is this case of merchanting wrong??

• Emile wrote on 2010-04-22 01:16

  Quote from Justified;13787:

  You're absolutely right, there's nothing wrong with me buying out a bunch of tickets to the big game and then selling them for profit once the box office sells out, right? It's an honest buck. Oh wait, that's illegal. "Scalping," or merchanting tickets, is considered dirty and is illegal because the scalper is making a large profit for doing absolutely nothing.
  Houses involve actual risk and upkeep. A better comparison would be buying a colored Gacha weapon, proffing it to 100, and then selling it. You invest money in the house/weapon, take care of it for a while, then after it develops you reap in the profits. You risk the house being a dud, the housing market not rising, the colored weapon falling below egoable, or enchants destroying that nice 18dur smithed Broadsword. Unlike merchanting/scalping, you don't just sit on your arse doing nothing.
  In addition, ever read the label "Not for resale"?
  
  
  
  This all the way.
  Merchants are kind of like double scammers. They scam the good will of people offering low prices to help out their buyers, and they scam the buyers by making them pay more than they should for what they want, generally well above market value.
  
  
  A living isn't "honest" if you don't contribute in anyway to the community. All merchants/ scammers/ scalpers do is take from it.
  On the other hand, I honestly do dislike people making money too easily when they don't deserve it.
  I do accept merchanting in forms of:
  1. Person A doesn't have a proper way to sell so person B buys and sells for higher in his Shop/House.
  2. Person A has a set price (not haggled) below market value. Person B buys and sells at market value.
  Anything beyond that is pretty much driven by greed and taking advantage of people.

  
  
  Scalping in reality is illegal, but makes money regardless.
  In a game, the same method of scalping is completely legal and still makes money.
  Seeing how we're talking about a game, bringing up real-life scalping is useless.
  
  Additionally, your talk about how real estate in reality is like proficiency is all good, but consider it's entirely possible to make your money by hoping the housing market goes up.
  It might not happen, but if it does, it required little to no effort to gain this money.
  If you want, you can fix up the house for more value, which is the same as proficiency on an item, but it's not needed.
  The market can easily make it worth more just through inflation & deflation.
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-22 01:36
  You fail to see the connections I'm making.
  
  

  Quote from Emile;14558:

  Scalping in reality is illegal, but makes money regardless.
  In a game, the same method of scalping is completely legal and still makes money.
  Seeing how we're talking about a game, bringing up real-life scalping is useless.

  
  
  The reason I bring up scalping is indeed the fact that it is illegal in the real world. Things in the real world are illegal because they are bad. They are not bad because they are illegal. There are very few, if any, laws in developed countries that don't have some kind of moral backing to them (those are either tossed aside or ignored by both citizens and law enforcement) Scalping is not ignored by law enforcement and scalpers are still punished if they are caught.
  The fact that it's in a game doesn't really change anything. Sure, it's not as serious seeing as how money and the economy aren't really the same and aren't life and death, but it's the same principle. I won't call a merchanter as corrupt and greedy as a scalper, but they're still doing the same act of immorality. The difference is that a game is just a game, and life actually matters.
  
  

  Additionally, your talk about how real estate in reality is like proficiency is all good, but consider it's entirely possible to make your money by hoping the housing market goes up.
  It might not happen, but if it does, it required little to no effort to gain this money.
  If you want, you can fix up the house for more value, which is the same as proficiency on an item, but it's not needed.
  The market can easily make it worth more just through inflation & deflation.

  
  
  For the house, you aren't scamming the seller or the buyer when you invest in it. You're buying and selling at the defined and reasonable price of the time, it's value has merely changed. You are not getting it for a steal and selling it as a rip-off, you're just reaping the benefits of a fluctuating economy.
• MrShandavio wrote on 2010-04-22 01:38
  I don't see anything wrong with buying something, waiting until its value rises, and then selling it it for a profit.
  
  Who cares if you put any work into it, or invested anything in it?
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-22 01:56

  Quote from MrShandavio;14586:

  I don't see anything wrong with buying something, waiting until its value rises, and then selling it it for a profit.
  
  Who cares if you put any work into it, or invested anything in it?

