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Chihaya wrote on 2010-09-05 14:58
Hello, I'm a disgruntled player on Mabinogi who is disgusted at some people for overlooking the Incubus Enchant for some other enchants. Please note that I'll be talking about enchants on weapons, and another piece of equipment that will make all the difference.
Arugably, the suffix enchant most effective, or "best", for melee and range is Spike. At r5, it is rather difficult to enchant, but the cost is lower than what its price is.
However, there are furious debates on which prefix enchant is best. From what I hear, it seems that the choice is among these three:
Incubus (r9)
Wolf Hunter (rC)
Shadow Hunter (r5)
I will now discuss the pros and cons of each of these.
Incubus Pros:
Adds 12 max damage when using the master of defense title
Also adds a bit of balance and minimum attack.
Easy to get. Incubuses are rather susceptible to Fire-ice-counter, and my mules can easily take him down if I took them to the boss using my main. It only takes longer =P (It's also possible to get your female friends and/or guildmates to get it for you.)
Incubus Cons:
Subtracts Luck
Adds 10% repair costs
Can only use "Master of Defense" title for maximum effectiveness
Need a rA Prefix enchant beforehand
Wolf Hunter Pros:
Adds 4~6 max damage
Low Enchant rank, so easy to enchant
Wolf Hunter Cons:
Considered "expensive" (Hell if i know why...)
Is a rather rare drop from monsters
Shadow Hunter Pros:
Does not require a certain title to be equipped, but with the proper skills, you get 10 max damage, 5 crit, and 15 HP bonus.
It is possible to enchant it on an item without any enchants beforehand
Shadow Hunter Cons:
at r5, it WILL destroy the item when failed
Hard to enchant at 46% success when using the ever-so-rare Ancient Powder. Without it, 36% is the max.
Adds 15% repair costs
Now let us look at it logically. Let's say that you are a melee player and is using a title to increase your STR by 30. Wow! you already get +12 max damage right off the bat! Enough to top the Incubus enchant, huh?
[SIZE="7"]WRONG![/SIZE]
Considering that all weapons have Spike enchanted beforehand and we're only looking at prefix, there are other combinations where Incubus will be able to overcome both of Wolf Hunt and Shadow Hunter.
Let's say you use the Incubus Enchant. Alright, you have +12 max damage on both your weapons... There's something we're missing.... Ah yes! A pair of incubus horns!! In case no one has noticed, the horns themselves are an equip-able equipment that adds 12 more max damage to EACH of the weapons on your hands, and therefore making your total bonus +24 max for each weapon.
Let's say that all Wolf Hunter adds +6 max damage. You start off with +6 max on each weapon, and you use the +30 STR title to make that +18 on each weapon. Then, the only thing that can add more to it is the Wolf Hunter Cap, only available by finishing Rundal Normal Hardmode. According to some of my friends, this cap can easily go for 300k, depending on how much max attack it adds. This gives you a grand total of +24 max damage. However, let me bring you back to reality: this is when ALL 3 of the wolf hunters are +6.
Shadow Hunter is definitely out for obvious reasons: it's too risky. At r5, it has an absolute maximum success at 46%, and I'm sure not everyone is rich enough to purchase Ancient Powders. At 36% Success, the possibility of you successfully enchanting Spike as well as Shadow Hunter on a weapon is ~4.67%. I'd say this percentage is quite low for the benefits you can possibly have. (which is a max damage of +22 each hand plus the possibility to add more using appropriate headgear). Shadow Hunter items themselves go well over 200k, and it's really not worth attempting unless you're ready to burn some major enchant protection potions.
This concludes my rant about ignorant people who think the "easy way out" is best. Please do note that this "rant" only affects melee and range, because maximum damage does not affect magic or alchemy.
Please let me know if there are anything I need to fix.
I am open to all discussions and arguments.
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Cide wrote on 2010-09-05 15:03
wolf hunter's really is easy to find. 2 hours tops running rundal hm and i have about 4 or 5 of them. :T
e; also, you're incorrect. max does affect alchemy and magic, but in different (and lesser) ways.
