What's one thing you wish didn't exist in Mabinogi?

• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-18 20:48

  Quote from Bunny;1207501:

  [FONT="Arial"]35 Fine reforges: 6-8m
  Difficult r4 ES: ~20m
  
  Are you sure enchants aren't as "risky" as reforges?
  
  You can spend millions of gold on reforges and not get anything for your skillset. (Yeah, some people have spent 100m+ to reforge one item.)
  For most end-game enchants, you must use enchant protection pots which are expensive per try. (Given that you're not blowing cheap items up, but rather good already-reforged gear.) And let's not forget about ancient magic powder costs.
  If you fail 10 times (which by the way, isn't unheard of for r5+ enchants), that's already about 80k NX. And this would just be for one protected item.
  
  Oh yeah, and let's not forget about enchants with large gap rolls, much like reforge rolls.
  
  You can get lucky with reforges OR enchants, and likewise for failing.
  
  Risk and benefit does not really play so well here, it's more about RNG.
  
  Lucky = Cheap benefit
  Unlucky = Expensive benefit
  
  I don't really see how your logic is working here.[/FONT]

  
  
  I apologize if I was unclear. Allow me to rephrase myself.
  Let's say you buy a cheap Short Sword from Nerys. You decide to make that stronger (let's ignore upgrades).
  
  If you enchant it (even with a rF "Fine" enchant), there can be two outcomes. One, you will get the enchant on successfully, or you might fail and lose the durability.
  Now let's assume you want to reforge (as in, more than just the normal reforge) that NPC Short Sword for whatever the hell reason you have. Is there at any point you would end up with anything LESS than the NPC Short Sword?
  
  That's what I mean by risk: its comparison with what you had before.
  Now take that on a larger scale and consider... I don't know, a pre-forged r1 HLB that we had from gachas a while ago. Same thing.
  
  I'll be fair and also acknowledge that "rolling" reforges is also risky (Note that some enchants will have "rolls" as well). However, it'll always be better than what you had before, aka an unreforged weapon. There's no chance to "fail" a reforge.
  
  Think about it this way:
  Reforging is like playing a $1 million lottery where you will at least walk away a consolation prize: $100
  Enchanting is like playing that $1 million lottery, except you have a chance of not getting anything.
  
  (Also note that I don't factor in "prices of reforges or enchants" anywhere in my argument. The moment you try to bring this element in, you're deviating from the original debate)
  
  

  Quote from echox;1207753:

  Giants. They smell funny.

  
  
  This made me giggle.
• alwmiioktm wrote on 2014-03-19 07:07

  Quote from Chihaya;1207819:

  I apologize if I was unclear. Allow me to rephrase myself.
  Let's say you buy a cheap Short Sword from Nerys. You decide to make that stronger (let's ignore upgrades).
  
  If you enchant it (even with a rF "Fine" enchant), there can be two outcomes. One, you will get the enchant on successfully, or you might fail and lose the durability.
  Now let's assume you want to reforge (as in, more than just the normal reforge) that NPC Short Sword for whatever the hell reason you have. Is there at any point you would end up with anything LESS than the NPC Short Sword?
  
  That's what I mean by risk: its comparison with what you had before.
  Now take that on a larger scale and consider... I don't know, a pre-forged r1 HLB that we had from gachas a while ago. Same thing.
  
  I'll be fair and also acknowledge that "rolling" reforges is also risky (Note that some enchants will have "rolls" as well). However, it'll always be better than what you had before, aka an unreforged weapon. There's no chance to "fail" a reforge.
  
  Think about it this way:
  Reforging is like playing a $1 million lottery where you will at least walk away a consolation prize: $100
  Enchanting is like playing that $1 million lottery, except you have a chance of not getting anything.
  
  (Also note that I don't factor in "prices of reforges or enchants" anywhere in my argument. The moment you try to bring this element in, you're deviating from the original debate)
  
  
  
  This made me giggle.