  
  
  I don't either. That's not exactly the same as what merchants more commonly do - haggle people down saying they need it and then hiking up the price above double or even triple in the same day (or shortly after) when the actual value hasn't really changed. I consider those two to be different things, the former being acceptable and the latter being rotten.
• MrShandavio wrote on 2010-04-22 01:58
  Right. I don't see a problem with that either. It's intelligent.
  
  Now, if you happen to haggle a "friend" down, like the OP, well, that's more a matter of ethics and is between those two people. As far as I'm concerned, neither concept is "rotten".
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-22 02:20

  Quote from MrShandavio;14617:

  Right. I don't see a problem with that either. It's intelligent.
  
  Now, if you happen to haggle a "friend" down, like the OP, well, that's more a matter of ethics and is between those two people. As far as I'm concerned, neither concept is "rotten".

  
  
  How are the ethics between a person and his friend different than the ethics between a person and a stranger?
  Both the friend and the stranger are human beings. Both deserve just as much as the other.
  
  As for it being intelligent, that's not completely true. Businesses and businessmen are often though of as greedy, selfish, corrupt, etc because of their actions. While it's "intelligent" in respect to gaining power and wealth, it's not "intelligent" in the form of morality and ethics. For example...
  
  Nexon. They're being intelligent, they're getting tons of NX from all of use who pay for rebirths, pets, and service. They're also being intelligent by cutting on costs by having complete crap for customer service. Sure, they're driving away a lot of potential customers, but at the end of the day there's still a lot of use shelling out $10 or more a month, and for some people more than $20 a week. And how many of us are honestly happy with Nexon's performance?
• MrShandavio wrote on 2010-04-22 02:58
  The difference in ethics is very noticeable. Getting a good deal on an item and reselling it for profit is a lot easier to do when you get it from a stranger, at least in most cases. Either way, ethics aren't really even relevant. Anyone playing the game knows at least A LITTLE about the items and the currency. It's not like we're all natives from an island who've never seen money before and are having it stolen. You should know beforehand what the item you're selling is worth, and you should know that selling it for below market value is an invitation for that person to re-sell it. If you don't look up what it's worth before selling it, you deserved to be "merchant'd".
  
  And I still consider it to be an intelligent trade. Anyone can grind levels and skills and have an upper hand in battle (not saying stats mean everything; that's not the argument I'm making... I only mean that battle comes easier with high-ranked skills and a high level). But not everyone has the mind and dedication to buy and sell.
  
  It's a full-time job. Look at antique salesman or pawn shops or whatever. They take something someone might not think is worth a lot, and then either fix it up and re-sell it (an example would be an old car), or simply hold onto it and resell it when its worth more (something like collectible cards). Either way, it takes a lot of thinking, and isn't always dirty.
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-22 03:29
  Easier to do because it's a stranger? That's not ethics. Ethics should be universally applicable regardless of relations.
  If anything the fact that it's harder to do to a friend proves that what you're doing is wrong - because you feel guilt or resent for cheating somebody close to you. (Either that or you just don't want to get caught)
  
  Saying not everybody has the mind and dedication to buy and sell doesn't really work. You say that anybody can grind levels but not everybody can merchant. I can say the opposite - anybody can merchant but not everybody can reach level 1438. The problem with both statements is that they assume everybody actually wants to merchant or be high level, when in reality many people enjoy the game without fortune or high levels.
  
  Antique salesmen and pawn shops are iffy examples. As for the collectible card, some people feel it is immoral to take advantage of a trade when the other person doesn't know the true value of something. That's like me saying "this Dustin is a one-of-a-kind per server item, it's extremely rare and worth 10 mil!" Many people would call that a scam, the only difference is that the scammer is buying (not selling) in the case of the card.
  
