Are we too powerful?

• Juno wrote on 2011-01-23 02:41

  Quote from Koishi:

  Windmill is not broken in the slightest. Not only would nerfing or removing it basically make melee specialization virtually useless (without WM, literally every specialization does what it does better), but using Windmill as a main means of attack takes quite a bit of skill in terms of positioning, pet control, not to mention that to maximize DPS, you need to detract from your survivability by not using a shield (and passive shield defenses actually ARE broken).
  
  In any case, OP's premise is laughable; yes there are a lot of missions/challenges that you don't need a high level of teamwork and strategy to accomplish and can just power through. But as Cryosite said, if stuff didn't become easier, what would be the point of leveling up? But there are lots of things that DO require teamwork and strategy (looking at you, Fortinbras' Expedition), even for high-level players. If you want to re-experience struggling to clear Ciar Basic, roll a new char.

  
  
  I'm not advocating for a removal of windmill, or a crippling nerf. Something as small as removing its ability to crit would do the trick since then it wouldn't double as best defensive and best offensive skill. I'm also well aware that using only windmill takes skill and hinted at it, though I didn't explicitly state it I suppose. In those situations, removing the crits would only make it take longer but would not make it impossible.
  
  Without windmill, melee still has a lot of perks. For the most part, I completely forego milling and still am a demanding presence on the battlefield. This is mainly because, with a battlehammer or knuckles, windmill is far less useful than dual-wield.
  
  
  I don't think the OP is complaining that things are easier, but rather that we're being force-fed a faux difficulty rather than a true challenge. G1 is worth mentioning because back then a confrontation was decided by a players skill, for the most part. Now, we're using the same tactics...but we have to repeat them several times to actually kill a monster. The pacing of the game suffers as a result and the fun factor takes a nosedive. The only 'challenges' are things that can't be dealt with entirely through player skill such as massive multi-aggro.
  
  To be fair, I think the theatre missions are a large step in the right direction. The monsters don't have nauseating hp/prot values, but it's still challenging enough to warrant not coasting through on auto-pilot. Missions are short, sweet and to the point...and you don't have to spam beginner levels to get to the stuff you actually want to run.
• sakraycore wrote on 2011-01-23 02:54

  Something as small as removing its ability to crit would do the trick since then it wouldn't double as best defensive and best offensive skill.

  
  
  Even though windmill is best offense and defense, it's not the safest move by any stretch of the imagination. Adv magic, or range, or alchemy are all much safer method of killing which also kill pretty damn fast.
  
  That excellent defense of windmill is needed because you're right in the middle of the enemy mob, and that critical ability is the defining feature of the windmill. Dare I say that without critical windmill is useless as an attack skill.
• Yanm wrote on 2011-01-23 02:55

  Quote from sakraycore;300582:

  That normal attacks and normal running wouldn't really work on reaper on hard mode Im guessing since it would probably do all 1s.
  
  Anyways, if you magnum spam from range, you could still dodge all his attacks though. And considering magnum has a 500% multiplier, at least you wouldn't be doing 1s.

  
  
  Actually, the normal attack and running works perfectly fine for me. The Reaper is pretty easy to me; I've been on him since 5 p.m. yesterday and I've just been using him as my proffing tool. I don't do 1's at all to him, I used a non-upgraded Claymore and I was doing 60s-70s normally. This is on HM, and I hardly have any enchants, except for Otter on my Val, but that's about it that affets my melee damage. I die every now and then by a mistake, but I can still use him perfectly as a prof tool. Even better when he lags, and it generally takes about 5 minutes or so before he's nearly dead. 14 prof per run for me :D
  
  @Cuathal An enemy that thinks like a human, summons a tough monster that's resistant/immune to windmill? It's probably not completely, but this sounds like Master Lich a bit. He plays like my human friend; Fully charges fireball, launches and then IMMEDIATELY charges Thunder so you can't get away. Besides, windmill doesn't work on Ghasts solo. Ghasts will wait till you are out of the animation and smash you. Heck, I remember seeing one ghast smash through an Infra Black's MS, All of his hp, and still do 1.1k.....
• Juno wrote on 2011-01-23 04:25

  Quote from sakraycore;301175:

  Even though windmill is best offense and defense, it's not the safest move by any stretch of the imagination. Adv magic, or range, or alchemy are all much safer method of killing which also kill pretty damn fast.
  
  That excellent defense of windmill is needed because you're right in the middle of the enemy mob, and that critical ability is the defining feature of the windmill. Dare I say that without critical windmill is useless as an attack skill.

  
  
  
  Yeah, I know it's not the safest out of all skillsets, but there's a reason it's referred to as the crown jewel of melee combat. I don't want to change the defense because like you said, it's necessary. However, there are obvious problems that arise when it's got the best defense and a top notch offense...making it a sub par choice for an attacking skill is sort of the idea. The defining feature should be the invincibility frames and AoE.
• sakraycore wrote on 2011-01-23 05:25

  Quote from Juno;301291:

  Yeah, I know it's not the safest out of all skillsets, but there's a reason it's referred to as the crown jewel of melee combat. I don't want to change the defense because like you said, it's necessary. However, there are obvious problems that arise when it's got the best defense and a top notch offense...making it a sub par choice for an attacking skill is sort of the idea. The defining feature should be the invincibility frames and AoE.

