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Kaeporo wrote on 2015-06-10 02:38
Quote from Aubog007;1277806:
Mabi is pay to win easily. Reforges and prots
"You can buy them from other players"
So? They paid for it, still pay2win
Then there's enchanting to remove shitty rng from destroying your crap.
Without reforges and enchant prots, there'd be a lot less endgame gear, if any.
It's funny, endgame only exists because of $$$
For instance, i could come back, throw 1k dollars and BAM, p2W, and at a faster rate than non pay2win players.
What are these guys paying to win?
Better gear? It's not like that means anything unless your definition of "winning" is specifically dictated by your ability to OHKO girgashiy or something.
At best it's "pay for convenience" or "pay to be arbitrarily stronger than other players" compared to actual P2W systems like Maplestory where if money's not involved, you aren't going anywhere.
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Zekkii wrote on 2015-06-10 03:07
People will always argue that it's not P2W because you can't win the game. It's true, sure, but nobody really cares about that. People get irritated that by spending real life money, you can make yourself a multiple in power than what you were before. It removes all competition from the game, all the challenge. It's so stupidly unfulfilling and lame.
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Aubog007 wrote on 2015-06-10 03:08
Quote from Kaeporo;1277807:
What are these guys paying to win?
Better gear? It's not like that means anything unless your definition of "winning" is specifically dictated by your ability to OHKO girgashiy or something.
At best it's "pay for convenience" or "pay to be arbitrarily stronger than other players" compared to actual P2W systems like Maplestory where if money's not involved, you aren't going anywhere.
Hmmm, pay to kill shit slightly faster therefore larger epeen?
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koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-06-10 10:53
Quote from Zekkii;1277810:
People will always argue that it's not P2W because you can't win the game. It's true, sure, but nobody really cares about that. People get irritated that by spending real life money, you can make yourself a multiple in power than what you were before. It removes all competition from the game, all the challenge. It's so stupidly unfulfilling and lame.
That was true 4 years ago with paid rebirth.
Now all the reforges in the world will only make you 30-50% stronger than without.
All of the game's balance issues stem from stat inflation where 800 strength is considered average now and the existence of busted skills, all obtainable for free.
I mean even with new busted melee a ttl 400 wont be relevant in say, Abyss, but you know who will be? A ttl 400 with Rank 1 Act 7 and act 6.
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Chiyuri wrote on 2015-06-10 11:06
For those who want to argue that it is less P2W because you can buy those items from player.
Just think of it as the reverse. The Nexon user payed to gain ingame money easily by selling those oh so desired items while non-payers have to work extremely hard to even start buying those special items.
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k1nsoo wrote on 2015-06-10 11:25
Mabi is pay2win. Well... all Nexon games are.
Reforges, enchant prot, repair prot, premium combo cards--all of these are essential for those who want extra damage output. But unlike other "Nexon" games, they are not necessity to enjoy playing Mabinogi. Only things I'm concerned are broken elemental reforges (damage increase % was supposed to be a glitch) and how Nexon is willing to sell skill training seals for $$$.
But hey I'm still happy that Mabinogi doesn't sell AP unlike Vindictus
Quote from Odinwolfe;1277805:
No player on Maple thinks that it is viable to play without Cubes.
Most Nexon games are pretty much like this. Difference here is that a lot of people don't find running hardmode/elite missions impossible without using reforged gears.
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Yai wrote on 2015-06-10 13:18
Reforges really do get on my nerves. For some skillsets it is the only way they can match others (like archery for eg) and this is not ok.
I'd be less annoyed at the idea of reforges if items didn't have a finite lifespan. Just think of the players who spend tons on reforging a weapon to be r1 with the perfect lines they want, but over time it loses dura and becomes worthless essentially killing the money they put into the item.
If it was more permanent then it wouldn't be so bad. I don't really feel the P2W impact in Mabi too much, since you can buy the items from other players. It is still technically P2W since the original player bought them with NX but still.
It doesn't feel like if you don't pay, you cant enjoy all the content. At least not yet.
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Blissfulkill wrote on 2015-06-14 02:12
Quote from Slayerj;1277763:
In my eyes, pay to win is something that you can only get via paying that gives you a direct advantage that a normal non paying player could NEVER get. So the rebirths EARLY game when you HAD to pay were an example of that, but the second free rebirths came out, it stopped being a P2W feature. Same with the games story and trans, as one HAD to pay to do them. Currently it's only reforges as even bags no longer require service and there are a few ingame we can earn with some hard work.
