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Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-10-08 15:51
Quote from psyal;179232:
What exactly does this supply entail? I find making the crystals time consuming enough already.
Like, for that mission in Taill. where you can get 99.9% get golem crystals out of the end chest and golem itself, the crystal does not come out like that anymore.
Meaning that you are definitely required to make it.
I can confirm that it doesn't come out, at least for snow golems during G12S2, for that one time I was there just to get the journal accomplishment for that place.
People used to spam missions for the crystal alone you see.
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psyal wrote on 2010-10-08 15:55
Not sure how exactly you can spam it, seeing as it takes some time for each run, and each one only giving one crystals guaranteed.
But I guess some people just don't like making the crystals then.
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Kenero wrote on 2010-10-08 16:00
Well, if anything, I am seeing that if they do a nerf on power of golem, it'll probably be a nerf to make golems pre-g13. Meaning still the same power, just harder to obtain the crystals.
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wolfram wrote on 2010-10-08 16:39
Quote from psyal;179236:
Not sure how exactly you can spam it, seeing as it takes some time for each run, and each one only giving one crystals guaranteed.
But I guess some people just don't like making the crystals then.
You can spam it for the crystals. I can run that SM Hard in 7-8 mins solo.
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Phunkie wrote on 2010-10-08 16:52
Quote from wolfram;179259:
You can spam it for the crystals. I can run that SM Hard in 7-8 mins solo.
Takes me about 10~15 minutes, for 1 crystal, which lasts a maximum of 6 min.
Seems silly to nerf it.
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Justified wrote on 2010-10-08 16:58
Quote from Karmel;179170:
Apperntly koreans dont enjoy not dying in missions, people always bawwing and qquing about golems, well listen achelmy skill set takes ALOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of ap so we dont have the extra to pump into strg boosting skills so the golem is our meele side, just get the hell over it Basicly anyone who complaines about alchemy is just a hater cause they made a better choice.
This makes me lol.
Golem and Mastery only takes 327 AP, and alone makes it more powerful than melee characters with rank 1 across the board. A single magic skill costs upwards of 380AP, not including Magic Mastery or other Int skills. Range requires assloads of work to get decent Dex.
The only downside to ranking alchemy is the need for crystals (which honestly isn't
that much of a problem, and the fact that non-golem skills are usually weaker than their melee/magic counterparts.
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Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-10-08 17:29
You forgot about the time limit for crystals. Golems cannot last beyond 4 minutes. One mission takes about 15-30 minutes average, one golem crystal is definitely insufficient. I can see why they feel bad for the golem users since the skill isn't as invincible as some non-users see it as.
Also note that alchemy is mostly a party type skill. Magic can be a standalone.
Golem isn't that easy too, imagine the hell of windmilling you have to do each rank on top of making the crystals and using them up. It feels like forcing yourself through WM rank 4 again for all the golem ranks.
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Phunkie wrote on 2010-10-08 17:34
Quote from Yogurticecream;179286:
You forgot about the time limit for crystals. Golems cannot last beyond 4 minutes. One mission takes about 15-30 minutes average, one golem crystal is definitely insufficient. I can see why they feel bad for the golem users since the skill isn't as invincible as some non-users see it as.
Also note that alchemy is mostly a party type skill. Magic can be a standalone.
Golem isn't that easy too, imagine the hell of windmilling you have to do each rank on top of making the crystals and using them up. It feels like forcing yourself through WM rank 4 again for all the golem ranks.
Yes! And Golem dies quicker with WM.
Unless you can one-shot a whole room, you'll have trouble with multi-aggro.
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Deitylight wrote on 2010-10-08 17:47
Quote from Yogurticecream;179286:
You forgot about the time limit for crystals. Golems cannot last beyond 4 minutes. One mission takes about 15-30 minutes average, one golem crystal is definitely insufficient. I can see why they feel bad for the golem users since the skill isn't as invincible as some non-users see it as.
Also note that alchemy is mostly a party type skill. Magic can be a standalone.
Golem isn't that easy too, imagine the hell of windmilling you have to do each rank on top of making the crystals and using them up. It feels like forcing yourself through WM rank 4 again for all the golem ranks.
Quote from Phunkie;179290:
Yes! And Golem dies quicker with WM.
Unless you can one-shot a whole room, you'll have trouble with multi-aggro.
I couldn;t agree more with you guys.
People forgot how hard it is to rank alchemy mastery and to get the white herbs for ranking golem in the first place.
