Ethnocentrism

• Chillax wrote on 2010-10-21 19:05

  Haha, I see this all the time. Mainland China people and Taiwan people are still hating on each other. It's really sad. I mean, we're all chinese...

  
  
  Would it be accurate to say French and English people are German because they originated from Germanic tribes? Also, would you say Taiwanese aboriginals are Chinese?
  
  

  This is so true! My dad hates China people like mad. I just haven't told him that my boyfriend is from mainland China yet...LOL. But the parents tend to want to pass the hate down to their children and they're very stubborn/narrow-minded when it comes to trying to convince them out of their hate. I mean, seriously. Why hate on something that happened in the past? Sure, the Japanese may have killed tons of Chinese before or something, but it's not like the current Japanese people are still doing that. You can't blame children for what their ancestors have done.

  
  
  Actually, all of this didn't happen too long ago. A lot of mainland Chinese people that persecuted the Taiwanese are still alive today, and some may still be in office. Chang Ching-Kuo left office in 1988, and martial law was only lifted 1 year before. A big reason that a lot of Taiwanese people speak Chinese is because they were forced to in schools, or they would face a fine and other punishment, like beating.
  
  Since Taiwan had a headstart on mainland China due to technological advancements that the Japanese left behind during their occupation, Taiwan in general became a lot richer than China. That has since changed, but a lot of mainland Chinese people took advantage of Taiwanese people, which probably added to the disgust that the Taiwanese felt for them. Also, China pointing missles at Taiwan and constantly blocking attempts at independence aren't exactly conducive to friendship between both countries (I believe that Taiwan is its own country).
  
  Anyways, video is related to topic.
  
  [video=youtube;Ptyzc4BQliY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptyzc4BQliY[/video]
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-10-22 00:18

  Quote from Chillax;190267:

  Would it be accurate to say French and English people are German because they originated from Germanic tribes? Also, would you say Taiwanese aboriginals are Chinese?
  
  Actually, all of this didn't happen too long ago. A lot of mainland Chinese people that persecuted the Taiwanese are still alive today, and some may still be in office. Chang Ching-Kuo left office in 1988, and martial law was only lifted 1 year before. A big reason that a lot of Taiwanese people speak Chinese is because they were forced to in schools, or they would face a fine and other punishment, like beating.
  
  Since Taiwan had a headstart on mainland China due to technological advancements that the Japanese left behind during their occupation, Taiwan in general became a lot richer than China. That has since changed, but a lot of mainland Chinese people took advantage of Taiwanese people, which probably added to the disgust that the Taiwanese felt for them. Also, China pointing missles at Taiwan and constantly blocking attempts at independence aren't exactly conducive to friendship between both countries (I believe that Taiwan is its own country).

  
  
  I don't think that aboriginals are part of the current "country". As in, I don't think the aboriginals in Canada are Canadian or the ones in the US are American. Therefore, Taiwanese aboriginals aren't Chinese or Taiwanese to me. They're...whatever their tribe is called. Also, Taiwan's population mostly consists of people who came from China before, not Taiwanese aboriginals.
  
  Technically Japanese and Koreans are Chinese since they originated from China, but that was so long ago and their cultures are so different that it doesn't matter anymore now. But China and Taiwan did not break apart that long ago and their cultures are not that different. We all still mostly believe in the same old Chinese legends and stories and whatever.
  
  Also, I don't really care what China has done to Taiwan. Sure, you can hate the government, but it's not the fault of the citizens. The problem is that the citizens who have never really done anything wrong are hating on each other because their governments told them to or their parents told them to or they just grew up knowing to hate. Hating another person because of the government of the country they originated from is just wrong. It's like maybe some Americans hating on Middle-East people because of 9/11. It's not like every Middle-East person was involved with/agreed to that.
  
  And just in case you think I'm biased because I'm from China, I'm actually from Taiwan. I also believe Taiwan is its own country, but I don't believe in any of this "taiwanese" or whatever. Chinese is still the main language in Taiwan and no mainland China-ers are enforcing that. Err, well I guess the more correct term would be Mandarin. Like I don't really think people from England and people from the US/Canada are any different either. They're all...English...caucasian, whatever.
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-10-22 00:32
  I don't actually see Taiwan as a country. It hasn't been long enough since the change for me to adjust, since I don't even think about it often. Whenever Taiwan is mentioned I unconsciously think of it as part of China.
  
  Honestly, it doesn't make a difference apart from a little pride. Most of their trade is from China. They speak Chinese. Their culture is essentially the same.
  
  
  I'd need some more distinction to think of Taiwan as independent.
  
  Of course, there's a difference between politically independent and morally independent.. or whatever you want to call it.
  
