Some ideas I had for making the characters' fighting styles more unique and balanced.

• foreignreign wrote on 2011-07-10 01:13
  Brace yourself, because I have a lot after all the mind-numbing trans runs I've done. But at least they're organized neatly for easy reading.
  
  General:
  

  
  
  • Make a transformation key and move it out of the freaking SP bar (like, make it the T key or something). It'll activate 1st stage trans, 2nd stage, and even the 2nd stage skills Fissure and Conviction.
    
  • Make all charge attacks (Gust Sting, Honeybee Sting, etc) effected by attack speed.
    
  • Make the Paladin's Grace: DEF and Grace: Perseverance skills have a secondary effect like the DK's Revelation: ATT and Revelation: Fury skill. Like extra HP or something.
    

  
  
  Lann:
  

  
  
  • Increase the distance of Gliding Fury
    
  • Increase the damage of Lightning Fury
    
  • After Furious Seven, if the last hit crits, let Lann use Gliding Fury.
    

  
  
  Sword Lann:
  

  
  
  • Instead of a Double Crescent after Nimble Dash, give him a "Triple Crescent." Reduce the stamina cost of Double Crescent by 5. Triple Crescent costs 25.
    
  • Make extra stabs of Thousand Needles increase the Lann's crit chance with the Thousand Needles swipe. With 5 stabs, Lann is guaranteed a Crit (even if he has 0 crit and a boss has 100 billion resistance).
    
  • Increase the distance of Slip and Nimble Dash.
    

  
  
  Spear Lann:
  

  
  
  • New skill that increases the distance, lowers stamina cost, and increases the chance of critting with the dodge roll.
    
  • While Fury Infusion is active, when you get a Gliding Fury, you can always Lightning Fury even if you don't crit with the Gliding.
    
  • Reduce the cost of Moonsplitter so that successive hits of Moonsplitter are actually full Moonsplitters (not this half of a splitter is 14 stamina crap).
    
  • Give a skill for Hurricane 3960 (or whatever it's called).
    

  
  
  
  Fiona:
  

  
  
  • Remove Heavy Stander Counter and replace it with Heavy Stander "Deflection." Instead of using the move after HSing, you use it before a smash and it keeps Fiona's relative position (ie: no knockback) but does no damage. Costs ~10 stamina to use (on top of HS's stamina cost). Window for the skill would be short (maybe equal to the length of Slip Dash at most). The skill could also maybe put her into a position like Perfect Guard does (although I think even just letting Fiona Blossom Blow/Orchid Strike after a deflection would be more than enough).
    
  • Give Fiona an actual running charge skill that looks like the Heavy Stander Counter run. Can be activated by hitting Guard then the down direction. Runs faster than regular sprinting but costs 1.5~2x as much stamina. Also, add a new combo that Fiona can use out of this charge, like a running charge -> R and running charge -> LR combo, and let her use her SP: Shield Charge straight out of her running charge after running a certain distance (without the initial "cast" animation of her raising her shield). Make it so that if Fiona does SP: Shield Charge this way, the damage is increased.
    
  • Make Shield Bash a small shield-only skill.
    
  • Give a new SP skill for large shields that'll allow Fiona to block any attack and she also won't be moved back by anything while in Heavy Stander. Make it wear off after x amounts of hits blocked with HS.
    

  
  
  Hammer Fiona:
  

  
  
  • Limit Butterfly Swing to 3~5 swings. Make the damage of each successive swing diminish instead of a static number (ie: if first hit is ~.2 percentile, then next is .17, third is .14 etc.)
    
  • Make a fully charged Stigma deal much more knockdown.
    

  
  
  Sword Fiona:
  

  
  
  • Move the Ivy Sweep Kick to after Amaranth Kick instead. Increase the damage of the Ivy Sweep kick and maybe lower the damage of Amaranth Kick.
    
  • Remove the shield bash from Ivy Sweep, increase the damage of the sword slice, and add a second sword slice.
    

  
  
  Evie:
  

  
  
  • Make DOT effects deal direct damage to Evie's HP.
    