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Username wrote on 2010-09-05 15:12
Lizard.
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Zid wrote on 2010-09-05 15:16
I hate wearing Incubus horns, imo.
Plus, I'd rather re-enchant Wolf Hunter's multiple times for +6 max dmg rather than just go charging in every conflict with "the Master of Defense" title. Both are cons, but I see re-enchanting to be more beneficial in the long run.
Don't know why people say it's expensive. When I run Rundal Regular Hardmode, I get them a lot of the time; no need to change genders or ask a female player.
I prefer my "Maiz Discoverer" title over the "Master of Defense". I gain 3% Critical instead of losing 2%. Potion costs never matter to me.
Also, Enchant Protection potion sort of overshadows Ancient Powders.
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Aubog007 wrote on 2010-09-05 16:15
a 30 str or dex title adds 12 max damage to each weapon.
Therefore Incubus weapons and hat are invalid... and -60 luck + -10 luck for master of defense? that takes the whole point of me being age 10 away.
At least i can counteract the -20 luck from golem slayer in a single blow but -70? naw...
Maiz title as mentioned before is like a super boosted level 50 at age 10 title.
Shadow hunter is a nice semi-cheap prefix (to a degree)
Cypress or Wyllow is much better though if you can afford the Stam Loss.
Although it mainly comes down to playstyle.
Oh and for headgear?
Cold Gladiator with Gladiator title > Incubus (It's true for melee)
Just a royal pain to get them enchanted successfully (both are rank 8's for headgear.)
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Rebel wrote on 2010-09-05 16:43
Wolf Hunter still works in transformation, incubus does not.
As a dark knight, If i relied on incubus, that is a whole 6 damage i would be missing out on if i just used incubus, which would really make them useless to me, as i stay transed for as long as possible in dungeon/shadow missions where i even need to use spike broadswords in the first place.
Also the horns would be moot too.
So incubus is good yes, if you never transform.
But, i don't know anyone who doesn't transform, so they're bad.
Also, corundum delusional torks merchant cap adds more melee damage than your incubus horn, so corundum delusional(+14 melee/+16 range) and then the two wolf hunters and that can be used 100% of the time.
So let's see, Def Master Title + incubus horn + 2 incubus weapons = 24 max damage added
Hm.. let's be a little more fair, Def Master title + Corundum Delusional Hat (14melee) + 12 from your weapons = 26 damage. Hmm you're probably better off putting wild boar on incubus horns than corundum delusional hat.
But let's look at wolf hunters
+30 str Title + Corundum Delusional hat + x2 6 roll 1handed swords of the same type = 32 damage
Hell even if you get min roll on wolf hunter you will get more damage than incubus, that you can still use in trans.
I don't really see what there is to discuss.
Something you can use all the time and gives the most damage, or something that you can only use when you are in squishy human form.
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EndlessDreams wrote on 2010-09-05 16:56
I prefer Lizard better. Wolf Hunter is a cheap +max damage enchant that is also decent. I think Cypress is actually a good enchant, assuming you have crazy stamina.
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Rebel wrote on 2010-09-05 17:00
Quote from EndlessDreams;146970:
I prefer Lizard better. Wolf Hunter is a cheap +max damage enchant that is also decent. I think Cypress is actually a good enchant, assuming you have crazy stamina.
Yeaa cypress is a good one.
I'd use that over shadow hunter.
(but only one sword)
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Kyouriharu wrote on 2010-09-05 17:33
Lizard or Cyprus are easily my favorite enchants. Especially for a bow. Paired with Caliburn, there is nothing you can't crit.
Dual wield Goddess is hard to beat too.
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Phanterz wrote on 2010-09-05 17:47
Quote from Joyjason;146932:
Hello, I'm a disgruntled player on Mabinogi who is disgusted at some people for overlooking the Incubus Enchant for some other enchants. Please note that I'll be talking about enchants on weapons, and another piece of equipment that will make all the difference.
Arugably, the suffix enchant most effective, or "best", for melee and range is Spike. At r5, it is rather difficult to enchant, but the cost is lower than what its price is.
