Is Alchemy better at PvE than Giant Melee?

• Zack wrote on 2011-01-03 06:16

  Quote from Wrath;274082:

  I personally think the potential for giant alchemy is greater than melee, but I've never been a melee fan...

  
  
  Enchants do a lot. If you don't have +damage enchants alchemy can easily over power melee.
• Jovo wrote on 2011-01-03 06:34
  I don't know how many times I'll need to state this, by in g13, Earthquake cylinder + clay mastery will outcompete giants in melee.
  
  You need only 500~ AP to achieve a 777 max damage snow golem:
  r1 Alchemy Mastery
  r1 Clay Mastery
  r1 Summoning Golem
  
  Golems have more defense, PD, wm radius, and crit that giants will. And if you even argue the whole snow golems are hard to prep or cost a lot, let's think about what giants will have to do.
  
  Full Str+ bonuses from skills:
  -Combat Tab maxed
  -Rank 1 Blaze
  -Rank 1 Fireball
  -Rank 1 Carpentry
  -Rank 1 Fishing
  Fully equipped with excellent equipment (could cost well over 20 million to enchant).
  
  The following was my personal experience:
  My personal set was (G10)
  Union Burst Knight Dustin Helm
  Dual Wield Shadow Hunter Spike Warhammers (1-89 max damage base. 3x% crit)
  Ego: Iron Mace (186 max damage)
  Corundum Earthquake Accesories x 2
  Metal Needle Burst Knight Spaika Boots
  Metal Needle Peaceful Spaika Gauntlets
  Habit Warrior Selina Sexy Bare Look
  
  This was the best equips at the time. Carpentry wasn't out. My ego was 186 max. (I have screen shot proof if necessary)
  My max damage capped at 520 WITH ego. This set costed tons to enchant. And even with carpentry bonuses, I'd be more around 550. This isn't even CLOSE to a measly 500 AP and barely any effort 3k total level giant.
  
  My giant had 280 base dex at level 1 too.
  
  Just some things to consider. I really hope that lances bring giants back out of the dark. g13 is a kick in every giant's face.
  
  Another note: 20 mil = 1000 snow golems assuming each snow golem is 20k each. Pretty sure 1000 is enough to last for a long time.
  
  TL;DR version: Golems have more defense, PD, wm radius, crit, and damage.
• abc33kr wrote on 2011-01-03 06:44
  Do acknowledge that with dual wield, you only need half the max to achieve what golems do.
  
  777/2=388.5max
  
  in g13, a giant can easily achieve more than 400max.
  
  In terms of firepower, giants will win over golems. So giants will be better than golems in boss fights.
  
  However, golems will be better fighters in dungeons/rath/missions with enclosed area. That is obviously because of golem's huge ass wm range. Plus, golems don't get aggroed as much as players.
• Jovo wrote on 2011-01-03 06:46

  Quote from abc33kr;274193:

  Do acknowledge that with dual wield, you only need half the max to achieve what golems do.
  
  777/2=388.5max
  
  in g13, a giant can easily achieve more than 400max.
  
  In terms of firepower, giants will win over golems. So giants will be better than golems in boss fights.
  
  However, golems will be better fighters in dungeons/rath/missions with enclosed area. That is obviously because of golem's huge ass wm range. Plus, golems don't get aggroed as much as players.

  
  The divided by half thing isn't necessarily correct. Smash and windmill are calculated through Right hand + Left hand + barehand damage. What you see on the character screen is the stats if you choose to whack an enemy separately.
• radionoise wrote on 2011-01-03 06:55

  Quote from Jovo;274198:

  The divided by half thing isn't necessarily correct. Smash and windmill are calculated through Right hand + Left hand + barehand damage. What you see on the character screen is the stats if you choose to whack an enemy separately.

  
  
  What you see on the stats screen would most likely be an average of both weapons added, not what each weapon would hit... but you are correct for how smash and windmill are calculated.
  
  Also, if you are right about having ~550+ max damage with carpentry... if we take into account the dual wield formula as well as newer enchants and a maxed ego, you would be hitting much higher than a maxed g12 golem if you kept playing that character.... as well as have added versatility and more engaging gameplay. It does take far more work, though, I'm not denying that.
  
