Husband Snaps On Abortion Protesters

• Intex wrote on 2010-10-28 02:25
  I think we should be able to keep this debate civil and stay on topic without getting too "flame war" on each other.
  
  

  Sure, we eat animals. But if I'm gonna defend a fetus' right to live, I should also defend an animal's right to live. Why does it matter that it's a different species? Isn't all life sacred? Why am I just defending a human fetus?

  
  Because it's a human fetus, and honestly that makes it more important to us.
  Should I defend mosquitoes and bacteria infections on the same basis that it's life?
  Sorry the comparison is really extreme but you can't just stick everything under the same umbrella since in reality not all life is equal.
  
  

  The bible doesn't mention abortion specifically, to my knowledge. For the most part, the religious basis is not actually all that religious. Speaking of the intelligent people, not the mindless drones we're all too familiar with, it has to do with life starting at conception. They oppose abortion because with that view of life it amounts to murder.

  
  Yeah that does seem to be the case.
  You always imagine the extreme Christian protester carrying signs and yelling at women but when it comes to other people it depends on their view of life.
  
  When it comes to abortion my view is that anyone should be able to abort their pregnancy.
  I view the fetus as a living thing by itself but it's life is going to depend on the parents.
  If a woman does not want to have a child why should she be forced to keep it?
  The very fact that she wants to abort it shows the child will not be born into a good environment.
  
  It's amazing how far some people defend the life before birth but they do not consider the after effects.
  You're forcing someone to raise a child they wanted to abort, how can they feel the same love for that child?
  What about the teen mom who made a huge mistake one night? Should this be her justified punishment?
  The teen mom has to drop out of school and work low paying jobs rather than wait five years and give both her child and her a brighter future.
  
  Abortion is a horrible ordeal for EVERYONE and no one wants it.
  However in many cases the abortion will give everyone a second chance to have a new life, new relationships, a new child.
  A child isn't something that should be taken lightly, it requires emotional strength, help from people, and massive preparation.
  Someone who does not have all that should not be forced to have a child because of blind judgement in one night.
  
  ^I probably repeated myself too much.
• Juno wrote on 2010-10-28 03:40
  Your arguments are rational, but good luck justifying murder. If you're seeking resolution to this debate, that's your task.
  
  Seriously, as much as I love a good debate, this one always boils down to is it alive and is it ok to kill it. Some people say it's not alive, some say it's alive but ok to be killed and the last bit say it's alive and should not be killed. Some will say it's just a group of cells ignoring the obvious fact that there's something different about this chunk. Some cite the difficulties of not aborting it in an attempt to justify murder, which they admit it is to some extent. The rest insist that it should be respected as being alive as any other human.
  
  The important thing is that we identify and respect one another's views, though anyone who sees it as murder and sits quietly is far worse in my book than the one that aborts and doesn't think twice about it.
• Intex wrote on 2010-10-28 03:58

  Quote from Juno;196938:

  Your arguments are rational, but good luck justifying murder. If you're seeking resolution to this debate, that's your task.
  
  Seriously, as much as I love a good debate, this one always boils down to is it alive and is it ok to kill it. Some people say it's not alive, some say it's alive but ok to be killed and the last bit say it's alive and should not be killed. Some will say it's just a group of cells ignoring the obvious fact that there's something different about this chunk. Some cite the difficulties of not aborting it in an attempt to justify murder, which they admit it is to some extent. The rest insist that it should be respected as being alive as any other human.

  
  Yeah it's impossible to convince those who think abortion is cold murder.
  However there are people who don't feel it's murder and believe abortion is just a method to escape responsibilities or that abortion is lowering the birth rate.
  My argument is more for those people who are less one sided.
  
  

  The important thing is that we identify and respect one another's views, though anyone who sees it as murder and sits quietly is far worse in my book than the one that aborts and doesn't think twice about it.

