Golem Exp Nerf

• Justified wrote on 2011-02-10 07:48

  Quote from Aubog007;328909:

  You would be surprised at the dura loss of cylinders. It is astonishing considering how little they are used.
  
  And whoever complains about the repair cost of Caliburn. That is your choice.

  
  
  I'm not surprised at all. I run around spamming Wind Blast, Golems, Water Cannon, melee, and everything with a Cylinder when I'm bored. It appears to have the same durability loss rate as any other weapon, and considering Golems are summoned much less than any other weapon is used, it follows that the dur usage is also extremely low.
  (Summoning a Golem uses about 5x as much dur as a regular attack. So unless you only get 4 attacks out of your golem, I doubt your repair rates are close to weapon status.)
  
  And I think Caliburn is well worth the repair rates. The point was that a melee character can't even hope to be near a golem without it, and that it costs a lot.
  
  

  Quote from Cryosite;328891:

  The summon golem skill doesn't need any severe nerfs. The reduction in size already happened, and any limitations made to snow golems are fine be they already in place or coming. Neither will impact the main purpose of the skill as I described: a way for a new player to get a step-up into being able to participate in medium-average content.

  
  
  The size "reduction" was overshadowed by the new skill that enlarges it. It's not really a nerf in the sense that it's potential was just drastically increased, both in size and in strength.
  
  You're saying that newbie chars should be able to participate with end-game chars, but this is already doable with a single Intermediate Magic, or even just Windmill and a good head. Raw damage is good, but good teamwork is better.
  
  Either way you look at it, even if it is intended as a facet to more easily jump into harder things, that doesn't explain why it's both massive and powerful. One or the other would be good, preferably the latter.
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-10 08:33

  Quote from Justified;328949:

  The size "reduction" was overshadowed by the new skill that enlarges it. It's not really a nerf in the sense that it's potential was just drastically increased, both in size and in strength.

  
  
  The nerf came when KR had both am1, golem1, and clay mastery1, and the combination of that let golems reach all walls in provocation, among other feats. Our post-g13 golems with those skills can't do that. It was a nerf. The fact that our golems are bigger than our old (pre-g13) golems doesn't change the fact that a nerf happened. Why is this hard to understand?
  
  

  Quote from Justified;328949:

  You're saying that newbie chars should be able to participate with end-game chars, but this is already doable with a single Intermediate Magic, or even just Windmill and a good head. Raw damage is good, but good teamwork is better.
  
  Either way you look at it, even if it is intended as a facet to more easily jump into harder things, that doesn't explain why it's both massive and powerful. One or the other would be good, preferably the latter.

  
  
  And golem is yet another way to do that. Should we nerf intermediate magic and/or windmill? Morighann knows that -everyone- is supposed to have WM, one of the arguments used against golem.
  
  There is more to things than just damage. Most people complain about how much golems can do and/or alchemy in general can do. It seems you and I agree that isn't the real problem, as all characters, developed to medium amounts, can dish out damage.
  
  The size was already nerfed. The damage is fine. The skill works fine.
  
  Only snow golems have any of the traits of "overpowering end-game characters" and only end-game characters can reasonably use them.
  
  Sulfur golems can be very cost efficient, if you rank up synthesis and transmutation. This pretty firmly pushes the ap cost to above intermediate magic, and intermediate magic is stronger than sulfur golems.
  
  Forest and stone golems are too weak to be a thread to any remotely well developed character, but are perfectly acessible to newbie and medium-level characters.
  
  Again, the skill seems fine and fits the purpose it is clearly designed to fill.
  
  About the only "problem" there seems to be with summon golem, is that it absolves a player from the need to train and equip for a powerful windmill of their own. I'd say that is a perfectly good reason to keep golems around, as it very firmly breaks the church of winrefine's dogma.
• abc33kr wrote on 2011-02-10 10:12

  Quote from Cryosite;328975:

  The nerf came when KR had both am1, golem1, and clay mastery1, and the combination of that let golems reach all walls in provocation, among other feats. Our post-g13 golems with those skills can't do that. It was a nerf. The fact that our golems are bigger than our old (pre-g13) golems doesn't change the fact that a nerf happened. Why is this hard to understand?
  
