Fiona's weapon for soloing

• babohtea wrote on 2010-12-20 21:37

  Quote from Ninmenka;254513:

  I find triple really hard to believe. Is there some video comparison of a hammer Fiona hitting the same boss as a sword Fiona? Where does this claim come from, exactly?
  
  At the risk of me sounding dumb, have you leveled the skills associated with sword Fiona? Amaranth kick one hits everything except bosses and those giant hammer gnolls.
  
  Not important later. True.
  
  Blossom Blow changes/gets extra benefits at rank F and then again at rank 9. I don't see that as moot.

  
  
  There are numbers though. Get a max Stigma hammer and you're looking at
  .4*1.18*1.3 = .6136
  
  Two amaranth kicks:
  2*.18*1.12*1.3 = .5214
  
  Hammers have a little more W.ATK than Swords. Definitely not 3x.
• Ninmenka wrote on 2010-12-20 23:36

  Quote from babohtea;254604:

  There are numbers though. Get a max Stigma hammer and you're looking at
  .4*1.18*1.3 = .6136
  
  Two amaranth kicks:
  2*.18*1.12*1.3 = .5214
  
  Hammers have a little more W.ATK than Swords. Definitely not 3x.

  Where are those last numbers coming from? I see a few of them in the Fiona General guide. But the others? 1.3? 1.12? 1.18? I don't think you're wrong mind you BUT I would like to have access to that information later. Thanks.
  
  I figured, as most people did, that hammers would do more damage. I just thought 3x was far too steep. The numbers you have presented aren't even double.
• babohtea wrote on 2010-12-21 01:10

  Quote from Ninmenka;254719:

  Where are those last numbers coming from? I see a few of them in the Fiona General guide. But the others? 1.3? 1.12? 1.18? I don't think you're wrong mind you BUT I would like to have access to that information later. Thanks.
  
  I figured, as most people did, that hammers would do more damage. I just thought 3x was far too steep. The numbers you have presented aren't even double.

  
  
  Damage bonus from skill and smash mastery.
  
  
  Question: Is the general consensus that hammers do more DPS in a party?
• Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-21 01:13
  Hammer damage initially sits around double of sword.
  With combat mastery and smash mastery increasing damage by % rates, and hammer base damage being much higher than sword, the damage output about triples.
  
  Somewhat balances out since you can get more sword hits in.
  
  But its definitely a lot easier on trash mobs and weaker bosses. And I haven't had any problems soloing any other bosses so far, with exception to Rhagodessa, only because theres two of them and its ridiculous to want to solo it.
• Masterdo wrote on 2010-12-21 02:00

  Quote from Cucurbita;254441:

  
  
  For the record, there is a hammer solo video to every sword solo video on most bosses on the KR forums, and they're around the same finish times.

  
  
  If it takes the same time, then it means that the slower damage output of Swords doesn't slow the boss kill time that much in the end. And since there is a definit benefit in terms of reaction time for defense, then sword would be a better choice in the end, no?
  
  Same kill time, or no significant difference, but a significant difference in ability to cancel animation / have less windups for the smash and ability to go into HS faster. "afkalmighty" on vindictusHQ is a pretty solid player on the korean server, and he mentions that hammers are clearly harder to use correctly on later boats.
  
  In the current content available, both options seem valid, and pretty equivalent...
• Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-21 02:10

  Quote from Masterdo;254900:

  If it takes the same time, then it means that the slower damage output of Swords doesn't slow the boss kill time that much in the end. And since there is a definit benefit in terms of reaction time for defense, then sword would be a better choice in the end, no?
  
  Same kill time, or no significant difference, but a significant difference in ability to cancel animation / have less windups for the smash and ability to go into HS faster. "afkalmighty" on vindictusHQ is a pretty solid player on the korean server, and he mentions that hammers are clearly harder to use correctly on later boats.
  
  In the current content available, both options seem valid, and pretty equivalent...

  
  
  Clear time based on soloing raid bosses.
  