  
  Why wouldn't you include the prices for both into consideration? You're not going to get 35 fine reforges for free (unless ur pulling some snakey shit) likewise you will also be taking the chance of spending NX on enchant protection for high end enchants. While it is true that reforges only add to gear, a majority of the time the bad rolls/ useless reforges ultimately make no noticeable difference in your gear. While enchants can fail, reforges can also "fail" in the case that you roll something completely useless to the weapon you are using or just straight trash [S]Like firebolt max damage 20 on an HLC[/S] totally making the expenses put into this gear a waste. If you want to be knit picky about it, which seems like is the case; yes reforges don't ruin your weapons dura/ destroy it, but the monetary investment is what makes reforging a risk, considering a player actively pursuing reforges on their gear will be shelling out 2 to 3 times more than to buy these end game enchants. Unless you happen to be incredibly lucky, but that just undermines the point I'm trying to make.
• Kapra wrote on 2014-03-19 08:27

  Quote from Chihaya;1207819:

  (Also note that I don't factor in "prices of reforges or enchants" anywhere in my argument. The moment you try to bring this element in, you're deviating from the original debate)

  
  Why WOULDN'T you talk about prices and obtaining? That's like the most important point in reforge and enchant compare and contrasting. I will deviate, then.
  
  

  Quote from Chihaya;1207819:

  I apologize if I was unclear. Allow me to rephrase myself.
  Let's say you buy a cheap Short Sword from Nerys. You decide to make that stronger (let's ignore upgrades).
  
  If you enchant it (even with a rF "Fine" enchant), there can be two outcomes. One, you will get the enchant on successfully, or you might fail and lose the durability.
  Now let's assume you want to reforge (as in, more than just the normal reforge) that NPC Short Sword for whatever the hell reason you have. Is there at any point you would end up with anything LESS than the NPC Short Sword?
  
  That's what I mean by risk: its comparison with what you had before.
  Now take that on a larger scale and consider... I don't know, a pre-forged r1 HLB that we had from gachas a while ago. Same thing.
  
  I'll be fair and also acknowledge that "rolling" reforges is also risky (Note that some enchants will have "rolls" as well). However, it'll always be better than what you had before, aka an unreforged weapon. There's no chance to "fail" a reforge.
  
  Think about it this way:
  Reforging is like playing a $1 million lottery where you will at least walk away a consolation prize: $100
  Enchanting is like playing that $1 million lottery, except you have a chance of not getting anything.
  

  
  Your argument is under two assumptions. One of them is justified in that you still get some effect if you don't get what you want. On the other hand, the massive durability loss, getting "LESS than the NPC Short Sword". To balance Reforges and Enchants doesn't necessarily mean Enchant is justified in it's massive range of durability loss and Reforge is unjust in not having such a thing. I hope you find that most players think the opposite, that Enchant durability rate should be nerfed.
  
  Here is the imbalance in Enchants and Reforges and what would cause a dilemma in balancing them, if we even want them balanced:
  

  
  
  • Enchants must be earned from dungeons, events, monster drops, etc.
    
  • Reforges are purely from the item shop, and sometimes events as well.
    
  • Enchanting utilizes some skill, Reforges do not.
    

  
  Now for this argument, what is in question is if those two sources would be equal. Before I get to that, I would like to discuss if the results are proportional. They may or may not be because Enchants have a failure rate, whereas Reforges have two rolls. Both Enchants and Reforges have an amount of stat roll for most effects, so these two cancel each other out in my opinion. So, an Enchant failure may result in a durability loss or item destruction UNLESS you use a specific potion beforehand, however, this potion costs a lot more than reforges. Everyone agrees the potion should be reduced in price. The other issue (I'm getting repetitive, I know) is that Enchants provide nothing on failure. We do not want Reforges to be nerfed if you don't get the result you want, and obviously that doesn't even make sense, so it could be balanced by buffing Enchant so that each failure of an enchant increases the enchant multiplier (even past 90%) upon each subsequent failure.
  
  With the above points, I think the risks and rewards would be justifyingly equal, if it weren't for the method to obtain Enchants and Reforges. Enchants would require grinding dungeons, missions, events, among other content. Reforges require simply buying, assuming Enchant Potions just drop down to the price of about the price of a Reforge Kit, this would be imbalanced. This seems to be the main imbalance and I personally cannot think of a way of balancing reforges (like making requirements before an item can be reforgeable, increasing the price of reforge kits, reducing the difficulty of obtaining enchants, etc) that won't make a portion of the playerbase market (or me for some of which) angry.
  
  Enchants have one more thing that Reforges don't, Enchants are skill dependent for good rewards, Reforges have no such risk. Although I would argue, after Wine Making, Enchanting is the single most stupidest skill in the game.
  
  Both of which CAN be rebalanced given effort, and are not beyond hope to the point where its impossible to balance them after release from test server, it is not beyond hope. So I do not see Reforges (or Enchants) as a valid argument for something that shouldn't have existed at all (then again this is what you wish, not what shouldn't).
  