However, there are furious debates on which prefix enchant is best. From what I hear, it seems that the choice is among these three:
Incubus (r9)
Wolf Hunter (rC)
Shadow Hunter (r5)
I will now discuss the pros and cons of each of these.
Incubus Pros:
Adds 12 max damage when using the master of defense title
Also adds a bit of balance and minimum attack.
Easy to get. Incubuses are rather susceptible to Fire-ice-counter, and my mules can easily take him down if I took them to the boss using my main. It only takes longer =P (It's also possible to get your female friends and/or guildmates to get it for you.)
Incubus Cons:
Subtracts Luck
Adds 10% repair costs
Can only use "Master of Defense" title for maximum effectiveness
Need a rA Prefix enchant beforehand
Wolf Hunter Pros:
Adds 4~6 max damage
Low Enchant rank, so easy to enchant
Wolf Hunter Cons:
Considered "expensive" (Hell if i know why...)
Is a rather rare drop from monsters
Shadow Hunter Pros:
Does not require a certain title to be equipped, but with the proper skills, you get 10 max damage, 5 crit, and 15 HP bonus.
It is possible to enchant it on an item without any enchants beforehand
Shadow Hunter Cons:
at r5, it WILL destroy the item when failed
Hard to enchant at 46% success when using the ever-so-rare Ancient Powder. Without it, 36% is the max.
Adds 15% repair costs
Now let us look at it logically. Let's say that you are a melee player and is using a title to increase your STR by 30. Wow! you already get +12 max damage right off the bat! Enough to top the Incubus enchant, huh?
[SIZE="7"]WRONG![/SIZE]
Considering that all weapons have Spike enchanted beforehand and we're only looking at prefix, there are other combinations where Incubus will be able to overcome both of Wolf Hunt and Shadow Hunter.
Let's say you use the Incubus Enchant. Alright, you have +12 max damage on both your weapons... There's something we're missing.... Ah yes! A pair of incubus horns!! In case no one has noticed, the horns themselves are an equip-able equipment that adds 12 more max damage to EACH of the weapons on your hands, and therefore making your total bonus +24 max for each weapon.
Let's say that all Wolf Hunter adds +6 max damage. You start off with +6 max on each weapon, and you use the +30 STR title to make that +18 on each weapon. Then, the only thing that can add more to it is the Wolf Hunter Cap, only available by finishing Rundal Normal Hardmode. According to some of my friends, this cap can easily go for 300k, depending on how much max attack it adds. This gives you a grand total of +24 max damage. However, let me bring you back to reality: this is when ALL 3 of the wolf hunters are +6.
Shadow Hunter is definitely out for obvious reasons: it's too risky. At r5, it has an absolute maximum success at 46%, and I'm sure not everyone is rich enough to purchase Ancient Powders. At 36% Success, the possibility of you successfully enchanting Spike as well as Shadow Hunter on a weapon is ~4.67%. I'd say this percentage is quite low for the benefits you can possibly have. (which is a max damage of +22 each hand plus the possibility to add more using appropriate headgear). Shadow Hunter items themselves go well over 200k, and it's really not worth attempting unless you're ready to burn some major enchant protection potions.
This concludes my rant about ignorant people who think the "easy way out" is best. Please do note that this "rant" only affects melee and range, because maximum damage does not affect magic or alchemy.
Please let me know if there are anything I need to fix.
I am open to all discussions and arguments.
Flaws in the argument.
Wolf Hunter is not a 'best' prefix enchant. It isn't even close to being best, actually. Wolf Hunter is literally a newbie prefix enchant. So the fact that it can compare to Incubus is a bit ridiculous. You can reenchant Wolf Hunters without much risk.
Also, if you are really going for the 'best' prefix then it doesn't matter how many times you reenchant it, you can also use Enchant Protection.
I would say the argument of the 'best' prefixes are among:
*Goddess RD (+8 Max, +5 Min, +10 Str, Total +8.33~12)
*Wyllow R6 [maximum roll assumed] (+12 Max, but as low as 6)
*Shadow Hunter R5 (+10 max)
*Moment R3 (nearly impossible to get) (+12 Max if under 20, -6 Min if over 14)
Finally, you assumed that Wolf Hunter is the best hat enchant. From what I've seen, either Union or Cold as a prefix is better, and Gladiator as a suffix (which you can't use with Incubus horns, or Master of Defense title) is better.
