Are we too powerful?

• TinyMo wrote on 2011-01-21 19:39
  Nice thread guys :thumb: Not only did I like your points; it was a fun read.
• Fracture wrote on 2011-01-22 01:56
  Only read OP, so this is directed only at it.
  
  The problem with your theory is that those super-humans are what the premise of our character type is. The Tuatha and Fomor are far more numerous, and frequently very strong, but are limited. The entire purpose of the Milletians is that they are boundless warrior. With an infinite lifepsan, they continue to grow more powerful on a fairly steady basis, growing strong enough to challenge the gods themselves.
  
  However, I could see a few modifications that could be implemented to make the playing experience more true to the original feel. While I personally relish the feeling of being outnumbered and outgunned now, I know too that it's fun to have to be smart to beat your foes rather than just fast and strong.
  
  1: Linear Generations
  Rather than all starting fairly easy and getting kinda harder, not to mention scaling difficulty and allowing you to start any chapter independently, the generations should be unlocked in chronological order through a given milletian's life. Each should have been made tougher on a scale that the first parts of the new gen should be as hard as the final missions of the last. By G13, you should be facing absolute hell, no matter what level you are. We've faced World-Destroyers, Dragons and Gods-- and now the Grim Reaper unveils himself, only to get OHKO'd by people? That's BS. That thing should be twice as smart as we are and take everything we have to bring down.
  
  But thanks to level scaling-- some dweeb who doesn't even have Paladin yet can just cruise leisurely through the whole generation, slaughtering monsters that fall like spiders.
  
  2: Better AI
  Ok, sure. Skeletons in Rabbie aren't gonna be too bright, and I'm fine with that. But when highly-trained fomorian warriors do the exact same thing? That's ridiculous. AI needs a serious revamp, including predictive capabilities and more usable skills, not to mention some random patterns. Hell, some mobs you can just lock into infinite AI loops because they don't learn. Rat Men? I can see them doing that. Fomor Commanders? Not so much. Harder difficulties, too, should have some effect apart from just scaling up HP/Def/Prot. They should be smarter, and with more tools at their disposal.
  
  Will continue this later most likely, but I must depart.
• Justified wrote on 2011-01-22 02:01

  Quote from Joker;299674:

  You... Die ... to dopplegangers? O_O? w/o a strategy?... well its a strategy.. but not a very good 1.. smash mill O_O.... run up... Smash run back ... Meteor... Smash mill... Dead O_O? idk.. its really easy..

  
  
  That works for one Doppleganger. Now what do you do if there's two?
  And you can't meteor in Theater/Dungeon/Field, so yea...
• Claudia wrote on 2011-01-22 02:06
  Wow, this was a good read.
  I don't really have much to add, but I agree. Even though I played in Beta times, I didn't really get into it until a few months ago.
  And I do ask myself, why do people tell me to train a skill that takes away 10% of my health? And the part about getting my ass owned in Shadow Missions because i'm outnumbered is true. :>
  There isn't a soul around to ask for help, hell, i've never partied anybody before because there's nobody in Tir and nobody wants a noob in their party.
  
  That's only @OP btw.
• Juno wrote on 2011-01-22 04:29
  In general, I agree.
  
  It's true that we are 'overpowered' but it's more of a mechanical issue than a no level cap symptom. For example, mabinogi is a classless game. That means that skills have to be balanced in light of all other skills. Unfortunately, Devcat only saw fit to balance them in regard to other skills of the same type. It's fairly obvious that frozen blast -> thunder never crossed their minds...or perhaps it was left in under the assumption that two separate people would use it as a party combo. The bottom line is that a classless game is insanely hard to balance, if it is at all possible.
  
  Secondly, windmill is a broken skill and has been such since g1. Back then, however, it took a lot of dedication and time to get it to r1 and even then it didn't do a ton of damage because weapons weren't as advanced. As we get more powerful, it becomes painfully obvious that windmilling (not spam, but careful milling) is the golden path to defeat any and all challenges in game. It has very high DPS, is very safe and costs virtually nothing to use since hp pots are a dime a dozen.
  
