10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman

• Osayidan wrote on 2014-11-04 01:39

  Quote from Campylobacter jejuni;1253091:

  While the term doesn't make perfect sense, Kaon has explained it's because of the shifting of the focus onto the victim. While it's true that these things need to be mentioned, it can and does often turn into the sole point of the debatte - this was also the case in the other thread. This then is not helpful by neglecting other factors which do need consideration, and probably even more so than the choice of clothing.

  
  
  The only factor is that there are some fucked up people. And unfortunately for our own safety, we need to understand what causes those fucked up people to act, and avoid it. We don't (yet?) live in a world where crime is prevented before it happens (see anime psychopass or the movie minority report)
• Campylobacter jejuni wrote on 2014-11-04 01:45
  It's also important to find out why the people got fucked up, and instead of just finding out which venues lead to a greater risk of sexual assault and then try to avoid them, we should also find out which venues lead to a lower risk of sexual assault and take them. And this is completely ignoring the individually different responses to different stimuli and the fact that things that may have a positive effect on sexual assault prevalence may have unwanted side effects in other regions that nullify the gains.
  
  It's an interpersonal issue, so it's complicated. Anything happening between two brains and two bodies in the context of a cluster of millions upon millions of brains and bodies interacting with and affecting each other is complicated as fuck and not easily boiled down to proverbial or literal binary code - otherwise it would in return be easy to emulate with binary code. Given the sorry state of even the most advanced AI of these days compared to the overall ability of even the brain of a measly rodent, this is evidently not the case.
• Yoorah wrote on 2014-11-04 02:58

  Quote from Kaon;1252998:

  Women know about this just as well.. don't you think your own statement applies here, than men wouldn't know better than women? Discrimination does indeed have many forms, and the ways it affects women are indeed different than men. And they're for sure not lesser, especially those based on sex or gender.

  
  
  Agreed, but I didn't say that men knew better. Murasaki implied that women knew better because they suffer more from it--a common and unfortunately poor argument in these types of discussions. My response was directed at that.
  
  Not even gonna respond to the Tumblr-grade stuff... I mean wtf, this isn't even about rape. :| o well
  
  

  Quote from Kaon;1253064:

  As an aside, gender icon is that way <--

  
  :shock2:
• Kaon wrote on 2014-11-04 03:14

  Quote from Yoorah;1253095:

  :shock2:

  
  
  Yeah, I know, such a useful site feature.
• Murasaki wrote on 2014-11-04 04:22

  Quote from Yoorah;1253095:

  Agreed, but I didn't say that men knew better. Murasaki implied that women knew better because they suffer more from it--a common and unfortunately poor argument in these types of discussions. My response was directed at that.
  
  Not even gonna respond to the Tumblr-grade stuff... I mean wtf, this isn't even about rape. :| o well

  
  
  I don't doubt that women know better, at least about what women experience. I also don't see men getting cat called like, ever. Years of getting cat called and I've never witnessed this happening to a man, even men that people would generally consider attractive. Maybe famous men. They probably have to deal with a lot of shit, but the thins famous men and women have to deal with is an entirely different monster that I don't think anyone wants to get into right now.
  
  Admittedly, a lot of things are based on personal experience and just the way that things generally work around me, like things I see with other women. I do not doubt for one second that men have problems. In fact, double-standards placed on men are a thing that bothers me too. However, I think I have a right to be irritated about this issue, because I feel like it's important enough to be irritated by.
  
  My mother was forbidden from going to school beyond elementary while her brother got to keep going, and this was based on the fact that she was a woman. She only just recently told me that her dream had been to make wedding dresses. While some would say that's pretty feminine anyway, the point is, that the choice to better herself, to seek her own life and goals, were denied to her because she was born a woman. She came to the United States so that I wouldn't be put under those same expectations, so people repeatedly condescending to me like I'm just some piece of meat is just a kick in the teeth.
  
  As I've said before, I don't generally have a problem with men. The moment they cat call though, I am 200% done with them. Most guys will either
  1. Maintain a respectful distance
  2. Start a conversation that isn't about how I look
  
  And that's fine. It's great. Some guy started talking to me because I like Smash Bros and Pokemon, and that was a nice conversation. But I think any guy here can understand (or at least I hope they can understand) why I don't want to have a conversation with a guy who yells "nice tits" at me.
  