  
  
  That would ruin melee though.
  
  It would even ruin my crash shot -> windmill -> arrow revolver combo -.-
  
  Ughhhh no thanks :(
  
  Seriously mobs have too much HP/DEF/Prot now, and a weaker windmill will just mean we all get nerfed since it's not even just melee that uses windmill :X and it's quite a good source of damage when it crits, if it doesnt its just pretty weak overall.
• Zatrox wrote on 2011-01-23 06:40

  Quote from Juno;301154:

  I'm not advocating for a removal of windmill, or a crippling nerf. Something as small as removing its ability to crit would do the trick since then it wouldn't double as best defensive and best offensive skill. I'm also well aware that using only windmill takes skill and hinted at it, though I didn't explicitly state it I suppose. In those situations, removing the crits would only make it take longer but would not make it impossible.

  
  
  Actually, I'd rather have its ability to reset aggro be taken out... @@
  It makes "entertainingly hard" beasts like Master Lich a cakewalk
• Crimmy wrote on 2011-01-23 07:29
  I honestly think Monster AI just needs to be smartened and quickened up a bit. Most monsters just stand there for a second or two before finally using a skill. Ogres, Golems, and such are perfect examples of this.
  
  Even Hamlet in the sparring match did this every other time I countered him. He'd just stand there with no skill loading (not out of lag, I assure you, I've seen this hundreds of times) and give me a perfect opportunity to bolt fuse him. Reaper was a piece of cake because of his easily avoidable aoe skills. It was a fun fight because I had JUST hit hardmode but it was nothing like the G8 and G9 bosses where they actually targeted you with an attack that was nearly unavoidable.
  
  I just wish fights were a little more engaging. As if I were fighting an actual ruthless monster and not just some slow sometimes-glitchy AI pattern.
• Xemnas wrote on 2011-01-23 07:33

  Quote from Crimmy;301480:

  
  
  Even Hamlet in the sparring match did this every other time I countered him. He'd just stand there with no skill loading.

  
  I killed him with smash>counter>windmill
  
  then to be dramatic I just punched him.
• Dixon wrote on 2011-01-23 07:36

  Quote from Zatrox;301443:

  Actually, I'd rather have its ability to reset aggro be taken out... @@
  It makes "entertainingly hard" beasts like Master Lich a cakewalk

  
  
  This to the max.
  
  There is NO ****ING REASON FOR THE AI RESET.
  
  GET RID OF IT NOW.
• Juno wrote on 2011-01-23 14:47

  Quote from sakraycore;301376:

  That would ruin melee though.
  
  It would even ruin my crash shot -> windmill -> arrow revolver combo -.-
  
  Ughhhh no thanks :(
  
  Seriously mobs have too much HP/DEF/Prot now, and a weaker windmill will just mean we all get nerfed since it's not even just melee that uses windmill :X and it's quite a good source of damage when it crits, if it doesnt its just pretty weak overall.

  
  
  I really don't think it'd ruin melee at all. Granted, my style of melee doesn't involve much windmilling, so I might not be seeing eye to eye.
  
  The idea is to make changes that allow for monsters with less HP/Prot that still feel challenging. If windmill was changed in this way, it'd be allowable to also nerf monster durability. Right now, mobs need to have the beef to withstand at least one windmill crit to keep things interesting.
  
  Again, the whole point is to keep it from being 'quite a good source of damage.'
  
  

  Quote from Zatrox;301443:

  Actually, I'd rather have its ability to reset aggro be taken out... @@
  It makes "entertainingly hard" beasts like Master Lich a cakewalk

  
  
  If memory serves, criticals have strange interactions with monster aggro. The reason non-critical windmills reset monster aggro though is the KB + lack of a designated target. To change that would require a slight retooling of the engine or applying a taunt to all affected monsters. The latter is not desireable and the former...I don't really trust Devcat to undertake anything that actually requires work. Ever notice how the Avon fountains look identical to the new upgrade anvils?
• Fracture wrote on 2011-01-23 18:21

  Quote from Cuathal;300590:

  
  This is what I have a problem with too. You realize that when pros help, they hold no quarter, so a newbie NEVER learns? All the pros do, is spam Golem/Demi/Trans/WM Offense, and never let the newbie actually learn to FIGHT THESE DANG THINGS?!
  
  I can speak from personal experience there: When I did G1, there was an Elf Ranger and a Human Wizzie who duo'd the thing and told me to stay out of the way. I learned the truth that day - that people care less about G1 to where they hastily finish it in order to get it out of the way, calling it a hassle or annoying, or they just tell you to skip it all together. Because apparently, story matters not anymore. Letting a newbie learn matters not anymore.
  