  In addition, rather than write any new AIs Devcat has chosen to simply put mob hp/prot on steroids. Since it's now so difficult to land crits, windmill pulls further away in terms of dps since it ignores prot. Also, with tons of mobs, windmill is the only option other than wind guard..and we all know that's a futile skill. In the beginning, fighting mobs was an exercise in quick decisions and clever play...now it's degenerated into spam AoEs until you or your enemy stops moving.
  
  I'll...continue tomorrow...bedtime now~
• rinaek wrote on 2011-01-22 06:05
  I have to agree that the community has changed. Back when beta just ended, you could set a campfire where the gray wolves were in Tir Chonaill, and random people would come sit and chat. And party dungeons were much more common.
  Part of the problem is that shadow missions completely destroyed party dungeons, and yet, the dungeon system is designed to be run through in parties for passes.
  The amount of time it takes to find your own passes makes it not worth it anymore. You can't just hop into another party, find a pass, make your own party, and continue the cycle. People were actively seeking parties. Now, not so much. It's either solo dungeons, solo missions, and the occasional Shadow Wizard Basic group. There's no longer any point in congregating at a common spot to look for a team.
• Cuathal wrote on 2011-01-22 13:36
  I'd also like to add my two cents.
  
  First off, G13 is easy because it's like a Generation Tutorial. It's designed to allow the player to get the feel of the game. The Reaper is actually quite hard for a first timer. Don't believe me? I direct you to a video I made VERY recently concerning the Reaper: My fight against Grim Reaper Beginner Mode. He has a system where if you get hit three times, and you're not potting, you're dead meat.
  
  I agree with OP in that Windmill is very overused. It's so overused, that I swore to myself I'd never touch it on Kuurazan. This is a rule I'm following to the core. Also, Reaper is immune to Windmill (surprise), so another reason why we shouldn't get it as badly. NERF IT! Those players that leave the game due to WM being nerfed don't have the will to change their style of play, and thus, we don't need their kind - the kind that refuses to evolve and adapt.
  
  One other thing I'd like to add: TEAR DOWN THE WALL SAYING GIANTS AND ELVES CAN'T DO G1! If devCat can make voiced animated cutscenes in a game like Mabi, they can edit an entire Generation to fit a Giant/Elf. To say that G1 is about the humans is racism. Elves and Giants can help Humans with G1; why not go a step further? Really would not take much work, to be honest.
  
  Note: Humans can still access G2 and G3, because I say that G5 belongs to the Elves, and G6 to the Giants - the Trans quests fall under G2, G5, and G6. G3 should remain Human-only to give Humans a little diversity (or maybe just make it accessible to everyone; point in case is that I hate Human racism, it's getting WAY out of hand).
  
  I know G1 is often a skipped Generation by newbies. Why? Pros encourage the removal of a game's story nowadays. I rarely see ANYONE stationed at Tir Chonaill, ready to help a newbie. I myself have said that when I clear G1, I shall visit TNN, specifically Albey, to help ANYONE with their G1 Finales. The fight is fun, it's hard as nails (provided you don't use cheap tactics like WM Spam, Golem, or Demigod), and it teaches you to WORK TOGETHER! That's what G1 was meant to do in the first place!
  
  Flame me all you want, I'll bear it. But I've said my piece. I'm willing to make the changes to play the game differently. Now it's your turn, people.
  
  Mabinogi has begun its Renaissance. Only those that can adapt deserve to be here. (This is my mindset. Agree with me if you will; flame if you want.)
• Majikaru wrote on 2011-01-22 14:03
  I somewhat feel like the game has progressed to something like this...
  I realized this when I was doing maiz with a friend and everything was too easy because we could one-hit everything.
  I tried to make things more fun by removing my weapons and fighting things with a strategy in mind, and it was probably the most enlightening experience I've had in a while. My friend didn't like it so much though.
  
  Honestly though, I can't feel exactly what you guys are feeling because I have this constant barrier of lag that keeps certain things unspammable.
• Cuathal wrote on 2011-01-22 14:24

  Quote from Majikaru;300480:

  I somewhat feel like the game has progressed to something like this...
  I realized this when I was doing maiz with a friend and everything was too easy because we could one-hit everything.
  I tried to make things more fun by removing my weapons and fighting things with a strategy in mind, and it was probably the most enlightening experience I've had in a while. My friend didn't like it so much though.
  