  
  It's tough for a few friends of mine who are from Taiwan. They usually say they're Chinese, since some people go, "o_o" when anyone says Taiwanese. And when they say they're Chinese their parents get wrapped up in Taiwan pride and scold them.
• Intex wrote on 2010-10-22 01:03
  Taiwan has most of the characteristics many other countries have- population size, national identity, it's own economy, etc.
  The only problem is that there's no way in hell China will let Taiwan become a recognized country.
  Any country that hints at Taiwan being a country gets shot by China and these countries can't do anything because of China's power.
  Taiwan and China are still fighting over who has Taiwan land, and we know how rage China can get over land.
  
  So you can either say that Taiwan is not a country or that it is a country.
  On one side it's not an official country but it does have many of the features that created the countries we have today.
• Chillax wrote on 2010-10-22 01:04

  Quote from Ailyene;190539:

  I don't think that aboriginals are part of the current "country". As in, I don't think the aboriginals in Canada are Canadian or the ones in the US are American. Therefore, Taiwanese aboriginals aren't Chinese or Taiwanese to me. They're...whatever their tribe is called. Also, Taiwan's population mostly consists of people who came from China before, not Taiwanese aboriginals.
  
  Technically Japanese and Koreans are Chinese since they originated from China, but that was so long ago and their cultures are so different that it doesn't matter anymore now. But China and Taiwan did not break apart that long ago and their cultures are not that different. We all still mostly believe in the same old Chinese legends and stories and whatever.
  
  Also, I don't really care what China has done to Taiwan. Sure, you can hate the government, but it's not the fault of the citizens. The problem is that the citizens who have never really done anything wrong are hating on each other because their governments told them to or their parents told them to or they just grew up knowing to hate. Hating another person because of the government of the country they originated from is just wrong. It's like maybe some Americans hating on Middle-East people because of 9/11. It's not like every Middle-East person was involved with/agreed to that.
  
  And just in case you think I'm biased because I'm from China, I'm actually from Taiwan. I also believe Taiwan is its own country, but I don't believe in any of this "taiwanese" or whatever. Chinese is still the main language in Taiwan and no mainland China-ers are enforcing that. Err, well I guess the more correct term would be Mandarin. Like I don't really think people from England and people from the US/Canada are any different either. They're all...English...caucasian, whatever.

  
  
  I was merely giving a background on the situation. Exactly how long ago does the divergence have to be for peoples to be separate?
  
  Here's something about the topic from a website I found.
  
  

  Here is a list of political entities that have ruled Taiwan:
  
  The Dutch Empire (1624-62): Ruled Southern Taiwan and drove out Spanish in the north.
  
  The Spanish Empire (1626- 42): Ruled Northern Taiwan.
  
  The Ming Empire (1662-83): Taiwan was an outpost for a great anti-Qing general, a Ming loyalist.
  
  The Qing Empire (1683-1895): Taiwan was became a province of the Qing Empire in 1882.
  
  The Republic of Formosa (1895): This was a short-lived republic formed in response to the abandonment of Taiwan by the Qing Empire.
  
  The Japanese Empire (1895-1945): The Japanese left a double legacy, both suppressing the Taiwanese and substantially modernizing the island.
  
  Republic of China (1945-present): The Kuomintang acquired the right to administer Taiwan from Japan after its defeat in WWII. The island has been in the control of ROC government since then.
  
  N.B.: The People's Republic of China has never ruled Taiwan.
  
  Per the provisions in Article 2 of San Francisco Peace Treaty, the Japanese formally renounced the territorial sovereignty of Taiwan and Penghu islands, and the treaty was signed in 1951 and came into force in 1952. Due to the fact China had no one certain legitimate government in power at the time of treaty signing, none of the governments claimed to be the rightful representative of China that time was invited to the treaty signing as neither shown full and complete legal capacity in entering into an international legally binding agreement.
  
  Taiwan and Penghu Islands, as of the moment when the SFPT came into force, becomes a limbo cession with its political status undetermined. The treaty is to be in conformity with the Charter of UN, so that implies the issues regarding Taiwan's sovereignty would need to be dealt in accordance to the charter. In that sense, sovereignty of Taiwan and Penghu islands will be possessed by the natural persons on Taiwan and Penghu islands... and its political status shall be determined via self determination principle as stated in Article 1 Section 2 of the Charter of UN and Article 1 Section 1 of the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
  
  As of today, such right to self determine has not been officially exercised by the natural persons of Taiwan today. As of today, Taiwan remains independent of China or any foreign entities, and Taiwan remains to be a limbo cession that is in state of de facto independence but not de jure.

  
  
  There is also this map from 1136 AD of China and its territories, which happens to not include Taiwan, which contradicts the claim that the Kingdom of Wu had discovered Taiwan and claimed it for its own on 230 AD.
  