  I'm a very cautions person, but I try to keep an open mind, largely because I know that my point of view (or anyone's) can be warped by personal experiences, or the media (whether they know it or not), or things that people around them lead them to believe. Ideally, everyone would treat everyone else and their choices and problems with respect and dignity, but the sad truth is that it's not the case, and for me, the people who have consistently disrespected me have been men.
  
  In any case...However harsh or one-sided I may come off, I'm not really that way, and in fact, I'd hate myself if I was like that. It's just that some very particular experiences just get to me. If a guy wants to talk to me, I want it to be about something other than my body. Maybe it can be about something I own, or something we have in common. Hobbies, likes, dislikes, stuff like that. If it's going to be about a physical attribute, let it be about something other than what's below my neck. While there have been many, many, many random fleeting assholes in my life, there are also guys that tell me I have a nice smile, and then they go on their merry way. There have been men who needed my help, and then thanked me when I provided it. Normal things like that. Those conversations are nice.
  
  I'm just a little sad because clearly, despite there being many more men that are capable of thought and respect, there are also these assholes out there that make me wary of any man that approaches me, even if I don't want to be. I've just had so many bad experiences that I can't help but tense up. I'm just glad it doesn't affect my behavior externally so much. I think someone would have to cross a pretty horrible line to get me to that point, and by then, cat calls would be something I miss.
  
  A little more empathy would be nice, for women and for men. Undermining what people feel are genuine problems is not the right way to go though.
  
  

  [Image: https://38.media.tumblr.com/c94c7c7490b459bf6ac385672e84ec9e/tumblr_nehgdgLjyZ1qb6v6ro2_400.gif]

  
  

  [Image: https://38.media.tumblr.com/29e5180cb3233aeec583658152fb4b22/tumblr_nehgdgLjyZ1qb6v6ro3_400.gif]

  
  

  [Image: https://38.media.tumblr.com/dad157f951ffc2b2d994dbe5d00fe2da/tumblr_nehgdgLjyZ1qb6v6ro4_400.gif]

  
  

  [Image: https://38.media.tumblr.com/9b640c0ac9adfead85e98549f12d6f8b/tumblr_nehgdgLjyZ1qb6v6ro5_400.gif]

  
  
  I mean, I don't think a guy would want a girl to assume that they know more about how guys think, right? I know that there are guys that are embarrassed by what some of their fellow men do, and not based on assumption, but because they've told me so, and it's the same for girls too. Some of the things women do make me want to shove my fists into my eye sockets. It's so horribly embarrassing.
  
  Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. I'm actually quite tired. Apologies to anyone thinking I was making assumptions. I'm only speaking on wariness and opinions based on personal experiences. I know that not every guy is an asshat, just like not every girl is some kind of raving lunatic (even though I've seen plenty of those stories too).
• Hanna wrote on 2014-11-04 04:38

  Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1252736:

  I never understood the whole paranoid of men thing. I mean there are creepy women out there too, but guy's aren't going around being scared whenever a woman compliments them. You could get murdered the second you step out of your house but people go outside. Anything you eat or drink that you didn't make yourself could have been spit in, but people still eat out. Worrying about everything that 'might' happen is bad for your health.
  
  If the video isn't insinuating rape and is just saying men shouldn't hit on women, then I don't even. With as many women I know that constantly bitch about how they're fat or ugly or no one loves them, I can't imagine them then turning around and getting pissed at someone for calling them sexy. Hell, I wish I was sexy enough to get catcall'd.

  
  
  Um 100 times in 10 hours...
  Hitting on people is one thing but "HEY QURL DAT ASS DOE" is harassment and that one guy was fucking following her
  
  I for one cannot fucking stand feminism but this is definitely an issue that is not exaggerated and how did this shift from harassment to rape. This thread is too SJW-ey for me ew
• Murasaki wrote on 2014-11-04 05:12

  Quote from Hanna;1253101:

  Um 100 times in 10 hours...
  Hitting on people is one thing but "HEY QURL DAT ASS DOE" is harassment and that one guy was fucking following her
  
  I for one cannot fucking stand feminism but this is definitely an issue that is not exaggerated and how did this shift from harassment to rape. This thread is too SJW-ey for me ew

  
  
  I think it's because rape also functions under the idea that a woman's body and what she does with it shouldn't be/is not for her to decide. Rape is the most extreme manifestation of this I can think of, yeah, but they function under similar ideas. Fortunately, most guys wouldn't take it that far, ever, but it's a pretty legitimate concern. Unfortunately, some men's solution to an ignored catcall is threatening to rape the woman, and sometimes these men are in groups. Women feeling the looming threat of rape dangling over their heads when things like this happen is definitely not unreasonable.
  