  
  I really feel like murder is being thrown around way too easily.
  Murder is killing someone with bad intentions or malice.
  And that doesn't mean someone who kills a woman in order to save her soul is not a murderer, since the killing is totally to the detriment of the woman.
  Even when someone is having an abortion because that child might have Huntington's disease that's still "murder"?
  Are prison workers who perform lethal injection also murderers?
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-10-28 04:38
  If it's impossible to convince someone who thinks abortion is murder out of it, they won't understand the views of those who don't think so then. It's like trying to convince a very religious person that their god doesn't exist, or an extreme atheist that god does exist. They just can't accept it. I mean, how you can you accept that it's both murder and not murder at the same time... There are tons of arguments that can apply to both sides (well I'm biased so I think my side is right but JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THIS, I'll say it's equal for both), but in the end, neither side will see the other side's views. =/
  
  I think the point is that this guy and his wife did absolutely nothing wrong anyway. Well I guess they did to those extremists because you know...killing something that's already going to die the moment it's born is totally bad.
• ShadowFox31 wrote on 2010-10-28 06:06
  One thing I dont get, Maybe because I'm not Cristian, but why does being a strong Cristian usually make people bad people? AGAIN, I'm not saying EVERYONE... I live in a strong Christian town and I'm still pretty nieve to TOTAL VIEWS. One of my sister's best friend was a strong Christian and yet she was a very nice person. they should really think if they are following god's way, or their own way.
  
  Instead of yelling at people, why can't they just talk with the abortion clinics? Maybe they can sit around and when someone distressed come around, be the ear that listens to their pain? Why can't they just be a comfortable pat on the back, rather then a yell at their sin? Why can't they understand that troubles don't come from other people, it comes from your own self making the troubles appear?
  
  Before anyone yells, be nice people first. Second, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. Please correct me if I made any errors... ><;;
• MrpewX2 wrote on 2010-10-28 06:17
  I think that abortion is something that shouldn't be debated about, it's none of our business. Anyone who has option on it who hasn't been thought it shouldn't. If you have, then sure give your option. This includes anyone who had a baby, and the men who had to help in the decision. If your saying you have an option on this and haven't had the decision then why? To make yourself seem better in the eye of other people? No it's your not decision. If someone hates you because of it, then f-word them. If someone loves you because of it then fine, but pay no mind to them, because I shouldn't receive rewards for choosing a side because its just not right. Thank you for not repping me.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-10-28 07:03

  Quote from ShadowFox31;197018:

  One thing I dont get, Maybe because I'm not Cristian, but why does being a strong Cristian usually make people bad people? AGAIN, I'm not saying EVERYONE... I live in a strong Christian town and I'm still pretty nieve to TOTAL VIEWS. One of my sister's best friend was a strong Christian and yet she was a very nice person. they should really think if they are following god's way, or their own way.
  
  Instead of yelling at people, why can't they just talk with the abortion clinics? Maybe they can sit around and when someone distressed come around, be the ear that listens to their pain? Why can't they just be a comfortable pat on the back, rather then a yell at their sin? Why can't they understand that troubles don't come from other people, it comes from your own self making the troubles appear?
  
  Before anyone yells, be nice people first. Second, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. Please correct me if I made any errors... ><;;

  
  
  Usually it's not really just strong Christians, but more of anyone who has a really strong opinion about something because if you feel extremely strongly about something, you tend to get more stubborn and narrow-minded about it. I think that's why a lot of extremists act badly. They let their emotions take over rather than be level-headed about it.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2010-10-28 10:25
  I see no harm in destroying something that lacks the ability to reason. Not to mention, the child in that particular case was dead already.
  
  "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" people bore me with their antics.
  

  [Image: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jr8bSblMjio/SNVrF-jFvZI/AAAAAAAAAPU/-77wXJMBx_E/s1600/PBF020-Skub.gif]
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-10-28 14:36

  Quote from Kaeporo;197111:

  I see no harm in destroying something that lacks the ability to reason. Not to mention, the child in that particular case was dead already.
  
  "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" people bore me with their antics.
  

  [Image: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_jr8bSblMjio/SNVrF-jFvZI/AAAAAAAAAPU/-77wXJMBx_E/s1600/PBF020-Skub.gif]

  
  
  Yeah! It lacks the ability to reason.
  
  And for those who bring up the argument that the little thing feels pain... well, somethings are necessary. When you were a kid, vaccine shots were painful, but they were necessary. You know what I mean?
  
