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Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2014-06-04 05:33
I'm talking about weapons like the Black Star, the Golden Dowra, the Black Dragon Knight's Giant Sword, etc. (There may be others but these are the 3 I know of off hand and the ones I see most often) They are weapons that are powerful, but cannot be enchanted or upgraded.
Whenever I ask someone about these weapons everyone says the same thing. "Those weapons are shit, just upgrade an X instead."
The problem being, I have. Even after fully upgrading a sword for max damage, including 6 step special upgrade, the damage listed for its min and max were less than half that of the BDKGS. So the only way a normal weapon could possibly out-damage one of these 'special' weapons is with enchants.
But what if you can't afford the enchants meaning you'd still be stuck spending millions in upgrades and repair costs and time proffing it to get a weapon that's still only half as powerful as the weapon you could have just bought outright with no work involved? Nope. Even then they say that the weaker upgraded weapon is better than the obviously stronger non-upgradable weapon.
Lets look at an example.
The Black Dragon Knight's Giant Sword. I've seen them for about 3,500,000 on Ruairi. 140-220 damage, 40% balance, 0% injury, 50% Critical, 22 durability, and level 1 piercing. That's with no upgrades, reforges, or enchants. (It can be reforged like any other weapon, so mentioning that is kind of pointless.)
Compare that to.. Lets say, Highlander Claymore. That's a pretty well-used 2h sword. They cost around 100k last I looked. After fully upgrading it for max damage to step 6 special(Lets go with a VERY hopeful estimate and say that it only takes you 15 tries to do this and that you get S6 on the first try), that gives you a total cost of 1,761,000 for blue and 2,361,000 for red. Both versions cost 285 proficiency as well, meaning you have to prof the sword at least 3 times, so add in time and repair costs to that as well, however much value you put on your time I guess.
Blue would have final stats of
Attack 46-149 Critical 32%
Balance 13% Durability 13
Red would have final stats of
Attack 18-101 Critical 94%
Balance 13% Durability 13
Both of these full upgrades cost almost as much as the BDKGS while taking MUCH more effort and still only ending up with half the damage.
Demonic Death Penalty Blade(Believe these are about 500k if I recall)
Final stats upon S6 blue upgrade (Again assuming you somehow get it in 15 tries)
Attack 66-146 Critical 40%
Balance 35% Durability 21
Final Cost: 1,666,000 + repairs and time to get 285 Prof.
This one's a bit closer, it only costs about half as much, but on the other hand it's still down ~80 max and ~80 min damage. Not to mention the 10% less crit and 5% less balance.
Dustin Silver Knight Sword (These aren't much, maybe 200k?)
Final stats upon S6 blue upgrade (Again assuming you somehow get it in 15 tries)
Attack 34-100 Critical 17%
Balance 25% Durability 8
Final Cost: 1,187,000 + repair costs and time to get 215 prof
Yeah. This one is cheaper but isn't even close in power.
Literally the ONLY thing that could bring any sword up to its level would be enchants.
So my question is why? Why is a weapon that is obviously stronger considered worse? Is it because it can't be enchanted? And if so isn't it actually a better weapon for someone that can't afford expensive enchants because they don't have to spend all their time and money for half a weapon?
(Also, I only mentioned the swords but it's true of the other weapons as well. Fully upgraded Taunes is nowhere near the power of a Black Star, etc.)
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Transcendence wrote on 2014-06-04 06:15
R-type Special Upgrade is the difference. R-type provides a higher damage multiplier, which is 100% of the time better (at least in the long run) than static damage increases such as S-type Special Upgrade.
If anything, these gacha weapons are reminders of how inferior S-type Special Upgrades are for melee weapons (yet people still do them anyways).
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Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2014-06-04 06:52
Quote from Transcendence;1223608:
how inferior S-type Special Upgrades are for melee weapons (yet people still do them anyways).
Probably because the wiki says right on the special upgrade page that for 2 handed melee weapons step 6 S adds more critical damage than step 6 R.
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Invisible wrote on 2014-06-04 08:38
I was never good at math, but I'm pretty sure my Taunes are stronger than any Black Star out there.
[SPOILER="Picture"]
[Image: http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z451/ghosteses/mabinogi_2014_06_04_001_zps9fc403a6.jpg]
[/SPOILER]
Unless 156>183.
But hey, no one is saying you have to go out of your way to get the best of the best (although my guns aren't the best, they're just for noncrit one shotting HM mobs). If you want to be lazy/cheap(?) and use Black Stars, go ahead. If you ask me, Black Stars are decent guns, not the best, but they'll still get the job done.