  

  [Image: http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/ultima_halo/60015_540243111465_15400535_31942033_1779582_n.jpg]
• Narc wrote on 2010-10-22 01:17
  I have some friends that have 'Korean Superiority Complex'. They joke about it, but some of them, you can tell they mean it.
  I like to think that we're all monkeys.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-10-22 01:28
  Hm. Well, I don't know how long ago the divergence should be for them to be considered separate, but like Kazuni said, they both still speak the same language/have similar cultural views/etc. , so I just consider both to be the same culture.
  
  However, I think Taiwan is politically a separate country. China doesn't actually have a direct influence on Taiwan. Like it can't just tell Taiwan to do ___ and then Taiwan has to do ___. Taiwan completely governs itself/has its own president/etc, so it's its own country. Like Intex said, the only reason Taiwan is not considered a country by some other countries is because China is pressuring them to do so.
  
  ANYWAYS, to be back on topic, I just hate people who hate each other because of racial issues. Come on, spread the love!
• Chillax wrote on 2010-10-22 03:54
  I could make an argument about how there are plenty of places around the world that speak the same language and have similar customs, but are countries, like Austria, Croatia, and the Czech Republic, or how the Taiwanese dialect is spoken in Taiwan, but I guess I'll refrain. I'll just say that we're all African.
  
  I don't mind a bit of racial pride, especially when no one is offended. Most of the racial issues we encounter in this age stem from territorial or resource disputes between countries, so as long as countries have separate interests, there will always be problems with this.
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-10-22 04:27

  Quote from Chillax;190737:

  I could make an argument about how there are plenty of places around the world that speak the same language and have similar customs, but are countries, like Austria, Croatia, and the Czech Republic, or how the Taiwanese dialect is spoken in Taiwan, but I guess I'll refrain. I'll just say that we're all African.
  
  I don't mind a bit of racial pride, especially when no one is offended. Most of the racial issues we encounter in this age stem from territorial or resource disputes between countries, so as long as countries have separate interests, there will always be problems with this.

  
  
  The problem with Taiwan is not just the language and culture... it's also the tiny amount of land and the surrounding area.
  
  It's practically completely surrounded by China. Sure China can't tell Taiwan exactly what to do, but with the amount of trade going on between the two, there's hardly any difference from before.
  
  I think the whole thing with Taiwan is just reminiscent of the old civil war.
• Chillax wrote on 2010-10-22 04:44

  The problem with Taiwan is not just the language and culture... it's also the tiny amount of land and the surrounding area. It's practically completely surrounded by China.

  
  
  I don't see how this is relevant. It's about as exposed to China as are Japan and Korea. The US is also very intent on maintaining Taiwan as a buffer state between itself and China.
  
  

  Sure China can't tell Taiwan exactly what to do, but with the amount of trade going on between the two, there's hardly any difference from before.

  
  
  Taiwan also does business with the Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, and Korea, to mention a few. Yes, China is a major trading partner, but it is not Taiwan's only economical link, considering the % of imported Chinese goods to Taiwan is still less than half of Taiwan's total imports.
  
  

  I think the whole thing with Taiwan is just reminiscent of the old civil war.

  
  
  Considering Taiwan has been an independent entity for so long, I don't see a reason why Taiwan should not be formally recognized as a country.
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-10-22 05:13

  Quote from Chillax;190799:

  I don't see how this is relevant. It's about as exposed to China as are Japan and Korea. The US is also very intent on maintaining Taiwan as a buffer state between itself and China.
  
  
  
  Taiwan also does business with the Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, and Korea, to mention a few. Yes, China is a major trading partner, but it is not Taiwan's only economical link, considering the % of imported Chinese goods to Taiwan is still less than half of Taiwan's total imports.
  
  
  
  Considering Taiwan has been an independent entity for so long, I don't see a reason why Taiwan should not be formally recognized as a country.

  
  
  Yes, but Taiwan is the only one truly similar to China. Of course people are going to see it as practically the same thing. The culture, the language, the last few decades of history + the location and trade. The US maintains a lot of things, someday it's going to come crashing down.
  
  Even if they had 30% of the trade, it's still huge.
  
  Maybe people will see them as independent when they develop their culture and language a bit more than just having a different accent (like many provinces in China), and maybe accomplish something properly.
  They aren't getting enough exposure (the whole Taiwan/China thing a few years back was pretty negative attention for a lot of the world), the change is still too recent, and they're not different enough.
  
  They might be recognized properly in a few decades.
• Intex wrote on 2010-10-22 05:19

  the Taiwanese dialect is spoken in Taiwan

  
  Provinces in mainland China also speak very different dialects, some I can't even understand a bit.
  
  

  Austria, Croatia, and the Czech Republic

  
  Yes but these countries formed their boundaries long ago in a different time.
  They were able to form their own armies, wage war, get taken over, etc.
  Its not like those countries needed to become "official" like Taiwan.
  