  Basically: what I'm trying to say is that trades that don't follow a categorical imperative are edging on corruption. It basically states - act as if your actions were the same actions that everybody else will always choose. If you merchant, than every trade would be merchanted. In the end, trades wouldn't occur because everybody would just assume they were going to be merchanted. Why should I sell you my item? You're just going to resell it anyways.
• MrShandavio wrote on 2010-04-22 03:55
  I really don't get where you're coming from at this point. I think you're too hung up on ethics and honesty; doing what's right. All I can say is, not everybody is equal. As far as your last point, with everyone choosing the same actions as everyone else to create an equal world - there's a reason no world is like that. Some people live by the rules and morals, others take advantage of/exploit opportunities. It's this mix that creates our real world and this game's world. Whichever you choose to live by is your own opinion, but there's a reason some people have more than others.
• Athde wrote on 2010-04-22 04:01
  If it's a friend you should at least tell them the truth about what you're gonna do with it. If it's a stranger well. Don't ask don't tell. Not like they can get mad. Unless you do business with them regularly merchanting shouldn't be a problem. After all that's just the way the world is.
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-22 04:20

  Quote from MrShandavio;14789:

  I really don't get where you're coming from at this point. I think you're too hung up on ethics and honesty; doing what's right. All I can say is, not everybody is equal. As far as your last point, with everyone choosing the same actions as everyone else to create an equal world - there's a reason no world is like that. Some people live by the rules and morals, others take advantage of/exploit opportunities. It's this mix that creates our real world and this game's world. Whichever you choose to live by is your own opinion, but there's a reason some people have more than others.

  
  
  I didn't say the world can/would be like that, I said that a single person should choose his actions based on that reasoning. It's obvious that merchanting makes easy cash - the question is whether or not it is moral/ethical practice. That's the whole point of this thread, the OP asks if what her "friend" did was wrong.
  Your final statement - that the world exploits opportunities and such - merely says that the world is an unethical place. That should also be obvious.
• bebepanales wrote on 2010-04-22 04:59

  Quote from MrShandavio;14706:

  You should know beforehand what the item you're selling is worth, and you should know that selling it for below market value is an invitation for that person to re-sell it. If you don't look up what it's worth before selling it, you deserved to be "merchant'd".

  
  
  i knew what it was worth. i checked in housing. the thing is he asked for almost half that price, and i gave him a price below that. if i gave him a price below a friend discount he expected, shouldn't it mean anything to him? and what was all that bs of him wanting to have a complete set? and thinking about dye'ing some parts of it?? doesn't that imply his own usage??
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-04-22 05:18

  Quote from MrShandavio;14706:

  The difference in ethics is very noticeable. Getting a good deal on an item and reselling it for profit is a lot easier to do when you get it from a stranger, at least in most cases. Either way, ethics aren't really even relevant. Anyone playing the game knows at least A LITTLE about the items and the currency. It's not like we're all natives from an island who've never seen money before and are having it stolen. You should know beforehand what the item you're selling is worth, and you should know that selling it for below market value is an invitation for that person to re-sell it. If you don't look up what it's worth before selling it, you deserved to be "merchant'd".

  
  

  Quote from bebepanales;14841:

  i knew what it was worth. i checked in housing. the thing is he asked for almost half that price, and i gave him a price below that. if i gave him a price below a friend discount he expected, shouldn't it mean anything to him? and what was all that bs of him wanting to have a complete set? and thinking about dye'ing some parts of it?? doesn't that imply his own usage??

  
  
  
  Yeah, the thing isn't that bebepanales didn't know the price.. it wasn't a "good deal", and in this situation, ethics are huge. This person was her friend, and they betrayed the trust that comes with what we call friend discounts. It wasn't originally priced at that, it wasn't carelessness, it was an honest favor for a friend. And so ethics do matter here.
• Kyouria wrote on 2010-04-22 05:40

  Quote from Yogurticecream;13464:

  However, if I gave something to someone as a gift and they decided to sell it, I won't really say anything about that since it is their item already. Because it's a gift.

  
  
  [FONT="Arial"]Yeah, but purposefully taking advantage of your friends to make profit is an obvious no-no. Maybe its just my biased opinion, but buying from a stranger and selling an item for a higher price is "okay". It's what merchants do in a free market transaction. But in Bebepanales's situation, it was her friend. I think it makes all the difference. If your friend did ask and comment about using it for himself, it does imply that he would. :c[/FONT]
• Cucurbita wrote on 2010-04-22 05:55
  Capitalism sure is grand.