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Kaon wrote on 2014-11-04 09:42
That can be said about a lot of things, doesn't mean it's an educated point of view, unfortunately lol.
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Campylobacter jejuni wrote on 2014-11-04 09:51
Good point.
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Zekkii wrote on 2014-11-04 10:58
These sort of arguments always get ugly when emotion is confused with factual analysis or vice versa. I don't imagine any of us here are out on the streets cat-calling women, or support that. What really differs is how much of a problem we see it as, and what should be done about it. At least I hope that where we're at.
In terms of how much an issue it is, people are going to get mad. If you put it next to starvation, poverty, or animal cruelty, then it's bound to seem insignificant to most. So does that mean we shouldn't put effort into stopping it? That's a difficult question to answer for many people, especially for something so intangible and hard to combat. This is getting pretty depressing. Personally I don't know, but as I've said I'd rather spend on a more universally accepted charity. Only in a perfect world could we fix everything, but that doesn't mean we have to accept it either.
I've noticed a lot of people speaking on behalf of women or men, which is ridiculous. Some women like getting catcalled, some find it irritating, and some find it scary, all of course depending on the call and the person. Sexuality is far more complex than a bunch of stupid horny guys chasing after innocent intellectual women. Privacy is also a very controversial and complicated topic. When you're dealing with the mind it's important to consider everyone's perspective, which is also impossible. That even includes criminals who commit crimes equal to or far greater than harassment.
The main idea I'm trying to get across here, is that the issue isn't one so binary. As much as I wish these men would have more respect, to what end do they have the right to compliment someone? Is a man allowed to call another man sexy but not a woman? Is he allowed to call a woman beautiful but not sexy? As much as I have a solid set of my own morals, this is far more complex as an issue. Not that acknowledging it helps anything, it's just humbling.
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Odin wrote on 2014-11-04 11:12
Finally got to sit down and watch this.
There seemed to be a lot of what people around here consider normal politeness- people saying hi how you doin and whatnot. I sometimes get my coworkers picking on me a bit for ignoring that, since there's mornings where my mind is on another planet and I just plain don't notice it.
But there was indeed a lot of people catcalling her too, and that would creep me out as well to be followed like that. Now there is a solution to that as well though- make two left turns. If they're still following you after two left turns, call the police. But you can reliably separate someone following you from someone who happens to be going the same direction by going the opposite direction for a block or so before returning to the direction you were going.
Unfortunately the world we live in really is full of assholes who see no harm in harassing her, and in their neighborhood such things are as routine as saying hi to your coworkers when you get to the office. Its not even an issue of personal restraint or rape culture or any of that- it is an underlying cultural issue where in some areas of our society it has become socially acceptable to act like that
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Murasaki wrote on 2014-11-04 14:15
Quote from Odin;1253127:
- it is an underlying cultural issue where in some areas of our society it has become socially acceptable to act like that
Which can make it very frustrating to explain why it isn't acceptable to act like that, sadly. This is where a lot of my frustration comes from. Some guys just don't grasp which compliments are okay and which aren't, and some disguise their intentions by starting off with something pretty normal then using it as a way to try to get into more inappropriate topics of conversation. This happens to me far less frequently than outright catcalls, but it does happen. It's unfortunate because this makes me wary of actual genuine compliments. The one thing I'll give people who immediately catcall: they save me so much fucking time.
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SlurpTASTY wrote on 2014-11-04 15:56
Quote from Kaon;1253096:
Yeah, I know, such a useful site feature.
I think that emoticon was more towards the fact that you're (born) a male saying your sex is a female for whatever reason (maybe to try to add validity to your point while shutting down mine, orrr maybe that's actually what you identify yourself as, or some other shit idk about, none of my business really) but my point still stands:
Quote from SlurpTASTY;1253072:
Are you not a male who also disagrees with the behavior of men harassing women?