  
  
  Scythe Evie:
  

  
  
  • Turn LR/LRR into a full-length combo, like LRRRR. Make each hit a physical smash. Allow Life Drain to be used after any smash in the combo, but it finishes the combo.
    
  • Make Mark of Death do what its in-game description implies: when a monster has Mark of Death on them, they'll take extra damage from smashes (only physical smashes and Bloody Thread though). Make enemies deal more damage while it's active though, and possibly lower the snap damage of Mark of Death.
    
  • Allow a scythe Evie to have both Mark of Death and Bloody Thread active, but snapping to activate Bloody Thread will also activate Mark of Death.
    

  
  
  Staff Evie:
  

  
  
  • Add more spells.
    
  • Lower all her spell damage a bit.
    
  • Allow a staff Evie to commandeer a Healing Corona: when one stands near a corona, she can directly heal allies by targeting them and hitting E (kinda like the old heal). When healed this way, players don't get Mana Zeal placed on them. A staff Evie can even use other staff Evie's coronas to heal this way.
    
  • When Mana Amber breaks, put a debuff on Evie that makes it so she can't Mana Amber again for some duration.
    

  
  
  Karok:
  

  
  
  • Limit Warslam to 3~5 slams. Make the damage of each successive swing diminish instead of a static number.
    
  • Make it so that Karok's roll doesn't activate Absorb Shock (actually not sure on this one).
    

  
  
  
  I'd maybe have more for Karok if I actually played him. I'd post my reasoning behind all them too but that would make this post even longer.
• Alexane wrote on 2011-07-10 01:18
  Limit Butterfly Swing to 3~5 swings. Make the damage of each successive swing diminish instead of a static number (ie: if first hit is ~.2 percentile, then next is .17, third is .14 etc.)
  
  
  umm........the hammer revamp powered up butterfly.....why would they nerf what they just powered up?
• Cathaoir wrote on 2011-07-10 02:07

  Quote from foreignreign;506302:

  
  Karok:
  

  
  
  • Limit Warslam to 3~5 slams. Make the damage of each successive swing diminish instead of a static number.
    
  • Make it so that Karok's roll doesn't activate Absorb Shock (actually not sure on this one).
    

  
  
  
  I'd maybe have more for Karok if I actually played him. I'd post my reasoning behind all them too but that would make this post even longer.

  
  
  They're already nerfing his roll to make it have less frames for absorb shock. It wouldn't make sense to completely take it away, as rolling is his evasive move. So either make it so that he doesn't damage in his roll and give invincibility frames instead, or have absorb shock activate. Absorb shock activates on a roll because his "roll" also damages. Because his roll damages, it is technically an attack. Absorb shock activates when a Karok's attack hits at the same exact time as his opponent's.
  
  As for Warslam, it is a heavy stamina eater. It's stupid to continually spam Warslam because then you'll end up eating up all your stamina, then you wont be able to roll away to evade an attack. So really, having no limit to Warslam is more of a penalty, cause someone who doesn't know how to properly use it will end up getting themselves killed.
• Kollin wrote on 2011-07-10 02:19
  i say let the proffesionals who designed the game come up with nerfs/buffs. no offense.
• Hexed wrote on 2011-07-10 02:33
  Staff Evie:
  •Add more spells. I agree with this.
  •Lower all her spell damage a bit. No thank you.
  •Allow a staff Evie to commandeer a Healing Corona: when one stands near a corona, she can directly heal allies by targeting them and hitting E (kinda like the old heal). When healed this way, players don't get Mana Zeal placed on them. A staff Evie can even use other staff Evie's coronas to heal this way. No, because then we would end up becoming a completely support class again, and we would be made to stay out of battle and command the corona.
  •When Mana Amber breaks, put a debuff on Evie that makes it so she can't Mana Amber again for some duration. Unless you mean a really short time, as in like lower than 5 seconds, i dont agree with this. We would be screwed over in something like a Titan run (except for the extreme evies who can do this without amber at all.) But the general population of evies wouldn't be able to handle this. Might as well put a cooldown on heavy stander, guard, slip dash etc. too. Besides, as Alexane said, they just gave a survival tool to a class that desperately needed one, with our low hp, low defense, and our limit to cloth armor, why would they nerf it?
• Hexed wrote on 2011-07-10 02:41

  Quote from Kollin;506360:

  i say let the proffesionals who designed the game come up with nerfs/buffs. no offense.