  If it does feel some sort of pain or not, well that's unfortunate. But sometimes bringing a baby to this world when you're not ready, isn't advisable.
• psyal wrote on 2010-10-28 15:27
  Well, for the people saying it's murder of a sort: What about all the other "deaths" caused by a woman just not getting pregnant?
• Zid wrote on 2010-10-28 16:27

  Quote from VitaminC;196706:

  I also fail to see how you see it as a wrong time/right(wrong) place issue. Where do you find it right to protest something by picking at people? Legalized bullying is unacceptable in any form and I hope people realize that consequence does come with that.

  
  
  The protesters (the pro-life people of the video) wanted a change. But they did it the unacceptable way as some people in this thread pointed out (Reminds me of that thread about that pastor group protesting near a funeral), near an abortion clinic. Which some people can say it's wrong to do that, while others can say it's okay to do that, since it's within legal distance. The father confronted them because of his situation and frustration from it, which meant the protesters could be doing what they're doing at the wrong time (which, again, some people in this thread pointed out as all the time).
  
  If bullying in the abortion debate is unacceptable, then I wish for some pro-choice people to not harass some pro-life people who are doing nothing but just praying and not protesting in front of an abortion clinic. Either side have people that are being ridiculous with the other side.
  
  

  Quote from Phunkie;196731:

  Honestly, it really doesn't make sense to me.
  
  Sure, we eat animals. But if I'm gonna defend a fetus' right to live, I should also defend an animal's right to live. Why does it matter that it's a different species? Isn't all life sacred? Why am I just defending a human fetus?

  
  
  Many people place their human species above other animals in terms of protection of life. This is evident by customs spanning nearly the entirety of humanity in which there's punishment for homicide, but not for killing of other animals. It's because of familiarity and worth of species. Animals also exhibit this trait, mainly with carnivorous animals. A random lion won't be bothered to save you, as opposed to saving its own species.
  
  "All life is sacred, whether it be age, race, species, or state of conception" ideal is an extreme one, for that matter. Not saying there aren't a few of us who follow this notion.
  
  

  Quote from Phunkie;196731:

  Also, if I'm also condemning the person committing the abortion, I should also condemn someone who kills another in self-defense, because it is obvious that rape is not a good enough reason to commit an abortion. So why is self-defense a good enough reason to kill another person?
  
  I see both examples quite fitting, actually.
  
  Combine both of them, for example.
  
  What if giving birth to a baby threatens your life? You're a month in and you can definitely abort. You would be aborting the baby in self-defense. Why is that so wrong? It's your life you're trying to save.

  
  
  There's a point to be had there. Not all killings, whether it be homicide, abortion, or animal, are of the same motives. In that respect, I also don't think it's fair to lump all of the pro-life people into "They're a group of people who thinks ALL abortions are for the wrong reasons". There are quite a good number of pro-life thinkers (not mindless followers like in that video) who understand that not all abortions are made for the wrong reasons; they just have a different perspective and way of going about how to solve those situations individually. The reason why these aforementioned people are pro-life are for their own reasons other than "because God told me so". It shouldn't be fair to label them as wrong to a pro-choice's beliefs just because they're pro-life.
  
  For example, I understand a person killing another out of self-defense. So I understand a mother whose life is on the line if she decided to give birth. In that case, my morals are beyond any help to these people (I mean both the mother and child). I'm not advocating abortion but I'm not denying a choice, so I leave their fate up to the mother's decision. As much as I hate it, I have to leave the choice up to her in this matter.
  
  In a situation of rape, that would be too long for me to write out cohesively in this post.
  
  

  Quote from Phunkie;196731:

  I just honestly believe that fetuses (under... what is it? 2 months?) aren't special. If you absolutely must abort a baby, because of financial struggles or because of a rape or whatnot, do it.

  
  
  But this is an opinion. A person who believes that conception (Day 1) is special and says because it is special, it shouldn't be aborted as life is more worth it than financial struggles or the traumas of rape, is wrong for thinking of this different opinion? Is it a fact that one can say this person doesn't understand what the mother is going through in terms of financial struggles or rape?
  