  
  
  And golem is yet another way to do that. Should we nerf intermediate magic and/or windmill? Morighann knows that -everyone- is supposed to have WM, one of the arguments used against golem.
  
  There is more to things than just damage. Most people complain about how much golems can do and/or alchemy in general can do. It seems you and I agree that isn't the real problem, as all characters, developed to medium amounts, can dish out damage.
  
  The size was already nerfed. The damage is fine. The skill works fine.

  
  
  tower cylinder
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-10 14:25

  Quote from sakraycore;328906:

  ^Good points.
  
  I'm all for newbies catching up to long term players, but where we feel it is unfair is for said newbies to become STRONGER than us. Which is basically the case here since golems' melee is better than actual melee mainly due to its range. Doesn't that need to be nerfed, at least a little?

  
  
  This is the wrong way to do it though - if it takes a player 1-2 years to get to midgame content, then that is a problem with the progression curve itself. Even if we accept the "golem gets to be OP because it allows low-leveled players
  
  

  A) as I said before, melee is the weakest "build" to begin with.
  B) a strong melee character is better than a snow golem. There is more to playing melee than WMWMWMWMWMWM.

  
  
  A) That's a problem with (human) melee itself. Melee simply has to accept lots and lots of deaths or a severe loss of DPS compared with other skillsets (unless you're a giant)
  B) You are wrong, at least if we use the way you describe melee. What you should say is a strong hybrid character is stronger/more effective than a snow golem. If you're using bolts and arrows as much as you're using your melee, then you're not a melee player, you're a hybrid player. If we define "melee" as "the overwhelming emphasis of your offensive ability is centered around melee" then both your propositions are wrong (as pure melee pretty much IS WMWMWMWM, unless you decide to be a tank, and melee is basically the worst class to tank in).
  
  

  The nerf came when KR had both am1, golem1, and clay mastery1, and the combination of that let golems reach all walls in provocation, among other feats. Our post-g13 golems with those skills can't do that. It was a nerf. The fact that our golems are bigger than our old (pre-g13) golems doesn't change the fact that a nerf happened. Why is this hard to understand?

  
  
  This is literally one of the most ridiculous statements I have EVER heard, on any venue. You have better golems now than you did before G12. That means they were NERFED? That's like saying 4 - 2 + 3 equates to something LESS than 4. No really, that's like saying humans were nerfed because they don't get Shadow Bunshin.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-10 15:39

  Quote from Koishi;329030:

  This is the wrong way to do it though - if it takes a player 1-2 years to get to midgame content, then that is a problem with the progression curve itself. Even if we accept the "golem gets to be OP because it allows low-leveled players
  
  
  
  A) That's a problem with (human) melee itself. Melee simply has to accept lots and lots of deaths or a severe loss of DPS compared with other skillsets (unless you're a giant)
  B) You are wrong, at least if we use the way you describe melee. What you should say is a strong hybrid character is stronger/more effective than a snow golem. If you're using bolts and arrows as much as you're using your melee, then you're not a melee player, you're a hybrid player. If we define "melee" as "the overwhelming emphasis of your offensive ability is centered around melee" then both your propositions are wrong (as pure melee pretty much IS WMWMWMWM, unless you decide to be a tank, and melee is basically the worst class to tank in).

  
  
  

  The nerf came when KR had both am1, golem1, and clay mastery1, and the combination of that let golems reach all walls in provocation, among other feats. Our post-g13 golems with those skills can't do that. It was a nerf. The fact that our golems are bigger than our old (pre-g13) golems doesn't change the fact that a nerf happened. Why is this hard to understand?

  
  
  This is literally one of the most ridiculous statements I have EVER heard, on any venue. You have better golems now than you did before G12. That means they were NERFED? That's like saying 4 - 2 + 3 equates to something LESS than 4. You are an idiot. Good day.
• sakraycore wrote on 2011-02-10 16:02

  Quote from Cryosite;328936:

  A) as I said before, melee is the weakest "build" to begin with.
  B) a strong melee character is better than a snow golem. There is more to playing melee than WMWMWMWMWMWM.