  Same kill time BECAUSE there is a significant difference in ability to cancel animation. Duh. I mean if that wasn't the problem obviously hammers would finish the boss much faster.
  
  So the two "balance out" perfectly.
  
  "Later Boat" argument is moot. Same argument has been used since boat 2, and I soloed my way through boat 3 and 4 as a Hammer Fiona not once looking back at swords.
  
  And I know EXACTLY whats coming in every boat from now. I'm not worried.
  
  Sad to say, having maxed both combat mastery and smash mastery, my hammer's normal hits do almost as much damage as my sword's blossoms. I don't even need to worry about windups for smash. I just hate using swords and if the boss is proving troublesome I just have to take my time.
• babohtea wrote on 2010-12-21 02:36

  Quote from Cucurbita;254917:

  Clear time based on soloing raid bosses.
  
  Same kill time BECAUSE there is a significant difference in ability to cancel animation. Duh. I mean if that wasn't the problem obviously hammers would finish the boss much faster.
  
  So the two "balance out" perfectly.
  
  "Later Boat" argument is moot. Same argument has been used since boat 2, and I soloed my way through boat 3 and 4 as a Hammer Fiona not once looking back at swords.
  
  And I know EXACTLY whats coming in every boat from now. I'm not worried.
  
  Sad to say, having maxed both combat mastery and smash mastery, my hammer's normal hits do almost as much damage as my sword's blossoms. I don't even need to worry about windups for smash. I just hate using swords and if the boss is proving troublesome I just have to take my time.

  
  
  I mean, I know you like hammers a lot but maybe you could tone it down a bit. A lot of the time you seem scornful of sword Fionas or other players.
  
  Anyhow, the later boats argument is not moot in any way. The upcoming content will be very different from previous content; it's ALWAYS like that; you're assumption is extremely illogical.
  
  

  Quote from Cucurbita;254853:

  Hammer damage initially sits around double of sword.
  With combat mastery and smash mastery increasing damage by % rates, and hammer base damage being much higher than sword, the damage output about triples.
  
  Somewhat balances out since you can get more sword hits in.
  
  But its definitely a lot easier on trash mobs and weaker bosses. And I haven't had any problems soloing any other bosses so far, with exception to Rhagodessa, only because theres two of them and its ridiculous to want to solo it.

  
  
  And PLEASE give me numbers on this. I can't see how it could POSSIBLY triple.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2010-12-21 02:39

  Quote from babohtea;254958:

  I mean, I know you like hammers a lot but maybe sometimes you sound almost scornful of sword users...
  
  Anyhow, the later boats argument is not moot in any way. The upcoming content will be very different from previous content; it's ALWAYS like that; you're assumption is extremely illogical.

  
  
  Only because sword users are WAY TOO scornful of hammer users.
  
  And don't worry about "later content". I watched a playthrough video of every dungeon in boat 5, 6, and 7, and I'm not worried ONE BIT.
  
  Besides, I was told boat 3 was going to be rape, and it wasn't. I was told boat 4 was going to be rape, and it wasn't. I'm told boat 5 is going to be rape, but its not. Boat 6 isn't either. And guess what? Boat 7 is pretty damn easy too.
  
  As far as difficulty in Vindictus goes, its laughably easy. And thats me soloing most dungeons in hard macha. Illogical? No.
  
  I'm a rather very fast paced game player. SC2, Touhou, Blazblue, whatever. Vindictus feels like life is revolving slow motion to me. I actually wish devCAT made this game more challenging.
• Ninmenka wrote on 2010-12-21 03:33

  Quote from Cucurbita;254853:

  Hammer damage initially sits around double of sword.
  With combat mastery and smash mastery increasing damage by % rates, and hammer base damage being much higher than sword, the damage output about triples.

  This is the second time you've said triples. Please provide some evidence that is actually triples. "I said so" is not evidence.
  