  Honestly though, I can't feel exactly what you guys are feeling because I have this constant barrier of lag that keeps certain things unspammable.

  
  
  Players in general need to be open to experimenting with different ideas. For example, I'm trying to get a static party together for G1 where Trans/High-Tier Alchemy/Demigod/WM spam is forbidden. It presents a challenge, MAKES people think on the spot, and it's different than the norm. It's a way to be FUN. Seriously, the pros are KILLING FUN! Their idea of fun repels newbies, instead of drawing them in, like bees unto nectar.
  
  I think the lag is due to the realization of how easy and beneficial Theater Missions are. Players want easy experience, for little to no work, and they feel they want it now (last line is GROSS exaggeration, and I'm also lacking numbers here). This is also a beggar's mentality - they want power, they want it for little to no work, and they want it now, because they feel they deserve it.
  (Note: I'm blunt here because I don't seem to have people listening unless I am)
  
  Simply put: Pros forget what it was like to be new. It was several years ago (2006) that it's hard for them to remember. The game has changed so much, so when a newbie asks a question, the pro doesn't know how to answer, so they direct them to the Wiki. While informative, it's a lame excuse for not keeping up with change.
  
  Also, we see Koreans and Japs, thinking we can pull off the same stunts, when in fact, gaming is bigger over there than it is here. Point in case: G13's Reaper Fight. Newsflash, people: The Korean Video was most likely a professional gamer with a really pro setup. Not everyone can afford stuff like that, ESPECIALLY given the economy of America.
  
  Change is necessary. As I've said (and go ahead and consider this Darwinism, I'll live), those who cannot adapt will fall behind. You come to me when Mabinogi suddenly releases a boss that thinks like a human, summons a mob that resists or nullifies WM, and requires a strat that is MUCH different than how we play now, and whine and complain that the game is no longer fun. And I will say: I warned you this might happen.
  
  It's going to be akin to the Shakespeare controversy in G13 (if anyone bothers to pay attention to what they're actually saying, Shakespeare prophesied the fall of the Parthalonians, but they ignored him, and then were wiped out. He was only trying to help).
• Koishi wrote on 2011-01-22 16:29

  Secondly, windmill is a broken skill and has been such since g1.

  
  
  Windmill is not broken in the slightest. Not only would nerfing or removing it basically make melee specialization virtually useless (without WM, literally every specialization does what it does better), but using Windmill as a main means of attack takes quite a bit of skill in terms of positioning, pet control, not to mention that to maximize DPS, you need to detract from your survivability by not using a shield (and passive shield defenses actually ARE broken).
  
  In any case, OP's premise is laughable; yes there are a lot of missions/challenges that you don't need a high level of teamwork and strategy to accomplish and can just power through. But as Cryosite said, if stuff didn't become easier, what would be the point of leveling up? But there are lots of things that DO require teamwork and strategy (looking at you, Fortinbras' Expedition), even for high-level players. If you want to re-experience struggling to clear Ciar Basic, roll a new char.
  
  

  As I've said (and go ahead and consider this Darwinism, I'll live), those who cannot adapt will fall behind. You come to me when Mabinogi suddenly releases a boss that thinks like a human, summons a mob that resists or nullifies WM, and requires a strat that is MUCH different than how we play now, and whine and complain that the game is no longer fun.

  
  
  Orrrrrrrrrrr, if the rewards are worth it, then we'll adapt to it, and find a way to beat it. If the rewards are not worth it, people won't run it. I just feel like this whole thing is basically a nostalgia-wank for beta/C1 gameplay (which imo sucked). Guess what, not everyone started playing in 2006; the game doesn't need to be "rebalanced" to your sensibilities.
  
  Also, the dungeon system needs to be rebalanced to begin with, starting with the passes. (but then again, unrestricted passes probably make NX a killing, so don't hold your breath).
• Fracture wrote on 2011-01-22 17:02

  Quote from Cuathal;300472:

  
  First off, G13 is easy because it's like a Generation Tutorial. It's designed to allow the player to get the feel of the game.