  
  
  I'm not mistaking anything. I've seen endgame melee players still use golems in harder dungeons. There's nothing a human can do which can actually match up to a golem even with endgame skills and endgame equip.
  
  Literally nothing else is needed when golem stacking requires next to no effort and presents nearly no danger of retaliation.
  
  Also, your wording is misleading. Why does a "strong" melee player need to use anything other than melee? Wouldn't that make him/her a hybrid of sorts?
  Nothing wrong with hybrid ofcourse, but that's just not what I think of when I think of a melee player.
  
  Frankly, I'm kind of ok with golems being slightly overpowered, but I'll just never be okay with players who use golems from outside of the room because I really feel this reduces any kind of need for teamwork at all ;_; I mean they won't even be hit so I have no need to protect them or anything. Makes a party almost redundant for anything but the hardest dungeons.
  
  Is it not enough that golems do the most damage and have the most range, but the player has to be completely free of danger as well? Why do newbies need that much power just to feel like they have caught up with the endgame players?
  
  The first time I've seen a 1/1/1 golem used is the first time I've ever felt to be useless. I'm not still, but it's easy to feel that way when
  A) Golem user will never die
  B) Monsters get 2 shotted by golems
  C) My damage can not measure up to golem
  D) My range can not measure up to golem even despite being a complete hybrid
  E) My efficiency can not measure to golem
  F) Golem user does not need any kind of protection at all by virtue of being outside
• Justified wrote on 2011-02-10 17:19
  The "teamwork" between a golem-user and a character-user is debatable.
  
  For the golem-user, a death is meaningless. There is no exp loss, no blessing loss, and no risk of a total wipe if a golem dies.
  Golem-users are also blinded by their strength. The size and power of a golem will make it so that they commonly ignore what other people are doing. If they see a mob they can hit, they will hit it. It doesn't matter if a party member was attacking it, because the golem will most likely do more damage. The large Windmill range facilitates this as well.
  Golem-users are separated from the party. In such a way that they don't have sharp mind, meaning they cannot see skills loaded, and party members cant see when that mob aggrod on the golem has counter loaded, possibly screwing them over. They also lose party health bars, and the ability to chat (without mods).
  
  In general, it's very annoying and boring to be partied with people using golems.
  
  
  As for the size reduction, it got smaller. Big deal, they're still huge. Just because it got nerfed that doesn't mean it's not still overly large.
• Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-10 18:14
  Koishi: THAT is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. That's like saying "x skill got uncapped, but during the same maintenance they uncapped it, they nerfed it. So it's a little weaker at r6 than it was before the nerf, but at r1 it's stronger than the pre-nerf r6. So it must have not been nerfed at all."
  
  Justified: A golem death is not "meaningless." First off, it costs money, just like any other death. Secondly, and more importantly, if you're in an 8-man party and the golem dies, you're losing 10-30% of the damage output, and 10-50% of the mob control/aggro. So in essence, a total wipe is possible with a golem death, just like a total wipe is possible because of a mage death, party healer death, melee death, or giant death.
  
  You're not talking about the Summon Golem skill. You're talking about an inexperienced user. You're speaking like EVERY golem user ("they") is an inexperienced, inconsiderate hero.
  
  Other servers don't have sharp mind and they do just fine.
• Justified wrote on 2011-02-10 18:30

  Quote from Sunureu13;329133:

  Justified: A golem death is not "meaningless." First off, it costs money, just like any other death. Secondly, and more importantly, if you're in an 8-man party and the golem dies, you're losing 10-30% of the damage output, and 10-50% of the mob control/aggro. So in essence, a total wipe is possible with a golem death, just like a total wipe is possible because of a mage death, party healer death, melee death, or giant death.
  
  You're not talking about the Summon Golem skill. You're talking about an inexperienced user. You're speaking like EVERY golem user ("they") is an inexperienced, inconsiderate hero.
  
  Other servers don't have sharp mind and they do just fine.

  
  
  The cost of a golem death is minor compared to the cost of a player death, unless the player gets lucky and doesn't lose blessings and such.
  Spawning a new golem creates one with full stats. A player needs to be healed or risk dying instantly.
  
