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paladin wrote on 2010-12-06 19:54
I smell nerf coming
Otherwise hes pretty balanced
That link about the show cases some of his skills
Hes kinda like a brezker type, or suicde type
Inflict damage and take damage regin hp as you do it
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Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-06 20:00
This is technically the XE version of Karok we're seeing now though.
So who really knows?
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Shirayuki wrote on 2010-12-06 20:02
He seems kinda balanced to me, considering Fiona can take no damage at all and still dish out amazing stun/damage, without any risk of failing like Karok.
(Counter, HS Counter, etc)
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Gotejjeken wrote on 2010-12-06 20:09
The only problem with that line of reasoning is a Fiona has to actively HS or be hurt badly. From the video, Karok can walk into a boss smash and basically have nothing happen, with the added plus of HP regen. I can see why this is, as he is obviously meant to be the giant/tank character...however when they have Fiona and Golem doing essentially the same thing, I cannot see why he is needed other than possibly more variety.
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Shirayuki wrote on 2010-12-06 20:15
Quote from Gotejjeken;238961:
The only problem with that line of reasoning is a Fiona has to actively HS or be hurt badly. From the video, Karok can walk into a boss smash and basically have nothing happen, with the added plus of HP regen. I can see why this is, as he is obviously meant to be the giant/tank character...however when they have Fiona and Golem doing essentially the same thing, I cannot see why he is needed other than possibly more variety.
He had to start an attack for that effect though iirc. I agree that it's sort of imbalanced, but Lann has superarmor on his smashes, but no regen. If the regen is lessened or taken out completely, I'd be completely okay with it.
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Kueh wrote on 2010-12-06 20:15
Quote from Gotejjeken;238912:
How is stun lock cheese? Fiona's entire character is based around stun locking an enemy...so any Fiona player is a 'cheeser' now? Unless you are speaking of spear-locking Tyrant, however I see that more as a flaw of the boss (Red Tyrant doesn't have nearly the issue White does with that) rather than an bad tactic. In fact, most bosses can be taken down with secondaries alone...so if you use secondary weapons are you cheesing now too?
Fiona has high stun. That's different from stun locking. And if you use secondary weapons to stun-lock, like with white tyrant or the werewolves, then yes, it's cheesing.
Fiona's character isn't based around stun-locking. It's based primarily on the ability to block attacks. Her real strong suit isn't her stun rate. It's the fact that when the boss is done with his attack, Lanns have backed up to avoid it, Evies have backed up to avoid it, but Fiona is still there in the boss' face, charging a stigma.
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Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-06 20:44
Quote from Whyrainfalls;238969:
Fiona's character isn't based around stun-locking. It's based primarily on the ability to block attacks. Her real strong suit isn't her stun rate. It's the fact that when the boss is done with his attack, Lanns have backed up to avoid it, Evies have backed up to avoid it, but Fiona is still there in the boss' face, charging a stigma.
I dunno, I'd say Fiona is all about stunning.
Blocking? Evasive roll is just as good to dodge as anyone else's evasion. Blocking is optional.
Counter attack has MASSIVE stun rate. Probably larger than any other normal skill attack in the game. On top of that you're also given Shield Bash, which is purely a stun locking attack. This is of course on top of butterfly/stigma doing heavy stun to begin with (and theres always amaranth which has pretty nasty stun at max rank). Dash smash is just as powerful for knock down for every other character's dash smash, but Fiona gets heavy stander cancel which lets her use it super fast consecutively. Thats good stun too.
If you're partying with a Fiona, you're going to expect her to do the job of stunning the boss.
In a party of 4 Fionas, the boss will be perma stunned.
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Kueh wrote on 2010-12-06 20:49
Evie's stun isn't that far behind Fiona. For scythes anyway. Even end of boat 3 bosses can be perma-stunned by parties of 2 or 3 scythes.
As it stands though, I'd say Fiona's style really exemplifies her guard. Scythes are more about tag damage.
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Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-06 21:11
Quote from Whyrainfalls;239030:
Evie's stun isn't that far behind Fiona. For scythes anyway. Even end of boat 3 bosses can be perma-stunned by parties of 2 or 3 scythes.
As it stands though, I'd say Fiona's style really exemplifies her guard. Scythes are more about tag damage.
But guard is so pointless. Rolling away is literally better unless you intend to counterattack for a stun. So saying her guard is great is really the same as saying she's a stunning character.