Are you not someone who was brought up (as a male) in the same culture you are bashing for teaching men that women are property? You're still advocating womans rights are you not? What makes you any different than me or any other guy out there who doesn't objectify women? The way you define your sexuality/gender/whatever does not determine whether or not you are a good person and trying to generalize all men into thinking that women are our property (especially when you yourself are a male brought up in the exact same culture as everyone other 1st world male was) is pretty insulting. No reason to put yourself above others when you're the exact same as everyone else.
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Kyishi wrote on 2014-11-04 16:27
Quote from Kaon;1253120:
Apparently there's some bias here against tumblr.. based on some of the super extreme 'social justice' things people have seen.
Just like anything else, extremes aren't representative of a group...
But anyway comparisons there are partly my fault; my debate lost quality via frustration.
[video=youtubeold;iVldGoW3xmc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVldGoW3xmc[/video]
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Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2014-11-04 17:38
I was reading an article and after this video came out the woman who wrote the article apparently did a survey of women in NYC about whether they had been catcalled in their time living there and like, 3/4 of them didn't even know catcalling was a real thing and had never been or seen anyone being catcalled outside of TV/movies. So, that makes me see it as a pretty damn small issue when 3/4 of people interviewed have never seen a single instance of catcalling in their entire time in the city. We already know that they edited all the white people out of the video (which the producer is calling an "editing error" despite the fact that this group's previous videos have done similar things) and we all know she was so desperate to make it look like she got catcalled that she included people saying things like "Hello" and "Good morning". So I think at this point the whole video's validity comes into question. Did she also purposely pick a bad neighborhood to get the most action? Did she purposely wear that shirt 3 sizes too small to get it to stick to her body like that so everyone could see everything? You don't see any other woman in the entire video wearing a shirt that tight, only her. Then there's the part where it clearly states her pants are the kind with the logo on the ass. The only point of a logo on the ass is to make people look at it. The first guy walking beside her was clearly already walking in that direction before she showed up, and 5 minutes of walking isn't that long, so it's entirely possible he was just continuing to go to his destination and they happened to have the same walking speed, he wasn't even looking at her half the time.
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Campylobacter jejuni wrote on 2014-11-04 17:59
Well it's still a thing though, regardless of the sincerity of this particular example video. Nothing to do with men being taught to disrespect women in our society, but it's there.
See -> Miyazaki
Or jsut google it.
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Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2014-11-04 18:33
Quote from Campylobacter jejuni;1253142:
See -> Miyazaki
[Image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Hayao_Miyazaki.jpg]
What about him?
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Odin wrote on 2014-11-04 19:02
Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1253141:
I was reading an article and after this video came out the woman who wrote the article apparently did a survey of women in NYC about whether they had been catcalled in their time living there and like, 3/4 of them didn't even know catcalling was a real thing and had never been or seen anyone being catcalled outside of TV/movies.
So, that makes me see it as a pretty damn small issue when 3/4 of people interviewed have never seen a single instance of catcalling in their entire time in the city.
This is as much a part of the underlying social problem as anything else. People literally are raised expecting that kind of thing and unaware that it is actually inappropriate.
In a similar scenario that doesn't even involve catcalling, I was raised under the impression that you do not talk to anyone on the street unless there is a reason to. Usually I won't talk at all until I get where I am going and am doing something that involves other people. Just having someone say hi to me will weird me out enough that I'll move faster to avoid the unwanted attention. To other people that behavior in itself is bizarre, and its rude of me to not answer them when they are just trying to be friendly. It took a couple of years for my coworkers to get me used to that, and even now I still don't always answer if I have something else on my mind.
Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1253141:
We already know that they edited all the white people out of the video (which the producer is calling an "editing error" despite the fact that this group's previous videos have done similar things) and we all know she was so desperate to make it look like she got catcalled that she included people saying things like "Hello" and "Good morning". So I think at this point the whole video's validity comes into question. Did she also purposely pick a bad neighborhood to get the most action? Did she purposely wear that shirt 3 sizes too small to get it to stick to her body like that so everyone could see everything? You don't see any other woman in the entire video wearing a shirt that tight, only her. Then there's the part where it clearly states her pants are the kind with the logo on the ass. The only point of a logo on the ass is to make people look at it. The first guy walking beside her was clearly already walking in that direction before she showed up, and 5 minutes of walking isn't that long, so it's entirely possible he was just continuing to go to his destination and they happened to have the same walking speed, he wasn't even looking at her half the time.