  

  Quote from Chillax;190799:

  Considering Taiwan has been an independent entity for so long, I don't see a reason why Taiwan should not be formally recognized as a country.

  
  Again the reason many people don't accept Taiwan as a country is because they are not official and Taiwan is similar to mainland.
  
  None of this Taiwan is/is not a country stuff is going to get anywhere because everyone defines country differently.
  Approval? Economy? Political Power? Enter into alliance?
  We should all be able to agree Taiwan is independent from China because Taiwan identifies that way.
• Chillax wrote on 2010-10-22 16:22

  Yes, but Taiwan is the only one truly similar to China. Of course people are going to see it as practically the same thing.

  
  
  Truly similar? Genghis Khan ruled part of China. The Qing Dynasty was established by Mongols. Mongolian culture is embedded within Chinese culture and vice versa. Does that make Mongolia part of China?
  
  

  Maybe people will see them as independent when they develop their culture and language a bit more than just having a different accent (like many provinces in China)

  
  
  Culture? It seems like Japan and Korea have Buddhism, moon festivals, etc. What makes them that different? They still have remnants of Chinese characters in their languages. There are different kinds of Taiwanese foods and deities that aren't prevalent in China.
  
  Language? Taiwanese.
  
  

  and maybe accomplish something properly.

  
  
  What.
  
  

  the change is still too recent, and they're not different enough.

  
  
  Taiwan has been separate for many, many years. You could say plenty of countries that exist today are not "different enough", and on that basis, say they do not deserve stateship.
  
  

  Even if they had 30% of the trade, it's still huge.

  
  
  The point is that Taiwan will not collapse if China refuses to do trade with it, although it is highly unlikely that China will do that. If Taiwan claims its own independence, the government can take a more active role in customs duties and getting better deals for Taiwanese businesses, should China treat them unfairly.
  
  

  They might be recognized properly in a few decades.

  
  
  Would you be able to say that seriously to a gay person about gay marriage?
  
  

  Provinces in mainland China also speak very different dialects, some I can't even understand a bit.

  
  
  The difference? There are Taiwanese people that want independence.
  
  

  Yes but these countries formed their boundaries long ago in a different time.
  They were able to form their own armies, wage war, get taken over, etc.

  
  
  My ancestors came to Taiwan from China 500 years ago, which is not that much of a time difference from the date of formation of many European countries that exist today. I believe a lot of people from Fujian came over around this time as well. Taiwan has had its own natural boundaries for a while now, and as I said before, it was never ruled by China. Taiwan was able to wage its own wars, but obviously it lost and got taken over by the Portuguese, Dutch, etc.
  
  

  Its not like those countries needed to become "official" like Taiwan.

  
  
  So why did Israel come into being? Do the whims of a conquerer hundreds of years ago take precedence over the current will of many people?
  
  

  None of this Taiwan is/is not a country stuff is going to get anywhere because everyone defines country differently.
  Approval? Economy? Political Power? Enter into alliance?

  
  
  You are either formally recognized as a country by other countries, or you are not. There is no gray region.
  
  

  We should all be able to agree Taiwan is independent from China because Taiwan identifies that way.

  
  
  Apparently the Chinese government doesn't think that way.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-10-22 17:30
  I think there's no point arguing about whether Taiwan is a country or not because other countries refuse to recognize it as one anyway...as frustrating as that may be for people who come from Taiwan. More people speak mandarin than taiwanese in taiwan, so I still think they're chinese. Like if someone asked if I was chinese, I wouldn't say "no, I'm taiwanese". That's just silly. I view Taiwan and China kind of like Canada and the US. Same types of people, same language, same cultures, but just...different countries officially. I mean in the end, they're all the same people anyway.
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-10-22 17:36

  Quote from Ailyene;191085:

  I think there's no point arguing about whether Taiwan is a country or not because other countries refuse to recognize it as one anyway...as frustrating as that may be for people who come from Taiwan. More people speak mandarin than taiwanese in taiwan, so I still think they're chinese. Like if someone asked if I was chinese, I wouldn't say "no, I'm taiwanese". That's just silly. I view Taiwan and China kind of like Canada and the US. Same types of people, same language, same cultures, but just...different countries officially. I mean in the end, they're all the same people anyway.

  
  
  Yeah, that's what I think. I don't think Chillax is getting my point at all.
  
  The states in China are just as different from each other as Taiwan and China are. The differences between China and Korea/Japan are much greater than between China/Taiwan.
  
  When I talked about the trade, I was talking about how nothing much had changed from back when they were a state.
  
  Taiwanese people left China long ago, yes, but it was only a few years ago that they demanded independence on TV and everything.
  
  Before that, they were a part of China.
  
  
  And I don't care if the countries recognize Taiwan as a country. I'm talking about what people think and not the political and technical things.
  
  When it comes down to it, a lot of people (if not most), still think of Taiwan as part of China.