  
  This is what I have a problem with. For human characters, this is G1. It should not be skipped, as it allows you to get a feel for the game. And Glas, I might add, is a fair bit harder for a beginner than the Reaper. I have seen Reaper defeated with nothing but normal running and normal attacks. Would not work on Glas. He requires either tactics or power to beat.
  
  For elves and giants, either their transformation questline or G7 should be their tutorial generation.
  
  I maintain that G13 should be utter hell, not the loads of fluff and occasional wimpy bosses that it is now.
• sakraycore wrote on 2011-01-22 18:08
  That normal attacks and normal running wouldn't really work on reaper on hard mode Im guessing since it would probably do all 1s.
  
  Anyways, if you magnum spam from range, you could still dodge all his attacks though. And considering magnum has a 500% multiplier, at least you wouldn't be doing 1s.
• Cuathal wrote on 2011-01-22 18:20

  Orrrrrrrrrrr, if the rewards are worth it, then we'll adapt to it, and find a way to beat it. If the rewards are not worth it, people won't run it. I just feel like this whole thing is basically a nostalgia-wank for beta/C1 gameplay (which imo sucked). Guess what, not everyone started playing in 2006; the game doesn't need to be "rebalanced" to your sensibilities.
  
  Also, the dungeon system needs to be rebalanced to begin with, starting with the passes. (but then again, unrestricted passes probably make NX a killing, so don't hold your breath).

  
  
  Then just make the game pay to play and be done with it. Grinding is not fun, despite what you may think. The instant a game loses its fun to someone, it's no longer a game; it becomes a chore.
  
  Nexon realized this with Maple, so what did they do? Pull the 2x EXP cards. People raged left and right. Many a quitting sale was had. But Maple's still going strong.
  
  To me, it sounds like you hate newbies, because your logic is that they must suffer the same way you do to enjoy a game that should be fun from the start. So have fun killing the game due to stagnant new membership.
  
  

  This is what I have a problem with. For human characters, this is G1. It should not be skipped, as it allows you to get a feel for the game. And Glas, I might add, is a fair bit harder for a beginner than the Reaper. I have seen Reaper defeated with nothing but normal running and normal attacks. Would not work on Glas. He requires either tactics or power to beat.
  
  For elves and giants, either their transformation questline or G7 should be their tutorial generation.
  
  I maintain that G13 should be utter hell, not the loads of fluff and occasional wimpy bosses that it is now.

  
  
  This is what I have a problem with too. You realize that when pros help, they hold no quarter, so a newbie NEVER learns? All the pros do, is spam Golem/Demi/Trans/WM Offense, and never let the newbie actually learn to FIGHT THESE DANG THINGS?!
  
  I can speak from personal experience there: When I did G1, there was an Elf Ranger and a Human Wizzie who duo'd the thing and told me to stay out of the way. I learned the truth that day - that people care less about G1 to where they hastily finish it in order to get it out of the way, calling it a hassle or annoying, or they just tell you to skip it all together. Because apparently, story matters not anymore. Letting a newbie learn matters not anymore.
  
  
  Because Mabi's now all about the pros, and newbies should die in a fire.
  
  
  (As painful as this is to say, it came from my heart, so I'm not gonna take it back. I invited flames unto myself by doing this.)
• Okitaru wrote on 2011-01-22 18:48
  Artifical Difficulty.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-01-22 21:01

  Quote from Cuathal;300590:

  Then just make the game pay to play and be done with it. Grinding is not fun, despite what you may think. The instant a game loses its fun to someone, it's no longer a game; it becomes a chore.
  
  Nexon realized this with Maple, so what did they do? Pull the 2x EXP cards. People raged left and right. Many a quitting sale was had. But Maple's still going strong.
  
  To me, it sounds like you hate newbies, because your logic is that they must suffer the same way you do to enjoy a game that should be fun from the start. So have fun killing the game due to stagnant new membership.
  

  
  
  Dude
  
  What the **** are you talking about? What does grinding have to do with adjusting to beat a new challenge for greater reward? Are you saying we should do difficult things just for kicks? I'm really trying to follow the logic of your post.