  Maybe this person think the mother can go give the child to an orphanage. The argument would be:
  
  

  Quote from Phunkie;196731:

  Don't complicate your life.
  Don't bring a baby to a world of struggle and misery.
  Don't have it if you're just gonna toss it away.
  
  Have a baby when you're ready. If you can abort, do it.

  
  
  

  Quote from Intex;196893:

  If a woman does not want to have a child why should she be forced to keep it?
  The very fact that she wants to abort it shows the child will not be born into a good environment.
  
  It's amazing how far some people defend the life before birth but they do not consider the after effects.
  You're forcing someone to raise a child they wanted to abort, how can they feel the same love for that child?
  What about the teen mom who made a huge mistake one night? Should this be her justified punishment?
  The teen mom has to drop out of school and work low paying jobs rather than wait five years and give both her child and her a brighter future.

  
  
  And such. This is what I'm fairly certain is an ongoing debate fueled by, again, beliefs. Assuming that at least a few pro-life people don't have a lack of reasoning as much as these counterpoints give, a pro-life person would argue:
  
  

  • "Don't complicate your life. / Don't bring a baby to a world of struggle and misery. / Don't have it if you're just gonna toss it away." - There are millions of people who may have worse conditions than an American non-aborted child can have. Yet, they live, and because we let them live, in their own struggles and miseries. I'm not looking at genocide, so I'm wondering if a fetus should die because of its predicted situation. Friends and family of people who are very poor (Homeless, even) and very much below the poverty line, should we consider this quoted sentence for them? If I was very poor, and my sister was homeless and even in a worse condition than me, should I consider ending her struggle and misery?
    
  • "Have a baby when you're ready. If you can abort, do it." - Some pro-life people I know of would rather say "If you absolutely and necessarily need to abort with no other choice now and in the future, then we leave it up to you." I guess that's another question: should abortions be an action of desire, or an action of necessity?
    
  • "If a woman does not want to have a child why should she be forced to keep it? / The very fact that she wants to abort it shows the child will not be born into a good environment." - Not necessarily true. If the woman does not want the child, abortion is just one of the choices (and, if what I read is correct, usually a last-resort option). Also, some abortions are performed by couples who do happen to have a good environment, if not better than some.
    
  • "You're forcing someone to raise a child they wanted to abort, how can they feel the same love for that child?" - This is also not necessarily the case. A mother or couple can grow to the love the child if they canceled the abortion. Or they cannot. It can be either way. There are unwanted pregnancies that do end up with a child being loved and cared for.
    
  • "What about the teen mom who made a huge mistake one night? Should this be her justified punishment? / The teen mom has to drop out of school and work low paying jobs rather than wait five years and give both her child and her a brighter future." - If it's not the case of rape or (extremely?) pressured demand, then obviously, this is a part of her fault. If she went through sexual education (which can start as early as just when puberty starts) and still did this, then it makes her fault have even more weight. Asking if this is a justified punishment doesn't have support if the teen mom-to-be doesn't learn anything, but rather use abortion/birth control as an excuse to fulfill her sexual needs or being submissive to the boyfriend's sexual needs. Should there be no exception for the girl who didn't know anything but learned about it? Should there be no exception for the girl who refuses to learn and rather not take on the responsibility?

  
  
  I want to ask, should abortions be expanded to include an action of desire, or should abortions just be limited as an action of necessity?
• Juno wrote on 2010-10-28 18:14

  Quote from Intex;196948:

  Yeah it's impossible to convince those who think abortion is cold murder.
  However there are people who don't feel it's murder and believe abortion is just a method to escape responsibilities or that abortion is lowering the birth rate.
  My argument is more for those people who are less one sided.
  
  
  I really feel like murder is being thrown around way too easily.
  Murder is killing someone with bad intentions or malice.
  And that doesn't mean someone who kills a woman in order to save her soul is not a murderer, since the killing is totally to the detriment of the woman.
  Even when someone is having an abortion because that child might have Huntington's disease that's still "murder"?
  Are prison workers who perform lethal injection also murderers?