  

  Quote from Cucurbita;254917:

  Sad to say, having maxed both combat mastery and smash mastery, my hammer's normal hits do almost as much damage as my sword's blossoms. I don't even need to worry about windups for smash. I just hate using swords and if the boss is proving troublesome I just have to take my time.

  I don't buy this. Statistically that doesn't sound possible.
  
  

  Quote from Cucurbita;254965:

  
  And don't worry about "later content". I watched a playthrough video of every dungeon in boat 5, 6, and 7, and I'm not worried ONE BIT.

  Playthroughs on the internet do not show how difficult the game is. It's still not "very hard" but those are often people who have practiced the runs countless times, are often levels ahead of the actual dungeon, and those players have different reaction times than you do. What I mean by this is, a level 60 running a boat 5 battle does not show how difficult a boat 5 battle actually is. It only shows how well a level 60 can handle content from two boats ago. NOT how WE will do when we first arrive at these dungeons.
  
  Finally, you keep saying things are moot. Everything that you've said is moot is not moot.
• Masterdo wrote on 2010-12-21 03:53
  I still think they balance out in terms of efficiency, just not in terms of gameplay and difficulty level.
  
  The only moot point I would see is the hammer normal hit vs sword smash argument. Since both weapons usually hit only air with those hits (in most later content video at least), only the smash should really be compared. And doing so on the DB site shows that one butterfly swing still looks a lot like the damage of amaranth, and take roughly the same time to execute.
  
  Then the difference is still there, but in a boss' short stun time on boat 7, the amount of health taken away is quite the same on most videos.
  As Cucurbita already pointed, the finish time are sensibly the same. So of course on any given time frame (like a boss' stun time) damage is going to be similar, no matter the individual damage of a particular smash.
  
  In the end, I think that sword takes more button mashing to play efficiently, cancel everything, know exactly what you can land on which boss, etc.
  
  Hammers don't need to cancel, but the difficulty is much more on position and knowing what you can land is even more important, even when the boss is down. If you play flawlessly, with either weapons, of course both are nice. If you are not flawless though, I think sword gives more chances to hit and survive.
  
  To each his own :p Weapon and opinion.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-12-21 10:51

  Quote from Masterdo;255084:

  I still think they balance out in terms of efficiency, just not in terms of gameplay and difficulty level.
  
  The only moot point I would see is the hammer normal hit vs sword smash argument. Since both weapons usually hit only air with those hits (in most later content video at least), only the smash should really be compared. And doing so on the DB site shows that one butterfly swing still looks a lot like the damage of amaranth, and take roughly the same time to execute.
  
  Then the difference is still there, but in a boss' short stun time on boat 7, the amount of health taken away is quite the same on most videos.
  As Cucurbita already pointed, the finish time are sensibly the same. So of course on any given time frame (like a boss' stun time) damage is going to be similar, no matter the individual damage of a particular smash.
  
  In the end, I think that sword takes more button mashing to play efficiently, cancel everything, know exactly what you can land on which boss, etc.
  
  Hammers don't need to cancel, but the difficulty is much more on position and knowing what you can land is even more important, even when the boss is down. If you play flawlessly, with either weapons, of course both are nice. If you are not flawless though, I think sword gives more chances to hit and survive.
  
  To each his own :p Weapon and opinion.

  
  
  To bring back my dancing reference:
  
  Sword, you can dance away with the boss, but if you misstep, you have a moment to catch your footing.
  
  Hammer, you and your partner dance perfectly, seamlessly, and nothing goes wrong.
  
  I really feel like posting a Fleeing Gnoll King video. It's so much fun with him, especially when it feels like I'm dancing.
• heretic304 wrote on 2010-12-22 09:10

  Quote from Cucurbita;254917:

  Clear time based on soloing raid bosses.
  
  Same kill time BECAUSE there is a significant difference in ability to cancel animation. Duh. I mean if that wasn't the problem obviously hammers would finish the boss much faster.
  
  So the two "balance out" perfectly.
  
  "Later Boat" argument is moot. Same argument has been used since boat 2, and I soloed my way through boat 3 and 4 as a Hammer Fiona not once looking back at swords.
  
