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Justified wrote on 2011-02-12 23:17
Actually Ice Mastery isn't in the Bolt Fusion calculations. I left it out for a couple reasons...
I wanted to keep the AP costs between Fusion and Hailstorm close to each other.
Icebolt makes up a very small percent of Fusion damage, less than 20%. Adding Ice Mastery would then provide a small 2-3% damage boost at the cost of 154AP, which isn't really needed.
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gaurdian wrote on 2011-02-13 05:48
Quote from kingofrunes;332965:
Isn't that the purpose of a guide to help gain awareness of why something is better than the other?
Also can you take this into consideration?
For the Record there is also a 235 path which gives +36% Casting Speed at the cost of only 3 dura. Can you factor that in somehow or would it have very little factor in this?
Lassar Type Elemental Acceleration -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 2 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 3 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 4 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 4 = (70+30+35+50+50) = 235 -> (15+4+5+6+6) = 36%
I haven't looked into fusion much so it's guides like this that I look to for this information.
EDIT: I do realize it came out in G4 but I didn't give it any attention as it required 2 people to even consider pull it off which didn't fit in with my style so now that I can do it solo I'm looking into it now and didn't realize which Fusion Bolt was more powerful than others.
this guide was for magic users, and if u have used magic u would probably know
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takk wrote on 2011-02-13 14:36
Quote from Joker;333047:
Wheres Ice mastery for Bolt fusion fool.. you forgot it..
ITT: Retard calls OP a fool.
Thank you OP for your calculations.
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Omegatronic wrote on 2011-02-13 15:00
Quote from Justified;333109:
Actually Ice Mastery isn't in the Bolt Fusion calculations. I left it out for a couple reasons...
I wanted to keep the AP costs between Fusion and Hailstorm close to each other.
Icebolt makes up a very small percent of Fusion damage, less than 20%. Adding Ice Mastery would then provide a small 2-3% damage boost at the cost of 154AP, which isn't really needed.
The damage may not matter, since bolts win dmg/s anyway, but the mana reduction from the skill does. Matters enough to change your conclusions. ;-)
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gentrone wrote on 2011-02-13 17:57
Quote from Justified;333109:
Actually Ice Mastery isn't in the Bolt Fusion calculations. I left it out for a couple reasons...
I wanted to keep the AP costs between Fusion and Hailstorm close to each other.
Icebolt makes up a very small percent of Fusion damage, less than 20%. Adding Ice Mastery would then provide a small 2-3% damage boost at the cost of 154AP, which isn't really needed.
But Ice Mastery makes up a large percent of HS damage.
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-13 18:08
Quote from gentrone;334259:
But Ice Mastery makes up a large percent of HS damage.
Which is why it is added to HS.
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NotAnElf wrote on 2011-02-13 19:11
Quote from Omegatronic;334124:
The damage may not matter, since bolts win dmg/s anyway, but the mana reduction from the skill does. Matters enough to change your conclusions. ;-)
It would save 4 MP per full charge
That's not significant enough.
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Archibald wrote on 2011-02-15 16:04
Ok Yesterday I got rank 1 hailstorm. And I am here to invalidate the points made in this guide that argue bolt fusion is even close to hailstorm in terms of usefullness.
Yesterday I was fortunate to get 2 SCC elite missions. I had run a ghost of parthalon with my new r1 hailstorm and liked it alot and decided to put this to the test.
SCC Elite
Run 1: All Hailstorm - 10 mins got hit 1 time. 1 pet death
Run 2: All Bolt Fusions - 22 mins and 14 pet deaths
There is a little known secret to hailstorm that I had no idea about.
We all know that hailstorm does not ignore protection when calculating critical but based on my observations it does ignore a % of protection when calculating pure damage.
878 Int Master of Fireball title S3 Trinity Staff Rank novice Icemastery
Example 1: Average damage (based on 100 young brown mongooses outside quila) - 3364
Example 2: Average damage (based on 14 Silver Bone Fighters from SCC Elite) - 2783
Young Brown mongooses have 1 def 0 protection
Silver Bone Fighters in Shadow Cast City elite perhaps have 40 protection (since Hardmode has 27% and I never critted on them non trans with 85% critical, I did crit in trans with 107% crit, crits are not taken into calculation)
Splash damages is 100% and has a range of about 300. If you have tight groups this is great.
This by no means is a scientific test, and may yet be proven wrong, but there is something missing in hailstorms damage formula.
Sidenote: When I finish my critical set Hailstorm will probrably be my main magic skill along with fireball. Thats how useful I found it to be.
End Conclusion: Hailstorm is a mage version of smash and magnum combined. In terms of damage I was outdamaging our top giant on server (4kish) smashes by almost 50-75% in ghost of parthalon Elite.
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-15 17:34
I actually don't have Hailstorm yet, so I'm just arguing from reason here based on the facts.