While reforges are tradable, and so are those enchant protection potions, in my eyes they are still pay2w because there's no way to get anything even remotely like them without forking over the large amount of cash. Not to mention you're gambling a fair bit of cash on a RNG in both cases, one that's going to completely fuck you several times, and the other that's just going to be a massive pain in the ass 50% of the time.
Hell even artisan removal kits are P2W as it's the ONLY way to reroll that, and getting an item 100% upgraded to that point is a pain in the ass otherwise, AND it's still RNG as fuck, so you're most likely going to use several to get what you want.
All of these features, if in the normal game itself but semi rare, would INSTANTLY stop being p2w because you'd have access to them with a bit of hard work. It'd just be convince to be able to just buy them. (No, the general shop reforge tool doesn't count, because it doesn't even remotely come close to the pay version, and can't even get you some of the rolls.)
What a myopic defintion of pay2win. What if the process expiates the process by hundreds of hours? Would that not be pay2win? The advantage is fairly significant. Would it still not irk you that someone surpassed hundreds of hours of grind by simply throwing money? I know I would be pissed.
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Zekkii wrote on 2015-06-14 07:11
Quote from koishi-sempai;1277827:
That was true 4 years ago with paid rebirth.
Now all the reforges in the world will only make you 30-50% stronger than without.
All of the game's balance issues stem from stat inflation where 800 strength is considered average now and the existence of busted skills, all obtainable for free.
I mean even with new busted melee a ttl 400 wont be relevant in say, Abyss, but you know who will be? A ttl 400 with Rank 1 Act 7 and act 6.
Depends on the talent/skill, for example Magnum is 2.17x more powerful with ele 6 + magnum 20 against elemental neutral mobs without ele immunity but it's hard to increase gunner skills by more than 1.3x.
In my eyes, the game is most enjoyable without reforges, and with the weakest class to boot. If you're a casual F2P player then Mabi is in its most refined form now, but arguably the most disappointing for high level players. It's better this way, but there's no place for me.
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Slayerj wrote on 2015-06-15 04:19
Quote from Blissfulkill;1278355:
What a myopic defintion of pay2win. What if the process expiates the process by hundreds of hours? Would that not be pay2win? The advantage is fairly significant. Would it still not irk you that someone surpassed hundreds of hours of grind by simply throwing money? I know I would be pissed.
I would assume it wouldn't be THAT ungodly long, but long enough. If it was that long, that would just make people even more pissed off and hate it even more, driving on the P2W of it all more than getting rid of it.
10 hours of constant work for 25 (less than $1 worth of the shops cash) while items costs thousands would be completely retarded.
Meanwhile, 2 hours of work for 40 of the shops cash while items cost thousands would still be bad but not as bad, allowing for fair progress as you simply play the game, while still letting people who pay not feel like they're cheated, and those that don't pay feel like they're never getting anywhere.
You don't want your shop, the way that your game is kept afloat, to be completely undermined by a free way to get the currency.
Also, what is being sold HEAVILY dictates if it is P2W or not. Cosmetic items? Not P2W. Extra inv? As long as you don't cut everyone down to a tiny ass inv, not p2w. An epic loot item that surpasses 90% of the games items? P2W as hell. Extra leveling speed? Not p2w AS LONG as leveling isn't a month long grind for one fucking level. If it's a nice general exp curve that everyone can do without days of constant dedication, then an extra boost for your buck is fine. If it's a "You must have this or you will take over a week of 16 hour grinding to so much as reach the next level," You're doing something wrong, and that IS p2w as fuck.
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Esileruf wrote on 2015-06-15 07:29
I have spent a grand total of two and a half years for a 9.3k level character.
Spent 0$ of my own money on the game
Obtain 20k nx every two weeks via a good friend selling for an excellent price.
Am at the doorsteps of enchant protection hell, and have been delaying reforge hell for quite some time.
I have gotten 32 dokidoki pets for inv space outside of the few pets I've bought with the traded NX.
Mabi is P2W. The inventory space hell is the first hurdle.
Then it was the enchant+repair protections.
Then it was the Reforges.
Then it was the Training Badges.
And then the 7th anniv packs.