  And I know EXACTLY whats coming in every boat from now. I'm not worried.
  
  Sad to say, having maxed both combat mastery and smash mastery, my hammer's normal hits do almost as much damage as my sword's blossoms. I don't even need to worry about windups for smash. I just hate using swords and if the boss is proving troublesome I just have to take my time.

  
  
  Using Bakuryu's Guide as a reference:
  
  I decided to use my current character's equipment as a template for your little scenario:
  
  Assumption: Monster Def = 0, Extra Damage = 0, Balance = 100% (even though Capricorn is 60 and Ainle Sword is 80), Weapon's +Critical = 0 (Even though Capricorn is 21 and Ainle Sword is 30) [I've yet to figure out how exactly the +Critical on weapons affects actual critical rate, so it's best if we make believe it's 0 >_>]
  
  Shared Equipment: +5 Laghodessa Slayer Set, +5 Eagle Heart, Rampage Earring, Old Cat's Eye Ring x2
  Variable Equipment and important character stats: +5 Ainle Sword (6430 ATT & 703 WIL) vs. +5 Capricorn (7074 ATT & 690 WIL)
  
  Attacks being tested: Hammer hit #4 (since it's the strongest) vs. Blossom Blow Hit 1, 2, 3.
  
  Cucurbita's Scenario: r7 Combat Mastery, r7 Smash Mastery, r7 Critical Hit(assumption), and rF Blossom Blow (assumption)
  
  Hammer Attack 4th (Non-Critical):
  (7074 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .44) = 551.16288
  
  Hammer Attack 4th (Critical):
  ((7074 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .44)) * (1 + .44 + 690 * .03 / 200) = 850.71990528
  
  Blossom Blow 1st (Non-Critical):
  (6340 + 900) * 0.092 * (1 + .27 + 0) = 856.4372
  
  Blossom Blow 1st (Critical):
  ((6340 + 900) * 0.092 * (1 + .27 + 0)) * (1 + .44 + 703 * .03 / 200) = 1323.58087074
  
  Blossom Blow 2nd (Non-Critical):
  (6340 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .27 + 0) = 446.8368
  
  Blossom Blow 2nd (Critical):
  ((6340 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .27 + 0)) * (1 + .44 + 703 * .03 / 200) = 690.56393256
  
  In your case Hammer's 4th attack completely defeats Blossom Blow 2nd, but doesn't hold a candle to Blossom Blow 1st. A hammer's 4th critical can barely match a non-crit Blossom Blow 1st. But this is a slightly flawed argument since you're trying to compare a Hammiona's Hammer against her, most likely, unranked sword skills.
  
  A more plausible comparison can be done using my fully Hybrid Fiona's ranks:
  r7 Combat Mastery, r7 Smash mastery, r7 Critical Hit, and r7 Blossom Blow.
  
  Hammer Attack 4th (Non-Critical):
  (7074 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .44) = 551.16288
  
  Hammer Attack 4th (Critical):
  ((7074 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .44)) * (1 + .44 + 690 * .03 / 200) = 850.71990528
  
  Blossom Blow 1st (Non-Critical):
  (6340 + 900) * 0.092 * (1 + .27 + .28) = 1045.258
  
  Blossom Blow 1st (Critical):
  ((6340 + 900) * 0.092 * (1 + .27 + .28)) * (1 + .44 + 703 * .03 / 200) = 1615.3939761
  
  Blossom Blow 2nd (Non-Critical):
  (6340 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .27 + .28) = 545.352
  
  Blossom Blow 2nd (Critical):
  ((6340 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .27 + .28)) * (1 + .44 + 703 * .03 / 200) = 842.8142484
  
  Blossom Blow 3rd (Non-Critical):
  (6340 + 900) * 0.056 * (1 + .27 + .28) = 636.244
  
  Blossom Blow 3rd (Critical):
  ((6340 + 900) * 0.056 * (1 + .27 + .28)) * (1 + .44 + 703 * .03 / 200) = 983.2832898
  
  From these results, we can see that Hammer's 4th hit is barely better than Blossom's 2nd hit. It lags behind Blossom Blow's 3rd hit, and is nowhere near Blossom's 1st hit.
  