  A total wipe is not possible with a golem death, because the golem user is not inside the room. Yes, you may lose damage output and mob control, but only for a few seconds when the next golem pops out. Albeit the user loses his/her godmode from being outside the room, it's still relatively meaningless.
  
  EVERY golem user is, including those above level x-thousand. I have yet to meet one that isn't. Call me a generalizer, but I see no problem with generalizing until proven wrong.
  
  Other servers don't have sharp mind, so what? We do. Our fighting styles are accustomed to seeing skill bubbles over mobs, and if there isn't one then we assume its neutral. Sharp Mind is a very underrated skill in that people don't realize that they're always using it. Foreign servers don't have this problem because they never rely on skill bubbles, they've already built their technique upon being blind.
• Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-10 18:43
  1 HW is 1k. If a player dies, IF they lose a large amount of blessings, it's between 5 and 7k. A Sulfur Golem costs 7k. A Snow Golem costs 12-15k. (This is of course the prices on Tarlach.)
  
  And yes, a total wipe IS possible more than you think. The golem controller is not always outside the room because:
  Rath SMs: The foyer, the long room near the beginning, the long room near the beginning, the dining hall, and the boss room.
  Tara SMs: Exposed to the mobs just like everyone else.
  Talt SMs: Always inside the room.
  Avon TMs: Always inside the room.
  Dungeons: I don't know about you, but I rarely run dungeons anymore.
  Everywhere: The golem dies and must be summoned again. Someone jumps the gun and doesn't let the golem user get set up to be outside the room (takes 2 seconds, and is very inconsiderate when it happens).
  
  Well, I don't know about your Ruairian golem users, but the main golem powerplayers here are sub-alchemy, so they know how to fight, and are generally considerate of other players.
  
  What's so hard about learning how to fight without skill bubbles? RPs teach us how to do that. It's really not that hard. Just look for a skill flash, walking/running/standing still and act accordingly.
• Justified wrote on 2011-02-10 18:54

  Quote from Sunureu13;329170:

  1 HW is 1k. If a player dies, IF they lose a large amount of blessings, it's between 5 and 7k. A Sulfur Golem costs 7k. A Snow Golem costs 12-15k. (This is of course the prices on Tarlach.)

  
  
  I don't know about you, but I have 11 items equipped, and it's rare for me to lose less than 4. Average is around 7-9. Then there's the cost of potions and such following the death that must be used to prevent further deaths, while the golem rebounds at 100%. Though this is nitpicking, so it's pretty irrelevant.
  
  Rath SMs / Tara SMs / Avon TMs: The larger areas accommodate for distant golem control. The threat is pretty minor, although I acknowledge it's there.
  Tail SMs : Can be control from outside as well, as long as you can judge the distance.
  Dungeons : Pretty much only Peaca, and surprisingly golems don't die that often in there.
  
  

  What's so hard about learning how to fight without skill bubbles? RPs teach us how to do that. It's really not that hard. Just look for a skill flash, walking/running/standing still and act accordingly.

  
  
  For solo play, yea sure. But now when you're in a room with 6+ mobs, and a bunch of other players, and giant golems blocking your view, try keeping track of everything. Mobs often stand still when they haven't yet decided to attack, while others will stand still with Windmill or Defense loaded. It's hard to differentiate between that and Counter when it's a mob you didn't have your focus on the entire time.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-10 20:09

  Quote from Sunureu13;329133:

  Koishi: THAT is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. That's like saying "x skill got uncapped, but during the same maintenance they uncapped it, they nerfed it. So it's a little weaker at r6 than it was before the nerf, but at r1 it's stronger than the pre-nerf r6. So it must have not been nerfed at all."
  

  
  
  That is irrelevant. The proposition of "Our golems aren't as big as KR golems, therefore they are nerfed" is ridiculous. The question is, is your golem bigger than it was in G12? If so, then it was buffed. It simply wasn't buffed AS MUCH as they were in KR. Slightly smaller buff = / = nerf. A nerf is making something weaker after the nerf than it was before the nerf. Golems are not weaker after G13 than they were in G12, they are stronger. Therefore they were not nerfed.
  