  EDIT because I'm not entirely sure why it quoted Yoorah again. ;aldskfj
• Yoorah wrote on 2014-11-04 05:20

  Quote from Murasaki;1253100:

  I don't doubt that women know better, at least about what women experience. I also don't see men getting cat called like, ever.

  
  That's the thing, though--you shouldn't focus on the cat-calling. Again, it was a response specifically to this:
  

  It's upsetting that legitimate problems get overshadowed by shitty behavior. Men have problems too, and it's sad that their fellow men put them down for trying to express that. It's even more upsetting when women do this, because women should know what it feels like to have expectations pushed on them based on their sex or their gender.

  
  
  Will read the rest later!
• Murasaki wrote on 2014-11-04 05:38
  I focus on it because it is a legitimately irritating thing I have to deal with regularly. If I had the time to explain to every man why it bothers me, and see if they're receptive and empathetic towards what I'm feeling, that would be one thing. These are basically fleeting strangers that I mostly never see again though, and if they're catcalling me, I don't know how willing they'd be to listen to how I feel about things anyway. Maybe it's silly to some people that what these strangers say bothers me, but when something happens this often, and it sometimes makes me feel threatened, I can't help but focus on it. I'd love to have the time to chat with them about the cause of the behavior rather than the behavior itself, but the truth is, I just can't. There's no real opportunity, and that just adds to the general helpless feeling I sometimes get when I find myself in a situation where I'm being objectified.
  
  As for the bolded part...
  
  Do you ever have that friend that complains about not being treated right, and then they proceed to treat other people like shit? Because some women complain to me about how bad they have it, and then, for some reason, think it's okay to treat someone who's different than them the same way. Like women who call themselves feminists but they're really just sexist against men. Drives me up a fucking wall. I don't know. Maybe they think of it as revenge for what was done to them, but that just doesn't work for anyone. In the same way that catcalling men can make people generalize all men, hypocritical women can make people generalize all feminists, and that's just terrible.
• Aqualia wrote on 2014-11-04 06:04
  After watching video, i am starting to feel like i should distance myself from every girl out there while walking back to my home. There had been so much instances where I walked down the same street, close to a random girl who happened to be on the same route and the way they speed up and started walking really fast is really unnerving me. I just want to go back to my home, play a quick round of daily SM, or watch an episode of anime. Yes, I know that they are just being cautious and stuffs, but as a guy who had never catcall anyone, and respect them properly, it just disheartened me to see guys and myself being treated as potential harassers just because i am walking beside them naturally or unintentionally while reading jokes on cracked.com on my phone.
• Murasaki wrote on 2014-11-04 06:17
  Well, I can't speak for every woman, but if I see someone on their phone I tend to go around them because people on their phone aren't always the greatest at paying attention.
  
  I know someone who walked into a wall because they were reading something I sent. More than once. I mean, it's funny because this person was in a safe environment but...yeah. lol.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2014-11-04 07:00
  [video=youtube;gEAC7nl5n2g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEAC7nl5n2g[/video]
  
  This summarizes about 80% of that video.
• Campylobacter jejuni wrote on 2014-11-04 08:11
  I wouldn't call it tumblr-grade, but yeah I guess it went kinda off-topic.
• Kaon wrote on 2014-11-04 08:57
  Apparently there's some bias here against tumblr.. based on some of the super extreme 'social justice' things people have seen.
  Just like anything else, extremes aren't representative of a group...
  
  But anyway comparisons there are partly my fault; my debate lost quality via frustration.
• Campylobacter jejuni wrote on 2014-11-04 08:59
  Well it's the only thing some people see when it's about that sort of stuff on tumblr.