It is inevitable to avoid any of these. If dokidoki had not happened, I would be a very sad boy indeed with -32 pets worth of 8x7 invs to not hold all my stupid shit. I didn't even bother with the second one, Otherwise I'd have had more. The most broken of all of these has to be the badges. Folks are wishing there were more but I'm damn wishing that there weren't. Imagine if there was badges for the harder life skills. I mean enchant on 12x takes a day. Blacksmithing with all my preparation and spending about 8m extra on the mats I was missing, synthesizing ten thousand plus ingots and using an exp 8 hammer took me a week. The reforges for that would have taken a good 80$ worth to get if I had not been able to borrow a hammer, and they saved 3 weeks. P2W for training was the big thing that hurt the game. The damage became negligible, when you deal enough damage that anything dies before you need reforges, they're redundant.
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Blissfulkill wrote on 2015-06-15 13:09
Quote from Slayerj;1278464:
I would assume it wouldn't be THAT ungodly long, but long enough. If it was that long, that would just make people even more pissed off and hate it even more, driving on the P2W of it all more than getting rid of it.
10 hours of constant work for 25 (less than $1 worth of the shops cash) while items costs thousands would be completely retarded.
Meanwhile, 2 hours of work for 40 of the shops cash while items cost thousands would still be bad but not as bad, allowing for fair progress as you simply play the game, while still letting people who pay not feel like they're cheated, and those that don't pay feel like they're never getting anywhere.
You don't want your shop, the way that your game is kept afloat, to be completely undermined by a free way to get the currency.
Also, what is being sold HEAVILY dictates if it is P2W or not. Cosmetic items? Not P2W. Extra inv? As long as you don't cut everyone down to a tiny ass inv, not p2w. An epic loot item that surpasses 90% of the games items? P2W as hell. Extra leveling speed? Not p2w AS LONG as leveling isn't a month long grind for one fucking level. If it's a nice general exp curve that everyone can do without days of constant dedication, then an extra boost for your buck is fine. If it's a "You must have this or you will take over a week of 16 hour grinding to so much as reach the next level," You're doing something wrong, and that IS p2w as fuck.
Grind2win and pay2win don't seem that much different if you're grinding to be on par with pay2win players is what I'm saying.
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koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-06-15 14:22
Imo, Mabi went from true pay2win (as in, paid RBs were effectively REQUIRED for doing endgame content - it was virtually impossible to get the AP levels required for high end content unless you used paid RB) to "pay2winmore" (as in, you'll be weaker than someone who paid NX but you'll still be able to do endgame content)
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drezzt wrote on 2015-06-18 08:35
There are plenty of good ideas on this topic, so I'll post my opinion on the matter. In my experience with p2w, what dictates the severity of the p2w is the gap between a paying player and a non paying player. In this game, everyone has access to nx, because people purchase nx with in-game gold. However, it can be difficult to determine the line here. I think the largest deciding factor is the rate at which paying to play gives you an advantage. Take for example, guild wars 2. I've been playing for a year and half now; absolutely no p2w. This is because the gems (micro transaction currency) can be exchanged for gold, not with other players, but through the store itself. Furthermore, most items in the game are purely cosmetic. I have not spent a single dime on the game besides buying it, yet my gear and damage are pretty much on par with people who have purchased over hundreds of dollars in the gem store.
There is a p2w aspect in gw2, in the sense that you can exchange gems for gold, and use gold to buy items
In game that may give you a slight advantage. However, the way gw2 is designed, no matter how much a person pays, the gap between a non- payer and a paying player remains small, almost negligible.
So what makes a non-p2w game like gw2 different from a p2w game like mabi? The way content releases work is probably the biggest difference. With every major event or update, mabi releases things like super rare enchant scrolls. Say two people start with a similar amount of in game gold. One player dumps money into the game, buys the enchant. Other player either resorts to farming, or has to save up money over time in game to buy the enchant. By the time the player makes enough money, bam, next update comes out. Some stuff is made immediately irrelevant. For example, I saved up and purchased fine reformed in game, finally got my 2h to ice 6. Well, jokes on me because now I've gotta farm for 67th enchant too, or switch to dual blades or lances or some of the new Celtic or fanatic weapons. I can't pay, so I'll have to farm.
So yes, now that I've played games that are not pay 2 win, I absolutely think mabinogi is pay 2 win in how much of an advantage paying grants. There are many other examples and factors that play into my opinion, such as an illusion of accessibility, but ultimately the take away point is that in mabinogi, paying the company grants a player a significant advantage over a non-paying player, and I think it's something very evident once you observe the General mabinogi community.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Daakun wrote on 2015-08-13 06:12
Quote from Daakun;1277715:
So I guess overall, we're fine where we are now, but reforges have me leery.
New reforge types, new reforge bonus events.
Starting to get really worried.