Using transformations without AP?

• Papa wrote on 2010-12-24 04:19
  Have no choice if you want to rank up Trans.
  
  It needs to be used in order to gain trans exp. :l
  
  Sorry if this was mentioned in pages 1-2. Didnt check.
• babohtea wrote on 2010-12-24 04:36

  Quote from silversun;260362:

  It builds up, for one.
  For two, pretty much every mission is at a low multiple of 10. You're sacrificing at least 1/5 of the reward, assuming higher missions start at 50.
  
  The thing is these bosses will be spammed over. And over. And over again. When do you decide that you're going to use trans, except out of fun, or boredom, or whatever?
  
  I guess the point I'm trying to make is, boredomshowingofffunwhatever isn't really a good reason to burn what could be useful.
  
  If anything, 300-500 ap is just more of a reason why you need all that ap.
  
  Actually, I think it's the fact you guys are more hardcore than I am that's the reason why I'm less likely to use trans- as a more casual gamer I get less AP that needs to be saved, while you guys have everything maxed and can burn AP. :P

  
  
  Soloing certain future bosses becomes possible only with trans. Some bosses are so annoying/hard that you would use trans to clear them.
• silversun wrote on 2010-12-24 04:42
  Soloing is really just for the bragging rights. Well, I suppose exp is slightly higher but that's not very important...
  
  My point is, trans as it stands does not in any way improve your character for the long term, while AP does.
• babohtea wrote on 2010-12-24 04:56

  Quote from silversun;260410:

  Soloing is really just for the bragging rights. Well, I suppose exp is slightly higher but that's not very important...
  
  My point is, trans as it stands does not in any way improve your character for the long term, while AP does.

  
  
  You may be right, but think of it like this:
  Unless you carefully follow the Token guide and use up EVERY SINGLE token all the time, this AP drain is negligible.
  If you're that hardcore, then you're right, it may be better for your character just to skip it completely.
  
  However, you might as well as think of it leveling up a skill... differently? Using it costs AP, using it levels it up. Therefore, indirectly, AP->Leveling up, just like any skill.
  
  For anyone else who isn't hardcore/use up all 50 tokens 3 times a week, you can pretty much ignore the AP drain for the fun that it gives.
• Kueh wrote on 2010-12-24 04:56

  Quote from Phoenix~Lament;260317:

  Why would you sacrifice your dailies for a couple of temporary transformations when you can permanently work towards skills?

  
  
  As we've said, you don't need to use daily AP. Just run a simple dungeon before doing the one you're gonna use the trans in and there you go.
  
  

  Quote from Phoenix~Lament;260317:

  since at least I get some kind of long-lasting benefit to my AP investment.

  
  

  Quote from silversun;260410:

  My point is, trans as it stands does not in any way improve your character for the long term, while AP does.

  
  
  I don't think you guys get that, like Mabinogi, there are ranks in Trans. If you want to increase your ranks, you need to spend AP in the Skill.
• Singleuseonly wrote on 2010-12-24 05:09

  Quote from Papa;260377:

  Have no choice if you want to rank up Trans.
  
  It needs to be used in order to gain trans exp. :l
  
  Sorry if this was mentioned in pages 1-2. Didnt check.

  
  
  Yes it was xD
• silversun wrote on 2010-12-24 05:18
  @babohtea: Again, I actually think it's the other way around. Hardcore players have everything ranked and don't have anything else to do with their AP, a casual player like me usually doesn't get nearly much AP and thus needs to spends it on skills.
  
  @Whyrainfalls: I would prefer to rank a skill that can be used constantly to a skill used at most every 2 hours...
  
  
  Sorry if I'm being annoying, I tend to argue a lot...
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-12-24 05:42

  Quote from silversun;260453:

  @babohtea: Again, I actually think it's the other way around. Hardcore players have everything ranked and don't have anything else to do with their AP, a casual player like me usually doesn't get nearly much AP and thus needs to spends it on skills.
  
  @Whyrainfalls: I would prefer to rank a skill that can be used constantly to a skill used at most every 2 hours...
  
  
  Sorry if I'm being annoying, I tend to argue a lot...

  
  
  I'm a casual player and 10AP doesn't matter ._.
  
  A five minute run of something in Perilous ruins would give me that much.
• Fracture wrote on 2010-12-24 06:52

  Quote from silversun;260240:

  My question is, why would anyone want to use trans, except for the fun of it? People at the cap are likely running stuff for the ap. Not sure how much ap later boats give but for the lagh, you're killing half the reward.
  
  This is kinda aimed at Fracture's post, since I can't really think of a time when you would need trans...