Edit: Even worse, Incubus ties you to Master of Defense, which makes you unable to use enchants like Basic or Notion on your armor.
Edit 2: In case you didn't notice, Incubus horns are also male-only.
Though I would say that Incubus is a fairly good enchant for a
male noob player that just
happens to have r1 Defense...
Edit 3: Also, people like to use Stiff Tail Caps, and if you choose to do this using Incubus swords, you just lost 12 max as opposed to 6 max from wolf Hunter.
Edit 4:
Quote from Adori;146960:
Wolf Hunter still works in transformation, incubus does not.
As a dark knight, If i relied on incubus, that is a whole 6 damage i would be missing out on if i just used incubus, which would really make them useless to me, as i stay transed for as long as possible in dungeon/shadow missions where i even need to use spike broadswords in the first place.
Also the horns would be moot too.
So incubus is good yes, if you never transform.
But, i don't know anyone who doesn't transform, so they're bad.
This.
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Justified wrote on 2010-09-05 18:19
Spike isn't the best now that we have Horn and Caliburn.
Not to mention, you're citing the ~4% chance of Shadow Hunter Spike as a Con. However, since Spike is used as a common Suffix, the rates for that should be completely ignored. 36% for Shadow Hunter versus the 77% -> 54% of Incubus (41% for a perfect enchant, though it has room for fails). IMO, I'd rather risk Shadow Hunter than use Incubus. Not only is it less work, but it's better. If you count only the Damage effects, then ranking Water Cannon is also easier and faster than ranking Defense.
As for the Hat, Wolf Hunter isn't the best hat there is. In fact, couple with Tragic or Burst Knight, Incubus only gets +16 damage. There are alternatives which get +14 damage without strict requirements.
The max for an Incubus set using Spike as a suffix is
Hat (+16 damage)
Weapons (+22 damage, +8 from STR)
Title (+0)
+46 damage total, and +22 in trans.
Compared to Wolf Hunter...
Hat (+14 damage)
Weapons (+16 damage, +8 from STR)
Title (+12 damage)
+50 damage total, and +38 in trans.
And compared to Shadow Hunter/Lion Hunter
Hat (+14 damage)
Weapons (+20 damage, +8 from STR)
Title (+12 damage)
+54 damage total, +42 in trans
If you count Master of Spark, then the Non-Incubus builds get boosted even more outside of trans.
Lol I had to edit that like 6 times. Too early for thinking.
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Shirayuki wrote on 2010-09-05 18:21
Goddess' Spike is still best in my eyes... You get an extra 40 STR iirc, and you get your title, so each weapon gets 46 max or something.
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Taliya wrote on 2010-09-05 19:00
Quote from Justified;147004:
As for the Hat, Wolf Hunter isn't the best hat there is. In fact, couple with Tragic or Burst Knight, Incubus only gets +16 damage. There are alternatives which get +14 damage without strict requirements.
Wolf hunter is a prefix while tragic and burst knight are suffixes. A better damage prefix would be Cold.
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Justified wrote on 2010-09-05 19:05
Quote from Taliya;147022:
Wolf hunter is a prefix while tragic and burst knight are suffixes. A better damage prefix would be Cold.
I stated that there are alternatives to get +14 damage. That includes Cold (+Gladiator).
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Beepuke wrote on 2010-09-05 19:13
For hats, you have either for prefixes - corundum (+6), union (+8), cold (+7) - and suffixes - burst knight (+4), Gladiator (+7), delusional (+8), wild boar (+3), or tragic (+4). The max damage helm/hat would be union gladiator (+15) and the max you can get with incubus is (+16) HOWEVER this requires you to be potion poison state.
I'm sure I could make a more comprehensive argument but suffice to say there are definitely other enchants that are better than incubus, especially since they don't have title restrictions and don't reduce crit.