  
  
  I agree with this. I dont mean to disrespect the hard work you put into coming up with these, and some of them i couldnt agree more with, but some of them (like the corona idea.) would reverse the work done to make the game better.
• Hushield wrote on 2011-07-10 02:49
  I don't know, but if all of the changes were implemented without anything else put in or removed, the game would be even more imbalanced.
• foreignreign wrote on 2011-07-10 02:52

  Quote from Kollin;506360:

  i say let the proffesionals who designed the game come up with nerfs/buffs. no offense.

  
  
  Thanks for stating the obvious?
  
  

  Quote from Alexane;506303:

  umm........the hammer revamp powered up butterfly.....why would they nerf what they just powered up?

  
  
  Because it's ridiculous and had no real thought put into it and it invades Lann's niche?
  
  
  

  Quote from Cathaoir;506348:

  They're already nerfing his roll to make it have less frames for absorb shock. It wouldn't make sense to completely take it away, as rolling is his evasive move. So either make it so that he doesn't damage in his roll and give invincibility frames instead, or have absorb shock activate. Absorb shock activates on a roll because his "roll" also damages. Because his roll damages, it is technically an attack. Absorb shock activates when a Karok's attack hits at the same exact time as his opponent's.

  
  
  We already have the roll nerf and it's still ridiculous. Karok's playstyle seems to be a "keep on attacking" kind of thing, and yet they give Karok the most overpowered dodge move in the game:
  
  It's better than Slip by miles since it doesn't require the full stamina cost to be executed (ie: you can use it at 1 stamina, whereas with Slip you can't) and when the Absorb Shock procs, that technically counts as a hit so the same hit won't be able to hit you again should it last for awhile (think Thor's lightning charge). The windows are just about the same in length, too. Multi-hit combos aren't necessarily a problem either, since Karok can absorb several hits with just one Absorb Shock proc.
  
  It's better than Guard/Heavy Stander since it cancels out all of Karok's moves and takes less stamina, and disregards hit types.
  
  It's better than Blink since it has less stamina cost and again, Blink can't be used when you have less than 33 stamina.
  
  Flying Sparrow is an iffy dodge, and Karok's roll is better than Mana Amber since Karok is left in a position where he can keep on attacking immediately after the roll, and again, stamina cost.
  
  Not even going to bother with Spear Lann's roll.
  
  

  As for Warslam, it is a heavy stamina eater. It's stupid to continually spam Warslam because then you'll end up eating up all your stamina, then you wont be able to roll away to evade an attack. So really, having no limit to Warslam is more of a penalty, cause someone who doesn't know how to properly use it will end up getting themselves killed.

  
  
  I actually don't have much experience on Warslam, I just know that the "spin2win" type combos should stay with Lann either way.
  
  
  

  Quote from r4baloons;506366:

  Unless you mean a really short time, as in like 5 seconds, i dont agree with this. We would be screwed over in something like a Titan run (except for the extreme evies who can do this without amber at all.) But the general population of evies wouldn't be able to handle this. Might as well put a cooldown on heavy stander, guard, slip dash etc. too.

  
  
  Whether or not the "general population of evies" can't deal with it isn't a problem. The general populace of the Lanns can't deal with Slip Dash's somewhat small invincibility frames and yet the invincibility frames are fine the way they are (there are still tons of Lanns who can't properly Slip Thor's AoE lightning even though that's so easy to do). There needs to be some kind of penalty to the skill, since getting flung around isn't a real penalty, it being able to be broken doesn't matter 90% of the time, and it requires absolutely no skill to use. Heavy Stander doesn't require skill to use either, but at least your shield can break (requiring you to actually do something to fix it), or it eats a ridiculous amount of stamina (with small shields) and doesn't necessarily save you anyway.
• Kollin wrote on 2011-07-10 02:56

  Quote from foreignreign;506384:

  Thanks for stating the obvious?
  