  I hope I didn't sound like an a**hole, I kind of feel like I did but I stand by my points.
• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-19 14:41

  Quote from Kapra;1207971:

  I will deviate, then.

  
  
  Point taken, but the sole reason why I said "prices are left out" is because it will make the argument even more complicated than it should be.
  Fine reforges cost 1300 NX or approximately 250k each on Tarlach. Does the risk of "low rolls" or benefits of "high rolls" change with how you bought your reforge? Probably not...
  Enchants vary in price, but if you obtain it yourself, then it's "technically" free.
  But if I buy it for 10m, does that mean I'll have a higher chance of succeeding the enchant?
  
  My argument was that enchanting has a fair (not absolute) balance of risk and benefits, while reforging does not. Deviating from this argument is completely up to you, but if you feel like adding the "price" element to our debate, I would have to ask you to include every single freaking theoretical possibility associated with it, THEN make a comparison/argument.
  
  I'm sure, however, that
  

  [Image: http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/284/529/e65.gif]
• Paradise wrote on 2014-03-20 15:04
  things i agree on this thread
  
  -potions (cooldown pls)
  -pet skills when summoning (pet summoning cooldown maybe? what about 5-10 seconds)
  -Durability loss (sometimes repairs fail too much, just fix it a little)
  -Gacha weapons (give gacha weapons a high repair price (x5-x10), and smithed weapons a low repair price (x1))
  -**Reforges (not taking it off, but increasing repair rates for every rank +reforge lvls)- do not eliminate reforges, since it gives a good income to nexon, and we are getting a lot of things for free thanks to it.
  
  i add:
  
  -climactic crash (make it 1 hit instead a 1-3 hits skill)
• Tropa wrote on 2014-03-20 15:10
  I can't believe I forgot this, but Act 6: Crisis, I don't want it "removed", I'd rather it become percentage based like lullaby, or fail to pull in targets that ping.
  
  This skill breaks any type of multi-aggro challenge this game has to offer.
  
  
  
  If they do nerf Crisis, nerf Rain Casting's de-aggro feature, too.
• Dartan wrote on 2014-03-20 17:51
  I would rather to see Incredible Ultra Super Fast Pink n' Yellow flashies to be removed!
• Cyrene wrote on 2014-03-20 19:26

  Quote from Paradise;1208255:

  \
  i add:
  
  -climactic crash (make it 1 hit instead a 1-3 hits skill)

  
  
  Its 2 hits total
  
  I wish the ability for transformations to restore hunger was gone. It makes cooking 100 percent useless.
• Cyrene wrote on 2014-03-20 19:35
  I wish the ability for transformations to restore hunger was gone. It makes cooking 100 percent useless.
• Paradise wrote on 2014-03-20 20:28

  Quote from Crye;1208344:

  Its 2 hits total
  
  I wish the ability for transformations to restore hunger was gone. It makes cooking 100 percent useless.

  
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Climactic_Crash
  
  that and myself playing my puppeteer giant every weekend
• Cyrene wrote on 2014-03-20 20:30

  Quote from Paradise;1208361:

  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Climactic_Crash
  
  that and myself playing my puppeteer giant every weekend

  
  
  
  It doesn't three hit anymore.. they took it out in a patch
• Syliara wrote on 2014-03-20 20:31

  Quote from Crye;1208362:

  It doesn't three hit anymore.. they took it out in a patch

  
  
  You can 3 hit if u time a type of aoe pet correctly.
• Twin wrote on 2014-03-20 21:07
  A lot of people say reforges, but I actually like them. I just wish it wasn't so random and purely based on NX. Maybe Nexon could have made reforging (and repairing..cough) into blacksmithing features ,and the cash shop would affect it some but not enough to be game breaking without it.
• Jake wrote on 2014-03-20 21:13

  Quote from Twin;1208375:

  A lot of people say reforges, but I actually like them. I just wish it wasn't so random and purely based on NX. Maybe Nexon could have made reforging (and repairing..cough) into blacksmithing features ,and the cash shop would affect it some but not enough to be game breaking without it.

  
  
  It doesn't have to be purely based on nx since you have the ability to trade reforges
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-03-20 23:20

  Quote from Crye;1208344:

  Its 2 hits total

  
  
  As Nui said you can pull off three hits with Climactic Crash. I've done it before, though I never had to use an AoE pet.