Besides. Guarding or using Heavy Stander is actually not the best choice when you can just blink away if you start comparing to Scythe Evies. In that sense Fiona isn't defensive at all. Evie is more "defensive" than she is.
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Gotejjeken wrote on 2010-12-07 01:20
So secondaries should never be used then, as there sole purpose is to stun lock something (or in the case of smaller enemies, kill them, which is basically permanent stun lock). Chain hooks on Gnoll Chief lock him to the ground, which is--using your logic--as cheesy as it gets as he can't defend himself at all. You can play it to where you guard an attack and never use counter, secondaries, or any other stunning method...however that's more of an alternate approach than some 'non-cheese' deal. In fact, to get back on topic...Karok should be renamed Cheese as one of his main assets is locking an enemy in place until he runs out of stamina (or forever if he is in paladin mode).
Also, I main Fiona and rarely ever use guard by itself. Guard merely serves as a way to get a counter-attack off. Even if you count Heavy Stander as a guard, you can still counter from it per the most recent Korean update. In fact, if you get knocked back, you can also counter from that...which leads to a pattern, a pattern which revolves around stunning. You could most likely say Fiona is useless without stun, as she has low DPS, low maneuverability, and mediocre smashes when compared to the other classes.
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singer wrote on 2010-12-07 01:21
Quote from Cucurbita;239054:
But guard is so pointless. Rolling away is literally better unless you intend to counterattack for a stun. So saying her guard is great is really the same as saying she's a stunning character.
Besides. Guarding or using Heavy Stander is actually not the best choice when you can just blink away if you start comparing to Scythe Evies. In that sense Fiona isn't defensive at all. Evie is more "defensive" than she is.
Fiona's play styles depends on the difficulty of the dungeon. At lower levels, i would agree that guarding is pointless and dodging is better because the enemies are weak and slow.
However, in the higher level dungeons, guarding will become much more effective than dodging because higher level bosses tend to use smashes a lot more.
Not only does Fionas save their lives by guarding, but they can also effectively charge up their Sp Skill bar for a powerful shield bash or shield rush by doing so.
Not mention, large shields prevents knockbacks for heavy standers and it accumlate Sp in a much more efficient manner.
For me, I like PG because it activates smashes faster with r9 guard :)
Fiona benefits a lot from guarding
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Gotejjeken wrote on 2010-12-07 03:27
That's the problem though, smashing off a PG isn't nearly as useful as it sounds. The only time I've ever done that is against a normal mob, and on purpose as an alternate way to defeat them. Against any boss, smashing off a PG is never a good idea unless you like being hit...counter is much more effective. I'm not saying that normal blocking will never save you some damage, as it has countless times for me, however Fiona is much more reliant on stuns than guards IMO.
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Kueh wrote on 2010-12-07 03:45
Quote from Cucurbita;239054:
Evie is more "defensive" than she is.
I would say "evasive". And there are times when blink is better, there are times when guard is better. Guard allows Fiona to stay near the enemy and not stop attacking.
Quote from Gotejjeken;239361:
So secondaries should never be used then
I never said that locking is bad. I have fun while locking.
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heretic304 wrote on 2010-12-07 04:50
It should also be noted that Fiona's newer counters don't have nearly as high of a knockdown rate as her older ones. I was watching a video of the new skills, and she was able to do 6 heavy stander counters without knocking down the Gnoll Chieftain, which means sad knockdown rate of sadness D;
Also Karok's timing for his damage negate + HP heal thing is supposedly even stricter than Lann's Slip Dash timing. Which means it may not be as ridiculously OP as you think unless you're able to get the timing perfect D:
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Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-07 16:38
Guarding to fill up to charge Shield Bash?
Once again we return to my main point. Guard is literally almost purely done with the purpose of stunning the enemy in mind.
The whole "later boat" argument doesn't work. Its been used about boat 3, its been used about boat 4, and it never held up its worth. Especially toward spear lanns and evies. Everyone was like "LOL YOU GUYS WAIT TILL BOAT 4 YOU'LL DIE LIKE ALL THE TIME".
"Later boats, bosses will have more stun resist". Guess what, "later on, Fiona can level her skills to have more stun".
"Later boats, enemies will attack more often, making so you need to guard". Rolling away is STILL just as useful as guarding. It still takes the same amount of time. The only difference is that if you guard, you accomplish two things.
1. Counter for stun
2. Fill up SP for shield bash for stun
Verdict: Fiona is a stun character. All her normal smashes have more stun than other characters too.