  Not to mention, even if Golems do get a gigantic boost in g13... melee and range also get that same boost, and with other less practical buffs added in it would add up to very significant damage. The reason golems are overpowered is the gigantic size, really, an endgame character should and will be able to out-damage them.
• Offspring wrote on 2011-01-03 06:57
  I'll be up front. I hate alchemy. I grinded my teeth through g9-g12. Despite hating alchemy, I realize that it's easier to obtain higher damage and enchants. Heck they even have their own "special" category where they can bend the rules and gain exponential EXP off of those less experienced and having trouble with generation quests.
  
  I'm not saying that alchemist are bad, just the idea of crushing my entire character's build in such a short period is heart breaking. Honestly, I see alchemy as what gunpowder did to knights in armor. Stuffing spheres into tubes, sound familiar? Actually, now that I think about it alchemy really is like gun powder because it allows someone less experienced to defeat someone who's trained their whole life in the ways of the sword. Remember the Ending of last Samurai?
  
  If you want to soil your race with alchemy then go ahead. I've always admired giants because of their abilities and as creatures. Flaws an all. Giant alchemist are dead to me.
  :smoke:
• Jovo wrote on 2011-01-03 07:01

  Quote from radionoise;274215:

  What you see on the stats screen would most likely be an average of both weapons added, not what each weapon would hit... but you are correct for how smash and windmill are calculated.
  
  Also, if you are right about having ~550+ max damage with carpentry... if we take into account the dual wield formula as well as newer enchants and a maxed ego, you would be hitting much higher than a maxed g12 golem if you kept playing that character.... as well as have added versatility and more engaging gameplay. It does take far more work, though, I'm not denying that.
  
  Not to mention, even if Golems do get a gigantic boost in g13... melee and range also get that same boost, and with other less practical buffs added in it would add up to very significant damage. The reason golems are overpowered is the gigantic size, really, an endgame character should and will be able to out-damage them.

  
  
  What you say may be true but you are talking about an endgame giant. I'm just a little discerned about the accessibility of a golem that is able to do so well compared to someone that has invested so much time. Sure, giants are able to do a bit more damage, but for someone like an elf to access melee on a scale of this power is just a little saddening.
  
  The costs of getting everything to it's absolute best versus a golem, which is far easier to max...it just seems pointless to try to reach a goal at the end of a long dark tunnel when a faster almost as good alternative takes 3 steps in comparison.
  
  EDIT: Despite giants possibly outdamaging golems, golems are more durable, have higher crit, and keeps the user almost completely out of harms way. You've probably realized this but I feel that golems are something that should be nerfed (or taken out completely).
  
  @abc33kr: To avoid posting so many times.
  That would be (109 + 186 + 22x). Barehand damage.
• abc33kr wrote on 2011-01-03 07:01

  Quote from Jovo;274198:

  The divided by half thing isn't necessarily correct. Smash and windmill are calculated through Right hand + Left hand + barehand damage. What you see on the character screen is the stats if you choose to whack an enemy separately.

  
  
  you are right about dividing by half not being correct all the time, but it does give a general sense of what to expect.
  
  (109+186+372.5)=667.5max when calculating for skills. That is ur supposedly g10 max rite?
  well with g13 gears, your giant can easily surpass a snow golem.
  
  btw I did acknowledge that golems will overpower giants in fights within a confined space.
• Cynic wrote on 2011-01-03 07:05

  Quote from Offspring;274221:

  I'll be up front. I hate alchemy. I grinded my teeth through g9-g12. Despite hating alchemy, I realize that it's easier to obtain higher damage and enchants. Heck they even have their own "special" category where they can bend the rules and gain exponential EXP off of those less experienced and having trouble with generation quests.
  
  I'm not saying that alchemist are bad, just the idea of crushing my entire character's build in such a short period is heart breaking. Honestly, I see alchemy as what gunpowder did to knights in armor. Stuffing spheres into tubes, sound familiar? Actually, now that I think about it alchemy really is like gun powder because it allows someone less experienced to defeat someone who's trained their whole life in the ways of the sword. Remember the Ending of last Samurai?
  
  If you want to soil your race with alchemy then go ahead. I've always admired giants because of their abilities and as creatures. Flaws an all. Giant alchemist are dead to me.
  :smoke:

  
  
  So much hate. xD
  
  Alchemy has it's own challenges. Although one does get a feeling of accomplishment from spending more time, money, etc., on building up their character.. Alchemy is still a respected class.
  
