Quote from tink;25785:
I say it's likely, yes, and even more likely she'll die before the kid becomes an adult.
This argument was so petty. I've made valid points that were backed by knowledge, statistics and even personal experience (the bullying which you are oh-so-ignorant about) yet you continue with your terribly defended arguments, fail to see how much of a smartass you are and insist your "counterpoints" are actually worth something. You growing up with asians has nothing to do with ANYTHING. You happened to be fortunate you didn't grow up with jerks like I did. You're really naive if you think the child is going to find a community that won't say anything negative towards the couple that won't affect the child
So really, this is my last post. I'm a little disappointed in myself I spent my time pointlessly arguing to a stubborn dimwit who refuses to acknowledge valid points, but hey, thanks for the laughs
You assert you are right without specifically supporting your point or attacking mine.
I proclaim victory.
Quote from Sin;25775:
To describe your view as blinkered would be nothing more than obvious. To describe such absence of logical thought; of critical thinking, of any fibre of intellect is no longer a surprise. The internet is full of 'average minds' - You are one of them. I realise that I am talking to nothing more than jam scone.
You assert you are right without specifically supporting your point or attacking mine.
I proclaim victory.
It is also interesting and highly disappointing that you both are full of ad hominems. It seems insulting me takes precedence over addressing my arguments. It's like you've never held a conversation with another human being face to face, and think it's ok to throw insults out left and right.
Quote from MrShandavio;25817:
I love how Syrphid is trying to scientifically prove that incest is moral/isn't immoral. xD Good luck, buddy. The whole concept of moral/immoral is that it's an opinion; a gut feeling. You can't prove or disprove an opinion or feeling. The best you can do is try to educate, but chances are that gut feeling that someone has had their entire life and lives by isn't going to change. :P
The key here is RISK. There's a higher RISK that the mother will die sooner. Higher RISK that the child will be bullied in school/early years. Higher RISK that the child will be exposed to incest (even if it's not blood because of the surrogate). To ignore that the RISK in all of these situations is greatly increased is ignorant.
So far, Syrphid, you've provided no facts yourself. You've just bashed everyone else's ignorance and sit up on your high horse for being "open-minded" and oblivious to the real world. The problem is, we're arguing two different things here! Regular incest (generalized to blood-relation, close ties, adult and child) and this individual case (blood-relation, separated, adult and adult, surrogate baby). The reason we must differentiate here is because my opinion is different for each. Regular incest, the one I just defined in general terms - I'm opposed to. This case - I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I wouldn't stand up and support it with all my heart. I wouldn't say it's morally wrong like regular incest cases, but it's definitely not a smart move or an easy one.
In either case, I don't feel it's right for me to tell someone what they can or can't do. Whether it's sex, drugs, whatever - it's not my place to judge or decide what a person can or can't do. So while I may not support something, or even oppose it, I would never tell that person how to live their life.
To the bold, love is not logical. I admire this couple for not taking the easy way out, sticking to their guns and fighting for their happinesses. You're telling me you would abandon true love because of social pressure? Hey, a lot of people would, but then again, a lot of people are weak.
To the underlined, that's because your "morals" are completely arbitrary and are not defensible in a debate. You don't have ANY morals, you've just internalized social norms. This is dangerous when the social norms are discriminatory and hateful. You NEED to philosophize, otherwise you are a moral-less being.
Risk is not a basis for morality, when you know NOTHING about them and have to assume EVERYTHING. It is possible for the granny to die tomorrow, it is possible for her to die 30 years from now. I see no reason not to attempt to raise a child, unless you can show me that she will die very very soon, something that no one has been able to do. I do not recall reading about terminal cancer. Even then, plenty of children have arisen from single parents, it's not like it's over.
Morality IS NOT JUST a gut feeling. You do demean centuries of philosophy as "Oh I feel like randomly damning this for the heck of it". There are REASONS. Otherwise, you are just randomly hating on people.
For example, murder is bad because it deprives the victim of the rest of their life.
Incest is bad because...<reason that you have yet to produce and defend in a debate>.
I have no facts to provide, MrShandavio, for the simple fact that I don't need any to say, "Hey you make no sense". Because, well, some people here aren't making any sense.
Quote from Juno;25800:
Logic and reality are two entirely different playing fields. Those of you who hail from one will be hard-pressed to understand someone from the other.
Courtesy is a common ground though, and you all should be careful not to abandon it.
The immature tendency to sling insults over reasons tells me that I am arguing with little kids who have no life experience outside of elementary/middle/high school. Esp in college, no one gives a crap who your parents are. It's all you.