There is this as well- the video was clearly designed to make an example out of the subject it presents and in the process displays a somewhat inaccurate representation of how often it happens. Though I personally am all in favor of people wearing whatever they want, as an adult male I will notice if you are showing a body shape that I like. Out of respect for other people I will also quietly look away without a word, but other people do not respond the same way I do.
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Kaon wrote on 2014-11-04 21:26
Quote from SlurpTASTY;1253136:
I think that emoticon was more towards the fact that you're (born) a male saying your sex is a female for whatever reason (maybe to try to add validity to your point while shutting down mine, orrr maybe that's actually what you identify yourself as, or some other shit idk about, none of my business really) but my point still stands:
Are you not someone who was brought up (as a male) in the same culture you are bashing for teaching men that women are property? You're still advocating womans rights are you not? What makes you any different than me or any other guy out there who doesn't objectify women? The way you define your sexuality/gender/whatever does not determine whether or not you are a good person and trying to generalize all men into thinking that women are our property (especially when you yourself are a male brought up in the exact same culture as everyone other 1st world male was) is pretty insulting. No reason to put yourself above others when you're the exact same as everyone else.
Either you misunderstood me or I communicated it incorrectly, but either way, the message didn't get across. To anyone, for that matter.
So I won't force it and I'll stop here before I just start typing stupid shit out of frustration.
If you want to know my context, I don't mind discussing it one on one, but please don't make assumptions about an issue you don't know the importance of for a person.
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Hanna wrote on 2014-11-04 21:55
Quote from Kaeporo;1253113:
[video=youtube;gEAC7nl5n2g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEAC7nl5n2g[/video]
This summarizes about 80% of that video.
I'm fucking dying
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Yoorah wrote on 2014-11-06 02:06
Quote from Murasaki;1253106:
I focus on it because it is a legitimately irritating thing I have to deal with regularly.
When I said you shouldn't focus on it, I meant within the greater context of expectations and issues in society (since that's what the comment was about). That is, women may "know better" when it comes to catcalling, but men have to face other issues related to expectations, sexism, etc that are just as bad.
Many people will focus on their own narrow problems (while ignoring similar or related problems the other side might have) and portray themselves as the ultimate victim in a debate, make accusations, etc.. which doesn't produce anything constructive. That's all I have an issue with in what you said; I can understand the frustration when it comes to catcalling. But again, they're just people who weren't raised well... so yea.
That guy on the news? You've got to remember that it's only there for entertainment and controversy. It would be pretty boring if he said something politically correct. He's also correct to some extent... you'd be surprised how much creepyness a girl will be OK with if the guy is hot. Another weird thing is that many [S]hoes[/S] girls will post naked photos of themselves on the net for the purposes of getting lewd comments from men. It helps their self-esteem, or something. I'm not even making it up.. there are online communities for this. o_ o;
As for nice things to say to a lady: A woman taught me that complimenting a lady on her choice of shoes is effective. Based on my limited experience within this field, it appears to hold true. \o/
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Murasaki wrote on 2014-11-08 18:53
Thing is, I don't only focus on this issue. I'm simply stating that I think it's a legitimate one. Men do have their own problems, and I've acknowledged that. Moreover, it's something I've always thought about. I know a lot of guys who are unwilling to talk about some of their problems because they don't think it's "manly", for starters. Then there are guys who get made fun of for being polite, which on top of being mean to the guy, helps perpetuate some other problems. And this isn't even getting into the worst of it. But yes, I'm aware that there are more problems than just the ones I'm facing. I'm focusing on this particular problem because that's what the topic is about, and because I do still think I know more about being catcalled than at the very least, my male friends and relatives. I've been getting catcalls since I was in high school.