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Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2014-06-04 09:41
Quote from Invisible;1223630:
I was never good at math, but I'm pretty sure my Taunes are stronger than any Black Star out there.
[SPOILER="Picture"][Image: http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z451/ghosteses/mabinogi_2014_06_04_001_zps9fc403a6.jpg]
[/SPOILER]
Unless 156>183.
But hey, no one is saying you have to go out of your way to get the best of the best (although my guns aren't the best, they're just for noncrit one shotting HM mobs). If you want to be lazy/cheap(?) and use Black Stars, go ahead. If you ask me, Black Stars are decent guns, not the best, but they'll still get the job done.
Like I said though, you needed enchants to get them that strong. Without them it's just 109, and 109 definitely IS < 156. So if someone doesn't want to/can't afford to mess with enchants, risking blowing up their weapon if they fail, then the Black Star would be better.
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Rydian wrote on 2014-06-04 10:29
Quote from Transcendence;1223608:
R-type Special Upgrade is the difference. R-type provides a higher damage multiplier, which is 100% of the time better (at least in the long run) than static damage increases such as S-type Special Upgrade.
If anything, these gacha weapons are reminders of how inferior S-type Special Upgrades are for melee weapons (yet people still do them anyways).
The multiplier depends on the ability to crit.
And you might want to look at what the protection stat does to the ability to crit for skills that don't ignore it, because it's not "100% of the time better".
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Qnjo wrote on 2014-06-04 11:15
I may be a noob when it comes to equipment (and not only that, to be honest) but what I've noticed so far is that there are players (quite a lot of them) who claim anything other than Secret Penetrating lance with R6 and r1 to be garbage. With that in mind I always try out and test new weapons myself.
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Transcendence wrote on 2014-06-04 15:09
Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1223612:
Probably because the wiki says right on the special upgrade page that for 2 handed melee weapons step 6 S adds more critical damage than step 6 R.
"At +6 for two-handed weapons the S type upgrade will still give you a higher critical damage than a +6 R type
until...Max Damage > 193.55"
Even when you factor in 30% chance of critical, the threshold is relatively low for R-type (was it 300 max for 2h weapons?) to win out.
Quote from Rydian;1223643:
The multiplier depends on the ability to crit.
And you might want to look at what the protection stat does to the ability to crit for skills that don't ignore it, because it's not "100% of the time better".
In my 6 years of Mabinogi experience, Mabinogi's monsters (or at least the ones that find themselves being killed the most) are well-balanced enough that at any given damage tier, a player can land critical rates at or around the 30% limit. This is assuming the player is optimizing damage output with equipment and weapon enchants (which is not an unreasonable assumption). I apologize for using incorrectly "100% of the time," but it's pretty much 99% of the time.
Plus, unless this was changed with the lance update circa G17 (?), lance piercing levels provide critical to the player by 2 * the protection decrease (e.g. at level 8, +80% critical).
Can anyone confirm or deny this?
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wilson10000 wrote on 2014-06-04 16:04
Quote from Transcendence;1223672:
"At +6 for two-handed weapons the S type upgrade will still give you a higher critical damage than a +6 R type until...Max Damage > 193.55"
Even when you factor in 30% chance of critical, the threshold is relatively low for R-type (was it 300 max for 2h weapons?) to win out.
In my 6 years of Mabinogi experience, Mabinogi's monsters (or at least the ones that find themselves being killed the most) are well-balanced enough that at any given damage tier, a player can land critical rates at or around the 30% limit. This is assuming the player is optimizing damage output with equipment and weapon enchants (which is not an unreasonable assumption). I apologize for using incorrectly "100% of the time," but it's pretty much 99% of the time.
Plus, unless this was changed with the lance update circa G17 (?), lance piercing levels provide critical to the player by 2 * the protection decrease (e.g. at level 8, +80% critical). Can anyone confirm or deny this?
I believe the protection decrease just affects the protection damage decrease, not the critical rate part of it.
So lance users still need high crit to be able to smash high prot monsters.
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SlurpTASTY wrote on 2014-06-04 16:24
Multipliers > additives
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Kaeporo wrote on 2014-06-04 18:30
Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1223589:
[SPOILER=" "]I'm talking about weapons like the Black Star, the Golden Dowra, the Black Dragon Knight's Giant Sword, etc. (There may be others but these are the 3 I know of off hand and the ones I see most often) They are weapons that are powerful, but cannot be enchanted or upgraded.