  
  
  I don't think it's fair to say they're one-sided. It's not really one of those things that you can go back and forth on, like in any debate most people will have a point of view.
  
  Is murder a poor word? I was trying to avoid infanticide, honestly. Without mincing speech though, I think we all understand what's being said.
  
  

  Quote from Ailyene;196972:

  If it's impossible to convince someone who thinks abortion is murder out of it, they won't understand the views of those who don't think so then. It's like trying to convince a very religious person that their god doesn't exist, or an extreme atheist that god does exist. They just can't accept it. I mean, how you can you accept that it's both murder and not murder at the same time... There are tons of arguments that can apply to both sides (well I'm biased so I think my side is right but JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THIS, I'll say it's equal for both), but in the end, neither side will see the other side's views. =/

  
  
  Again, it's not that they don't understand. A person can hold to abortion being murder while still being intelligent and open-minded enough to hear an opposing argument. However, few people are down with murder of any type.
  
  To be clear, I'm defining murder as killing the undeserving? I'd give a more thought out definition but I really think we're all on the same page mostly.
  
  

  Quote from ShadowFox31;197018:

  One thing I dont get, Maybe because I'm not Cristian, but why does being a strong Cristian usually make people bad people? AGAIN, I'm not saying EVERYONE... I live in a strong Christian town and I'm still pretty nieve to TOTAL VIEWS. One of my sister's best friend was a strong Christian and yet she was a very nice person. they should really think if they are following god's way, or their own way.
  
  Instead of yelling at people, why can't they just talk with the abortion clinics? Maybe they can sit around and when someone distressed come around, be the ear that listens to their pain? Why can't they just be a comfortable pat on the back, rather then a yell at their sin? Why can't they understand that troubles don't come from other people, it comes from your own self making the troubles appear?
  
  Before anyone yells, be nice people first. Second, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. Please correct me if I made any errors... ><;;

  
  
  Unfortunately, while the majority of christians feel differently, it's only the people that yell who are heard. Also, the media only covers what will make a good story...and peace is boring.
  
  

  Quote from Kaeporo;197111:

  I see no harm in destroying something that lacks the ability to reason. Not to mention, the child in that particular case was dead already.

  
  
  God forbid you ever enter a coma.
  
  

  Quote from psyal;197184:

  Well, for the people saying it's murder of a sort: What about all the other "deaths" caused by a woman just not getting pregnant?

  
  
  Allow me to clear this up for you. Conception is the point where sperm meets egg and is all set to settle down and grow up. Sperm alone, nor eggs alone, qualify. Sperm and eggs that get flushed out don't either. Even if one views those as deaths, they are not willful acts and thus you can't hold anyone responsible for them.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-10-28 20:10
  I think murder is a very strong word and it's rather offensive to say that abortion is murder because then you're calling the mother a murderer. Which is apparently on the same level as homicide. However, I view an unborn baby the same way as what some people said before about the animals VS humans argument - I think what they were saying was that animals are on a lower level than human beings? Well for me, unborn babies are not counted as human beings yet and therefore are on an even lower level than animals. There's not much anyone can say to change my opinion because that's just how I see them. I can't see them as anything worthwhile when they don't even have a brain yet. It's like they're...well, plants.
  
  But then calling abortion murder would be saying that I support murder, which is totally wrong. I can't think of a better word to describe being anti-abortion for now, but murder is definitely not a good way to say it.
• Spartaaaaa wrote on 2010-10-28 21:31

  Quote from psyal;197184:

  Well, for the people saying it's murder of a sort: What about all the other "deaths" caused by a woman just not getting pregnant?

  
  
  Something that never existed in the first place cannot die. You are right to put "deaths" in quotation marks because it is merely a silly straw-man set up by pro abortion people to convince themselves that nobody is being hurt!
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-10-28 21:40
  I think it should be a personal decision and also a medical choice.
  
  Can't keep the baby? Sure. <- OK!
  Wait, you're 4 months in? I won't do it. <- OK!
  
  There should be a limit to how long you wait for an abortion.
  
  Also, abortions are indeed a sad thing. Women feel bad when they get abortions, most of the time. But sometimes they just can't have the baby. It's a necessary action for them sometimes.