  
  
  I know what I'd use it for. If something has a boss that is a total pain to solo, I take my spears, trans, berserk, fury, and spin it to death. Infinite SP + Extra range + extra damage = <3
  Other than that, dunno.
• Phoenix~Lament wrote on 2010-12-24 07:02

  Quote from babohtea;260401:

  Soloing certain future bosses becomes possible only with trans. Some bosses are so annoying/hard that you would use trans to clear them.

  
  
  While I'm sure with high enough skill you can get past battles like these without transformation, and that's what I'm going to try to do, this is probably the best argument I've seen so far. However, it's not necessary to solo anything and if absolutely forced to there are ways to work around that. I personally am one of the people who enjoy the challenge in soloing everything but it really doesn't make a difference other than personal ego. And people like us (I'm sure Papa is one of us) would try to solo without trans just like people try to solo on Hard Macha.
  
  Edit: Fracture's post above me pretty much furthers my point. You don't NEED trans to solo something like that if you're skilled enough.
  
  If you're soloing for anything other than the challenge there's little reason to not party in order to complete battles with more speed and ease. The only reason I can think of would be EXP, but really, I'm sure most of us are at the level cap already (which is why I would love using transformation if it took exp) and are probably already a couple of levels over what the next chapter expects us to be at (like how Ep4 starts at level 32 and max level was 38 last chapter).
  
  Viewing the 10 AP cost as an extension to the AP ranking requirement for the Transformation skills makes it more bearable but once you cap that skill, the same problem arises once again - you're blowing AP into something temporary rather than permanent. Again, it would only be worth it if you've capped every other useful skill.
  
  I suppose each person will be different. babohtea for example can "ignore the AP drain in favor of the fun it gives" but that would bother me to no end.
  
  Whyrainfalls, there's no distinction between "Daily AP" and "Regular AP". It's all AP to the me and to the game. You could "run a simple dungeon" before you plan to use trans, or you could run that simple dungeon and rank something else up. I see a lot of you guys dividing AP into different sections, agreeing with me and silversun that it's not wise to waste your regular pool of AP, but saying it's okay to waste AP from dailies or AP from "a few quick runs". Does that make sense to you guys?
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-12-24 07:14
  ^Well, AP isn't hard to come by to begin with. It's like having 100k and spending 1k.
  
  Even though you could save that 1k to buy a 150k item, it's easier to just have fun with it.
• whocares8128 wrote on 2010-12-24 07:22
  ^ This. Also, consider that every 2 hours (the downtime between uses), you're already earning at least 2 more AP, just from meditation. That's 1/5 of the cost right there.
  
  Still, what people rank is ultimately up to them. I would recommend your basic skills get ranked first, but if you only do one dungeon run a day (read: are super casual), who cares about the 2 hour downtime? Honestly, I'll probably end up using it a lot more than the skills i've put into both of my weapons, as I can't possibly use both at the same time.
• Phoenix~Lament wrote on 2010-12-24 07:41
  Comparing AP to money?
  
  What is this i don't even...
  
  But yes, ultimately, how people choose to use their AP is up to them. Trans will definitely be fun.
• Kueh wrote on 2010-12-24 07:43

  Quote from Phoenix~Lament;260615:

  I see a lot of you guys dividing AP into different sections, agreeing with me and silversun that it's not wise to waste your regular pool of AP, but saying it's okay to waste AP from dailies or AP from "a few quick runs". Does that make sense to you guys?

  
  
  It doesn't, because the AP isn't going to be wasted.
  
  Last triple double event, I was on my last run, with just minutes to go before the event was to end. We ended up finishing just seconds too late. If I or any one other person in the party then had used a trans then, we would have made it.
  
  That's a pretty extreme case, but it gets the point across very well that sometimes you just need a boost. The issue becomes when is the boost you need worth it. If you're gonna draw the line at "Hardly Ever" that's fine. It's your character to make however you want. No one's saying you have to rank or use trans. But at the same time, there isn't one person in this thread who is saying to use trans frivolously.
  
  It wouldn't only be useful if you already have every other skill capped. It would be useful no matter what, assuming you don't get yourself killed right after transforming. Honestly, by the time you're even allowed to be using transformations, you should have at least 10k AP, with which, most of your crucial skills should be maxed, if not just need finishing up.
  
  At that point it's just raising secondary, non-crucial skills you need to worry about, one of which is transformation.
  
  In my case, I would probably never use it while soloing, because I'd want other people to see how sexy I look covered in ebony living armor. But sometimes, there are dungeons that I want to just hurry up and finish the hell off.
  
  You'll be wanting that boost in missions like Blood Lord and Chiulrin.
• TA wrote on 2010-12-24 08:04

  Quote from Kazuni;260481:

  I'm a casual player and 10AP doesn't matter ._.
  
  A five minute run of something in Perilous ruins would give me that much.

  
  
  All of those battles should be 0 by now.
  
  I don't really like it costing AP personally. I mean, what if you had to spend 5 AP every time you wanted to use your SP skill? It's just silly...