Whenever I ask someone about these weapons everyone says the same thing. "Those weapons are shit, just upgrade an X instead."
The problem being, I have. Even after fully upgrading a sword for max damage, including 6 step special upgrade, the damage listed for its min and max were less than half that of the BDKGS. So the only way a normal weapon could possibly out-damage one of these 'special' weapons is with enchants.
But what if you can't afford the enchants meaning you'd still be stuck spending millions in upgrades and repair costs and time proffing it to get a weapon that's still only half as powerful as the weapon you could have just bought outright with no work involved? Nope. Even then they say that the weaker upgraded weapon is better than the obviously stronger non-upgradable weapon.
Lets look at an example.
The Black Dragon Knight's Giant Sword. I've seen them for about 3,500,000 on Ruairi. 140-220 damage, 40% balance, 0% injury, 50% Critical, 22 durability, and level 1 piercing. That's with no upgrades, reforges, or enchants. (It can be reforged like any other weapon, so mentioning that is kind of pointless.)
Compare that to.. Lets say, Highlander Claymore. That's a pretty well-used 2h sword. They cost around 100k last I looked. After fully upgrading it for max damage to step 6 special(Lets go with a VERY hopeful estimate and say that it only takes you 15 tries to do this and that you get S6 on the first try), that gives you a total cost of 1,761,000 for blue and 2,361,000 for red. Both versions cost 285 proficiency as well, meaning you have to prof the sword at least 3 times, so add in time and repair costs to that as well, however much value you put on your time I guess.
Blue would have final stats of
Attack 46-149 Critical 32%
Balance 13% Durability 13
Red would have final stats of
Attack 18-101 Critical 94%
Balance 13% Durability 13
Both of these full upgrades cost almost as much as the BDKGS while taking MUCH more effort and still only ending up with half the damage.
Demonic Death Penalty Blade(Believe these are about 500k if I recall)
Final stats upon S6 blue upgrade (Again assuming you somehow get it in 15 tries)
Attack 66-146 Critical 40%
Balance 35% Durability 21
Final Cost: 1,666,000 + repairs and time to get 285 Prof.
This one's a bit closer, it only costs about half as much, but on the other hand it's still down ~80 max and ~80 min damage. Not to mention the 10% less crit and 5% less balance.
Dustin Silver Knight Sword (These aren't much, maybe 200k?)
Final stats upon S6 blue upgrade (Again assuming you somehow get it in 15 tries)
Attack 34-100 Critical 17%
Balance 25% Durability 8
Final Cost: 1,187,000 + repair costs and time to get 215 prof
Yeah. This one is cheaper but isn't even close in power.
Literally the ONLY thing that could bring any sword up to its level would be enchants.
So my question is why? Why is a weapon that is obviously stronger considered worse? Is it because it can't be enchanted? And if so isn't it actually a better weapon for someone that can't afford expensive enchants because they don't have to spend all their time and money for half a weapon?
(Also, I only mentioned the swords but it's true of the other weapons as well. Fully upgraded Taunes is nowhere near the power of a Black Star, etc.)[/SPOILER]
The only statistic which matters end-game is damage. Additionally, damage multipliers are typically far more important than added damage (though this depends on the talent in question as well as the situation). Critical is completely meaningless as you can easily obtain over 150% critical barehanded, which is easily enough to tackle the overwhelming majority of enemies when coupled with a weapon.
The only advantage of these weapons when compared to their upgraded/enchanted counterparts is that they are cheaper and easier to obtain.
The reason why people state "Those weapons are shit, just upgrade an X instead" is because people tend to opt out of steady character progression when possible. Nobody is going to recommend a mid-tier enchant set to a player because it's redundant effort for a lesser reward.
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Osu wrote on 2014-06-04 21:46
I do want to add.. depending on what point in the game you're around, your stats by themselves can be adding more damage to your equation than your weapons do anyway.. So when you consider the 312% damage on crit instead of 250% you're not just adding the weapon but all of your damage together. Whereas with S or those "special weapons" you're only adding flat damage to one part of the equation. o3o
So I'll go very vague here and say.. 600 str, is another 240 damage, and we can add that to the 220 from that one special sword.
240+220 = 460~ 460x2.5 = 1150. (turning this to smash it becomes 6900)
Now let's say your same 240 from str added to.. going mid tier, 140 max or so from a slightly enchanted two-handed sword.