  To use Alchemy properly, you have to have a tactic. Given, said tactic(s) isn't that hard to find, but still. Alchemy can be tedious just as any other class. Alchemy Mastery is the WM of the Alchemy world. ..Actually, WM is easier at first.
  Just because it's easier compared to other 'classes', doesn't mean everyone will gear for it. There are other aspects of each class that give one an upperhand in some situations.
  Alchemists, assuming they don't branch off into other sub-classes, have very low HP. Furthermore, if you disable them from charging skills, they're kind of effed.
  Melee on the otherhand has the power to fight back without having to rely on skills alone. The same cannot be said for Alchemy.
  
  Each class has it's pros and cons.
• Shanghai wrote on 2011-01-03 07:06
  Melee is more quicker than Alchemy. Alchemy requires charges or at least some loading time before they can unleash their damage(Flamer, WC, Golem, etc.). Melee players can simply Smash to get most of their potential output, and more with Down Attack later on. You can probably KS an Alchemist while they're busy loading their Golem into their Cylinders by clearing most of the room with a WM that crits or smashing enemies.
• radionoise wrote on 2011-01-03 07:08

  Quote from Jovo;274231:

  What you say may be true but you are talking about an endgame giant. I'm just a little discerned about the accessibility of a golem that is able to do so well compared to someone that has invested so much time. Sure, giants are able to do a bit more damage, but for someone like an elf to access melee on a scale of this power is just a little saddening.
  
  The costs of getting everything to it's absolute best versus a golem, which is far easier to max...it just seems pointless to try to reach a goal at the end of a long dark tunnel when a faster almost as good alternative takes 3 steps in comparison.

  
  
  I agree it can be disconcerting, it's not just melee... golems can outdamage just about every other skill with 1/15th of the AP, time and effort, but at the same time they don't give the same enthusiastic feeling of performing all those feats as a character... besides, the reason many of us play this game is because we enjoy the grind and seeing a blank slate of a character turn into something formidable is quite enjoyable in itself.
• Ailyene wrote on 2011-01-03 07:11

  Quote from Shanghai;274244:

  Melee is more quicker than Alchemy. Alchemy requires charges or at least some loading time before they can unleash their damage(Flamer, WC, Golem, etc.). Melee players can simply Smash to get most of their potential output, and more with Down Attack later on. You can probably KS an Alchemist while they're busy loading their Golem into their Cylinders by clearing most of the room with a WM that crits or smashing enemies.

  
  
  It depends on what difficulty the dungeon/room is. That surely does not apply to a lot of hardmode missions unless the windmiller happens to be extremely pro in melee. Then, that alchemist can use their golem in the next room and the room after that to kill faster than the windmiller unless the alchemist just sucks at using their golem so it dies early lol.
• Shanghai wrote on 2011-01-03 07:15

  Quote from Ailyene;274254:

  It depends on what difficulty the dungeon/room is. That surely does not apply to a lot of hardmode missions unless the windmiller happens to be extremely pro in melee. Then, that alchemist can use their golem in the next room and the room after that to kill faster than the windmiller unless the alchemist just sucks at using their golem so it dies early lol.

  
  
  :x How about we talk of something that Golem requires? Preparation. It's annoying to create crystals, and you have to spam Cullin SMs to get crystals if you're lazy to make them. Unlike the Alchemist, all a Meleer needs is a one-time commitment to proffing up a weapon, and after that it's just repairs.
• Ailyene wrote on 2011-01-03 07:18

  Quote from Shanghai;274261:

  :x How about we talk of something that Golem requires? Preparation. It's annoying to create crystals, and you have to spam Cullin SMs to get crystals if you're lazy to make them. Unlike the Alchemist, all a Meleer needs is a one-time commitment to proffing up a weapon, and after that it's just repairs.

  
  
  Well, that's sort of true. I'm a combination of melee/range/alchemy, so when I don't want to waste golem crystals, I just use melee and if I'd rather kill quicker but use more materials, I'll use golem. Honestly, forest and sulfur crystals are extremely easy to mass-produce using synthesis, but that also requires the alchemist to rank up synthesis. In the end, it really depends on a person's playing style.
  
  Also, I wouldn't call proffing a weapon a one-time commitment. The NPCs love to kill my swords' dura so much. =( It's certainly less than golem crystals though.
• Shanghai wrote on 2011-01-03 07:19

  Quote from Ailyene;274264:

  Also, I wouldn't call proffing a weapon a one-time commitment. The NPCs love to kill my swords' dura so much. =( It's certainly less than golem crystals though.

  
  
  I know right, it's like all the NPCs of Mabinogi have butterfingers or something. >:L