  Then you have to take into consideration the speed of attacks. I think in the time it takes to get to the 4th hammer attack, you should be able to get at least the 2nd blossom blow in:
  
  Hammer Attack 1st + 2nd + 3rd + 4th =
  (7074 + 900) * 0.020 * (1 + .44) * = 229.6512
  (7074 + 900) * 0.028 * (1 + .44) * = 321.51168
  (7074 + 900) * 0.036 * (1 + .44) * = 413.37216
  (7074 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .44) * = 551.16288
  = 1515.69792
  
  Hammer Attack All Crit 1st + 2nd + 3rd + 4th =
  ((7074 + 900) * 0.020 * (1 + .44)) * (1 + .44 + 690 * .03 / 200) = 354.34666272
  ((7074 + 900) * 0.028 * (1 + .44)) * (1 + .44 + 690 * .03 / 200) = 496.25327808
  ((7074 + 900) * 0.036 * (1 + .44)) * (1 + .44 + 690 * .03 / 200) = 638.03992896
  ((7074 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .44)) * (1 + .44 + 690 * .03 / 200) = 850.71990528
  = 2339.35977504
  
  Hammer mixed Crits:
  1&2 = 1815.1349808
  1&3 = 1865.06115168
  2&3 = 1915.10728704
  1&4 = 1939.950408
  2&4 = 1983.99654336
  1&2&3 = 2039.80274976
  3&4 = 2039.92271424
  1&2&4 = 2114.69200608
  1&3&4 = 2164.61817696
  2&3&4 = 2214.66431232
  
  
  Sword Attack 1st + 2nd + Blossom Blow 1st + 2nd =
  (6340 + 900) * 0.016 * (1 + .44) = 168.8832
  (6340 + 900) * 0.016 * (1 + .44) = 168.8832
  (6340 + 900) * 0.092 * (1 + .27 + .28) = 1045.258
  (6340 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .27 + .28) = 545.352
  = 1928.3764
  
  Sword Attack 1st + 2nd + Blossom Blow Crit 1st + Crit 2nd =
  (6340 + 900) * 0.016 * (1 + .44) = 168.8832
  (6340 + 900) * 0.016 * (1 + .44) = 168.8832
  ((6340 + 900) * 0.092 * (1 + .27 + .28)) * (1 + .44 + 703 * .03 / 200) = 1615.3939761
  ((6340 + 900) * 0.048 * (1 + .27 + .28)) * (1 + .44 + 703 * .03 / 200) = 842.8142484
  = 2795.9746245
  
  Blossom Single Crits:
  
  crit 2 = 2225.8386484
  crit 1 = 2498.5123761
  
  So in a hybrid character's case (or a Sword Spec Fiona vs a Hammer Spec Fiona) 4 Normal Hammer Hits cannot overtake blossom blow if no attacks are critical. The only scenario where 4 normal hammer hits can outshine a 2 hit blossom is if 2 hits crit, and one of them is the 4th hit, or 3 or more hits crit. Of the combinations of critical Blossom hits, the only one that can be matched is if only the 2nd blow crits, in which case the Hammer crit 2&3&4 almost match it, and hammer all crit beats it.
• TA wrote on 2010-12-22 10:08
  It's easier to hs/cancel and counter with a sword.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-12-22 10:31

  Quote from Tasha;257376:

  It's easier to hs/cancel and counter with a sword.

  
  
  Really an understatement.
  
  I don't even think you could HSC any Hammer smash, save for the sprint.
• Papa wrote on 2010-12-22 12:37
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3lG2CJqlmg
  
  I can assure you I will never be able to match my Hammer time on the spider using a Sword.
  
  Thats after carefully studying what you can do in what amount of time.