I'll check out the numbers after I get Rank 1 (starting to rank it today), as well as Rank 1 Ice Mastery, but given the heavy 600 AP cost, I won't be able to do a formal test for about a month or so.
Although, it is possible that the SCC mobs just have a moderate Fire affinity, which would increase Hailstorm's damage while decreasing Fire Fusion's damage. I don't know if you'd call that a fair comparison, but it does have some weight when considering usefulness.
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Archibald wrote on 2011-02-15 18:20
Those are fair points. My point is that hailstorm is getting beat up by alot of people who do not have rank 1 or who are not mages. From a mage perspective Rank 1 hailstorm is good, rank 8 sucks (which is what most people who comment about how it sucks seem to have). I soloed Offering HM today using hailstorm and barrier spikes. The way the skill knocks back makes it more predictable than most other strong magics.
Positives of hailstorm for me:
1. Really good damage, like having rank 1 magnum with 800+ dex + good damage set.
2. Splash damage has no reduction, and splash range isn't bad.
3. If you have the critical even 1 charge of hail which is less than 1 second to cast can do 1k damage to a hardmode mob.
4. Excels at castle dungeons where they are mostly single aggro per type and the walls, also excells at SCC, offering, and all bosses that take magic damage
5. No mana loss when switching to cylinder/bow/melee weapons.
6. Doesn't miss like range.
7. Can shoot over barrier spikes.
8. Its a really good party skill. Others can't mess up combos or knockbacks.
Negatives of Hailstorm for me:
1. Heavy MP usage (g14 farms should solve this as a major issue)
2. Splash sometimes kills your barriers.
3. Mobility.
4. Need to use high critical enchants instead of mana enchants.
Anyways bolt fusion is very strong and very handy to have. And I am sure I will make lots of use for it. But as far as elite missions and hardmode ones hailstorm is superior killing skill.
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-15 20:28
Well I'm working on a critical Hebona Set that I'll be using for both Hailstorm and Bolt Fusion. I don't really care much for max MP unless I'm healing (I mostly only use Mana Shield only in trans) so the enchant swap isn't a big deal to me.
My current setup allows me to Crit on any mob in game, so Fusion still performs well even in Elite missions - I was able to OHKO in Ghost of the Partholon Elite.
I really don't see how (damage-wise) Hailstorm can compete with Fusion since it has a lower base damage and less damage multipliers. As you said, it shines with ease of use (there's less standby time and no evap), but I'm not convinced that it's stronger (per hit or over time) unless it really does have some kind of defense-piercing property. I'll have to look into that.
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Archibald wrote on 2011-02-15 21:05
I'm sure i've asked this before but...whats is your current enchant setup. I need about 27% more crit to get past the 130 mark...I want 150 with trinity eventually.
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Karmel wrote on 2011-02-15 21:38
How come you only listed fire mastery for bolt fusion and not ice?
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-15 23:05
Quote from Archibald;337037:
I'm sure i've asked this before but...whats is your current enchant setup. I need about 27% more crit to get past the 130 mark...I want 150 with trinity eventually.
Fearless Cornflower Accs
Round Hebona Circlet
Unstable Thief Clothing
Fearless Dignified Glove
Oasis Thief Shoe
Stiff Thief Wand + Stiff Thief Shield
Stiff Deadly Trinity Staff
Still hoping for Flame to go with my Round, and Elegant to go with Oasis, maybe Restore to go with my White Horse. Though I need to re-enchant Dignified and Oasis onto Hebona counterparts first. That gets me to around 115% Crit, and trans + Ophelia persona pushes me to like 150%.
Quote from Karmel;337064:
How come you only listed fire mastery for bolt fusion and not ice?
Post 15
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MSZShadow wrote on 2011-02-16 00:25
I may have missed something, but...
This is just with numbers and calculations (Hence, Case-Study. Lolterminology).
The real problem becomes, in actual practice. In either case, to do decent damage, you'll have to have something holding off enemies (Assuming you're already aggroed, otherwise, it makes little difference) while you charge the spells.
Fire-Ice Fusions is only really that great at the 5th charge, which you cannot spam. So every 5 hits, you need something to stall an enemy.
Hailstorm will do much more damage before you need a tank/distraction.
In either case, something simple like Adv Magic + Pet should buy you enough time to fully recast either, but Hailstorm will require less frequent tanking.
Also, keep in mind that Hailstorm has potential AoE 100% Damage, which will come in handy every now and then, effectively giving Hailstorm a slightly higher damage rate than the numbers say. Fire-Ice Fusion on the other hand, has no chance of AoE.
tl;dr: The one that's superior, in practice, is based on user skill and the situation in question (Ruling out elemental bonuses/penalties).
I personally like using the Staff in the first place. Maybe it has to do with some strange hidden function, but my damage is significantly increased with an upgraded staff, when compared to an upgraded wand. I also find myself seriously out-damaging fusion-users that I come across. Obviously, Hailstorm is the one for me.