240+140 = 380~ 380x3.12 = 1185, haha. (turning this to smash it becomes 7113)
Not too much of a difference, but I will say that.. the majority of people who label the special ones as crap are likely going to have the best enchants for their weapons as well as all their gear, and more than likely have decent stats to back themselves up. So it really depends on your character in all honesty. Because as you can see I went fairly mediocre with that 140, most people would probably have something like 180 or so on a good two-hander.
If you're really likely to not enchant though, those special weapons are better for you I suppose.
I personally like the effort involved in building up a new weapon xD it's kinda sad when the progression stops after the special upgrades to me. xP
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Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2014-06-04 22:12
Quote from Osu;1223726:
[SPOILER="Text"]I do want to add.. depending on what point in the game you're around, your stats by themselves can be adding more damage to your equation than your weapons do anyway.. So when you consider the 312% damage on crit instead of 250% you're not just adding the weapon but all of your damage together. Whereas with S or those "special weapons" you're only adding flat damage to one part of the equation. o3o
So I'll go very vague here and say.. 600 str, is another 240 damage, and we can add that to the 220 from that one special sword.
240+220 = 460~ 460x2.5 = 1150. (turning this to smash it becomes 6900)
Now let's say your same 240 from str added to.. going mid tier, 140 max or so from a slightly enchanted two-handed sword.
240+140 = 380~ 380x3.12 = 1185, haha. (turning this to smash it becomes 7113)
Not too much of a difference, but I will say that.. the majority of people who label the special ones as crap are likely going to have the best enchants for their weapons as well as all their gear, and more than likely have decent stats to back themselves up. So it really depends on your character in all honesty. Because as you can see I went fairly mediocre with that 140, most people would probably have something like 180 or so on a good two-hander.
[/SPOILER]
If you're really likely to not enchant though, those special weapons are better for you I suppose.
I personally like the effort involved in building up a new weapon xD it's kinda sad when the progression stops after the special upgrades to me. xP
Well, if you're a Mabi billionaire that's fine, but when it costs all your money just to get the weapon special upgraded, you don't really want to risk blowing it up with an enchant and having to start over from nothing. Lol.
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Kaeporo wrote on 2014-06-04 23:00
Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1223729:
Well, if you're a Mabi billionaire that's fine, but when it costs all your money just to get the weapon special upgraded, you don't really want to risk blowing it up with an enchant and having to start over from nothing. Lol.
That's not the point which we've been arguing.
1. Players state that special weapons suck.
2. You argue that normal weapons are inferior to special weapons barring enchants.
"So the only way a normal weapon could possibly out-damage one of these 'special' weapons is with enchants."
3. Someone introduces the superiority of special upgrades.
4. You
move the goal posts.
Provided that your intent is to better understand the current state of the meta-game, know that special weapons "do not suck". They are, however, ultimately outclassed by upgraded/enchanted weapons when wielded by developed characters due to numerous multiplicative factors. Additive damage contributions merely reduce the dependence on the strong character foundation required for effectiveness.
The indoctrinated might argue the relative worth of additional damage relative to the ease in which these special weapons are obtained (a situation frequently encountered with spirit weapons) but the effectiveness of these weapons relative to one another is indisputable among the educated.
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Blassreiter wrote on 2014-06-04 23:20
Black Stars and Dowra's Golden Guns have lesser value in comparison to the BDK weapons. The aforementioned guns can easily be surpassed in damage by enchanting the regular versions (
given that the gun was crafted with a very good max damage roll). Otherwise as others have said
if you don't want to gamble with Enchants/Step 6 or even Rank 1 Reforging an item then you can go for the Black Stars/Dowra's Golden Guns but they won't be end game because they're not the highest potential. A max roll crafted gun with Officer's Crocodile plus Step 6 R Upgrade will outclass the BS/DGG.
But of course getting a max roll craft and Artisan Officer's Crocodile Step 6 Rank 1 Reforged Dowra SE/Taunes MK3 with fairly high durability is very expensive and if you don't have the effort to make it then settle for something easier like the BS/DGG. The same can be said with BDK weapons. The best sword is arguably the Bhafel Slayer but what are the odds of getting a max roll craft Conqueror Crocodile Step 6 Rank 1 on it?
On another note, someone explicate this:
[Image: http://puu.sh/9foXJ/21671388c6.png]
Dfang is essentially 164 max with Artisan/Enchants in place.
I know Elementals is multiplicative but when you reverse the max damage of the weapons to each side (that is if the 164 DFang gets the elemental) it only reaches around 15k as opposed to 17k from the 220 max of the BDK Sword