  But golem users will say literally anything at this point to justify their abuse of a broken skill.
• Kenero wrote on 2011-02-10 20:26

  Quote from Justified;329151:

  The cost of a golem death is minor compared to the cost of a player death, unless the player gets lucky and doesn't lose blessings and such.
  Spawning a new golem creates one with full stats. A player needs to be healed or risk dying instantly.
  
  A total wipe is not possible with a golem death, because the golem user is not inside the room. Yes, you may lose damage output and mob control, but only for a few seconds when the next golem pops out. Albeit the user loses his/her godmode from being outside the room, it's still relatively meaningless.
  
  EVERY golem user is, including those above level x-thousand. I have yet to meet one that isn't. Call me a generalizer, but I see no problem with generalizing until proven wrong.
  
  Other servers don't have sharp mind, so what? We do. Our fighting styles are accustomed to seeing skill bubbles over mobs, and if there isn't one then we assume its neutral. Sharp Mind is a very underrated skill in that people don't realize that they're always using it. Foreign servers don't have this problem because they never rely on skill bubbles, they've already built their technique upon being blind.

  
  
  You need to join me in Mari sometimes.
  
  I got such ridiculously polite golem users. A lot of golem users I partied with, when someone is using final hit... they go behind the enemy and wait til the person knocks it back when FH ends to hit it. I got even one who after flame burst waits until it is knock back to windmill.
  
  I even got a golem users in elite who wm monsters during Sulfur Spider into the Crash shot area.
  
  Maybe I'm just blessed with running into players like that. Usually players who do that are well into thousand levels and have built up common game etiquette. It's mostly those type of players who are already so strong so switching to a golem is just like playing another similar character, but they know in general how it works.
• Retard wrote on 2011-02-11 00:02
  It seems that the size of the golem is what helps it in being OP. And it seems that you guys are upset that low leveled playerlike me (800) Can match up with a high leveled player in the meelee build. Well, I'll have you know, no noobs could earn nearly as much money to supply them to r1 golem, AM, and EAM. Even at my low level, alot of my money came from rafting which required me to obtain r1 thunder for highest efficiency. If you think golem is Op (500-600 AP?) to match up with a level 4k meelee build. Think about this. All i need to match up with that same meelee build is to obtain rank 1 thunder, MM, rank 1 LMM, and rank 1 critical (700AP+ slightly more than golem build) . And might i say, that magic build is MUCH cheaper ( and less boring ) Then the clay alchemy build mentioned in the beginning.
• Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-11 00:10

  Quote from Koishi;329279:

  That is irrelevant. The proposition of "Our golems aren't as big as KR golems, therefore they are nerfed" is ridiculous. The question is, is your golem bigger than it was in G12? If so, then it was buffed. It simply wasn't buffed AS MUCH as they were in KR. Slightly smaller buff = / = nerf. A nerf is making something weaker after the nerf than it was before the nerf. Golems are not weaker after G13 than they were in G12, they are stronger. Therefore they were not nerfed.
  
  But golem users will say literally anything at this point to justify their abuse of a broken skill.

  
  
  ... Are you for real? You're jumping through hoops to try and twist words and actions. You need to either drop your ridiculously biased anti-golem attitude or leave.
  
  It was nerfed, not buffed. EVERY. OTHER. (damage) SKILL. Has a mastery now. (sans x/bow until g14) Do you understand that? Sword mastery gives +20 max. Ice Mastery gives +15% damage. Etc. You understand that right? Please tell me you do. Because of the new int formula, Int Magic got nerfed and does 15% less damage. With the new masteries, you can do more damage than pre-g13. Int Magic was still nerfed. The same. damn. thing. with. golem. Because of the new size adjustment, golem size got nerfed. With the new Clay Mastery (Yeah, that thing, one of those new masteries I was talking about, k?), you can get bigger golems than you could pre-g13.
  
  Get it? Please reply with some sort of statement attempting to disprove what I just said. PLEASE DO. I want to see how far you will go :)
  
  p.s. Using a skill the way it was intended is not abusing. ;D