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Justified wrote on 2010-10-08 18:08
Quote from Yogurticecream;179286:
You forgot about the time limit for crystals. Golems cannot last beyond 4 minutes. One mission takes about 15-30 minutes average, one golem crystal is definitely insufficient. I can see why they feel bad for the golem users since the skill isn't as invincible as some non-users see it as.
Also note that alchemy is mostly a party type skill. Magic can be a standalone.
Golem isn't that easy too, imagine the hell of windmilling you have to do each rank on top of making the crystals and using them up. It feels like forcing yourself through WM rank 4 again for all the golem ranks.
15 minutes for what mission? SCC Hard doesn't even take me 15 minutes and I don't have 537 damage and 100% crit with a larger Windmill radius (Sulfer Golem 406 max + 70% crit is still above most characters, and much easier to farm). Sure it can't be done in 4 minutes, but it's not like you need that many either. Compare the cost of decent gear to the price of Snow/Sulfer Golem crystals and you have enough to last for weeks, maybe months.
Compared to repair costs, people using Goddess Broads/Beholders/War Swords pay over 10k per point at Edern. Dual wielding, that's around 2-3 points per mission, or the equivalent to 2-3 Snow Golems on Ruairi. Resources-wise, it's the same thing.
For me, AP is the biggest hindrance to character development. Gathering crystals, farming materials, or grinding skills has never been anywhere near as much of a problem, which is why I don't really like the whole Magic Mastery thing.
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Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-10-08 18:23
I'm talking about Tara castle missions.
I do know other missions that take at least 9 minutes, but seriously using golem over there is pointless due to the speed of aggro and the range of aggro.
Reducing golem crystal supply is meant to drive up the price you see. This is the only point I agree on for the nerf. I don't agree that golem needs to be nerfed in terms of pre-G13 power.
Repair cost wise, that's based on personal choice because there are so many other alternatives for enchants. You don't need to use goddess/caliburn, in fact I see those weapons as high-end and are meant to be used sparingly or you pay the price. I know of a lot of people who survive well with things like stiff/acriminous even at the high 1000+ levels. I survive well enough with lich/barbarian.
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Justified wrote on 2010-10-08 18:40
Quote from Yogurticecream;179313:
I'm talking about Tara castle missions.
I do know other missions that take at least 9 minutes, but seriously using golem over there is pointless due to the speed of aggro and the range of aggro.
Reducing golem crystal supply is meant to drive up the price you see. This is the only point I agree on for the nerf. I don't agree that golem needs to be nerfed in terms of pre-G13 power.
Repair cost wise, that's based on personal choice because there are so many other alternatives for enchants. You don't need to use goddess/caliburn, in fact I see those weapons as high-end and are meant to be used sparingly or you pay the price. I know of a lot of people who survive well with things like stiff/acriminous even at the high 1000+ levels. I survive well enough with lich/barbarian.
I mentioned the repair costs because I was comparing the price between a melee character and the cost/difficulty of maintaining Sulfer/Snows to use as a primary weapon. While it's possible to survive with average enchants, the point was that the most expensive and developed characters spend the same/more than a Golem user, who supposedly fails due to needing crystals - which is kind of an exaggeration.
I honestly don't think Golem needs a nerf that much. If anything, the most broken part is that your character is still able to load skills (ie Counter/Music) which takes away from the vulnerable/useless aspect. Perhaps a control range reduction or something, crystal nerf works too.
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Kenero wrote on 2010-10-08 18:41
Ooh, I remember someone told me that alchemy wasn't mean to be taken seriously and it's a joke/funny alternative to magic.
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Phunkie wrote on 2010-10-08 18:44
If Magic still fails in comparison to pre-G13 come G13, I'm pretty sure they'll rework it.
And I'm sure they'll see how Throwing Attack still fails, as well.
It just takes time, IMO. :(
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Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-10-08 18:59
Quote from Justified;179326:
I mentioned the repair costs because I was comparing the price between a melee character and the cost/difficulty of maintaining Sulfer/Snows to use as a primary weapon. While it's possible to survive with average enchants, the point was that the most expensive and developed characters spend the same/more than a Golem user, who supposedly fails due to needing crystals - which is kind of an exaggeration.
I honestly don't think Golem needs a nerf that much. If anything, the most broken part is that your character is still able to load skills (ie Counter/Music) which takes away from the vulnerable/useless aspect. Perhaps a control range reduction or something, crystal nerf works too.
I also do wonder if they should allow golem control outside of dungeon rooms. If anything, golem users can still put down barrier spikes for protection, which still makes them vulnerable since party windmill hits the barrier hard. The range of golem is alright.