Santa Claus wasn't real, how could God be real, I asked myself? Same example! It was so hard to overcome this disappointment, but reading and reading and researching extra-biblical sources has really led me to love the message of Jesus. No amount of studying or reading though could change my mind.

It happened the day I felt God's presence in my life. I felt loved.

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