  
  Because Mabi's now all about the pros, and newbies should die in a fire.
  
  
  (As painful as this is to say, it came from my heart, so I'm not gonna take it back. I invited flames unto myself by doing this.)

  
  
  I agree. But then there's the flip-side, newbies who want everything handed to them. A couple days back, in fact, some guy asked for help with his G1 Final. I know Light Gargs can be a pain, so I said sure, intending to hold back a bit, probably do just normal shots so that he could fight too.
  
  Quickly found out he didn't intend to do anything. I wound up fighting everything in the damn dungeon while he fiddled around on his Lute.
  
  Yeah... I left at Glas and told him he was supposed to be able to take it out himself.
  
  I remember doing my own generations, and throwing myself mindlessly at them until I was done. I skipped G1, I grant you, but that was because I'd already been playing for ages by the time generations didn't require service, and figured that being an archer, I didn't need the enchant, and already having helped others with G1 I didn't want to do it again. But I took on G2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 mostly on my own. The only times I got much help were with my G3 Final, when a strong melee fighter helped my with Cromm (my damage was just too low to kill him in any reasonable amount of time) and in G11 Final, because I had JUST reached hardmode, and so got screwed kinda badly by the insane jump in Uro HP.
  
  Newbies just don't seem to want to do that anymore. They beg fighters and RA's to carry them through generation after generation. I asked one, during a Final Battle Adv, why he missed Trans. His reply? "Oh I haven't done G2, it's too hard and I have to solo." A lv300+ that can't do G2? Seriously?
• Yanm wrote on 2011-01-23 18:32

  Quote from Fracture;301770:

  I agree. But then there's the flip-side, newbies who want everything handed to them. A couple days back, in fact, some guy asked for help with his G1 Final. I know Light Gargs can be a pain, so I said sure, intending to hold back a bit, probably do just normal shots so that he could fight too.
  
  Quickly found out he didn't intend to do anything. I wound up fighting everything in the damn dungeon while he fiddled around on his Lute.
  
  Yeah... I left at Glas and told him he was supposed to be able to take it out himself.
  
  I remember doing my own generations, and throwing myself mindlessly at them until I was done. I skipped G1, I grant you, but that was because I'd already been playing for ages by the time generations didn't require service, and figured that being an archer, I didn't need the enchant, and already having helped others with G1 I didn't want to do it again. But I took on G2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 mostly on my own. The only times I got much help were with my G3 Final, when a strong melee fighter helped my with Cromm (my damage was just too low to kill him in any reasonable amount of time) and in G11 Final, because I had JUST reached hardmode, and so got screwed kinda badly by the insane jump in Uro HP.
  
  Newbies just don't seem to want to do that anymore. They beg fighters and RA's to carry them through generation after generation. I asked one, during a Final Battle Adv, why he missed Trans. His reply? "Oh I haven't done G2, it's too hard and I have to solo." A lv300+ that can't do G2? Seriously?

  
  
  A lot of this is true. I see people ask for help with Seven Pages all the time. Honestly, just looking at how much hp they have on adv, it doesn't look THAT hard at all to me. Sure, the multi aggro parts might be challenging, I can understand with the lightning bolt spam, but that's nothing some play dead, then pet swiping couldn't handle. And, an adv level player that can't do g2?! I did g2 before my total was 200.....
• Claudia wrote on 2011-01-23 18:48

  Quote from Fracture;301770:

  Newbies just don't seem to want to do that anymore. They beg fighters and RA's to carry them through generation after generation. I asked one, during a Final Battle Adv, why he missed Trans. His reply? "Oh I haven't done G2, it's too hard and I have to solo." A lv300+ that can't do G2? Seriously?

  
  
  Yeah, i've seen a lot of people asking for help with Generations, TONS of people begging for Royal Alchemists to help them. Honestly, I feel bad for all RA's.
• Cuathal wrote on 2011-01-23 21:33
  At the time of posting, I am currently helping two newbies with a G1 Finale. I rigged their logouts so they'd stay in TNN, and then we'd use our pets to shuttle goods to and from our alts and humans. This allowed us to stay in TNN to get the G1 Finale done.
  
  It's been hell, but we're almost about to fight Glas. I'm recording the fight, so once we're done, I'll show you how it went.
  
  Also, to anyone who's played FFXI.... Doesn't Glas remind you of the Shadow Lord in a way?
  
  EDIT: Also, to you idiot noobs (not the people that just posted here, mind you) that want to be spoonfed and say G2 is too hard, I did it about almost all of it before my total hit 100. Proof that it's easy if you just LEARN!
• Serathx wrote on 2011-01-23 21:40
  Devcat's idea of tough monsters: Crap AI, just add over 9000 HP and Defense and Prot.
  I agree with pretty much everything the OP said, it's really intimidating to start playing Mabi
  if you don't already have friends who play to support you. There's no skill required in playing anymore.