  
  
  Because it's ridiculous and had no real thought put into it and it invades Lann's niche?
  
  
  
  
  We already have the roll nerf and it's still ridiculous. Karok's playstyle seems to be a "keep on attacking" kind of thing, and yet they give Karok the most overpowered dodge move in the game:
  
  It's better than Slip by miles since it doesn't require the full stamina cost to be executed (ie: you can use it at 1 stamina, whereas with Slip you can't) and when the Absorb Shock procs, that technically counts as a hit so the same hit won't be able to hit you again should it last for awhile (think Thor's lightning charge). The windows are just about the same in length, too. Multi-hit combos aren't necessarily a problem either, since Karok can absorb several hits with just one Absorb Shock proc.
  
  It's better than Guard/Heavy Stander since it cancels out all of Karok's moves and takes less stamina, and disregards hit types.
  
  It's better than Blink since it has less stamina cost and again, Blink can't be used when you have less than 33 stamina.
  
  Flying Sparrow is an iffy dodge, and Karok's roll is better than Mana Amber since Karok is left in a position where he can keep on attacking immediately after the roll, and again, stamina cost.
  
  Not even going to bother with Spear Lann's roll.
  
  
  
  I actually don't have much experience on Warslam, I just know that the "spin2win" type combos should stay with Lann either way.
  
  
  
  
  Whether or not the "general population of evies" can't deal with it isn't a problem. The general populace of the Lanns can't deal with Slip Dash's somewhat small invincibility frames and yet the invincibility frames are fine the way they are (there are still tons of Lanns who can't properly Slip Thor's AoE lightning even though that's so easy to do). There needs to be some kind of penalty to the skill, since getting flung around isn't a real penalty, it being able to be broken doesn't matter 90% of the time, and it requires absolutely no skill to use. Heavy Stander doesn't require skill to use either, but at least your shield can break (requiring you to actually do something to fix it), or it eats a ridiculous amount of stamina (with small shields) and doesn't necessarily save you anyway.

  
  
  after reading all this and rereading your first post, i can definatly tell you are a Lann. you are mad because so far ALL the other characters outperform you. this thread is nothing more than a rage thread because you cant properly play your class.
• foreignreign wrote on 2011-07-10 02:57

  Quote from Kollin;506388:

  after reading all this and rereading your first post, i can definatly tell you are a Lann. you are mad because so far ALL the other characters outperform you. this thread is nothing more than a rage thread because you cant properly play your class.

  
  
  My main is a 70 hammer Fiona.
  
  Try again.
• Kollin wrote on 2011-07-10 03:01

  Quote from foreignreign;506390:

  My main is a 70 hammer Fiona.
  
  Try again.

  
  
  the answer isnt to nerf the other characters. Lann has always been flat on his back since the day vindy came up while the other characters left him in the dust. he needs a reworking, not the others, they play as they were supposed to. just like staff evie before revamp, he sucks. however if her revamp is of any indication, Lann will be getting one. they are already working to improve spear Lann dodge roll, and they are adding new attacks for sword. a general buff for Lann is the only thing this game needs to be rebalanced. implementing your "ideas" will only serve to imbalance it further.
• foreignreign wrote on 2011-07-10 03:11

  Quote from Kollin;506395:

  the answer isnt to nerf the other characters.

  
  
  The only character that my first post blatantly nerfs is Karok.
  
  

  Quote from Kollin;506395:

  Lann has always been flat on his back since the day vindy came up while the other characters left him in the dust.

  
  
  Uuuuh, what? I'm not sure how to respond to this statement.
  
  

  he needs a reworking, not the others, they play as they were supposed to.

  
  
  That's a loaded statement. Staff Evie played like she was supposed to when she first came out. And yet she got a revamp. Sword Fiona plays like she's supposed to be but she's terrible in the DPS department and even though she may be the only one to never die, she will still get out-damaged anyway. All the characters play the way they're supposed to. Be more specific.
  
  

  just like staff evie before revamp, he sucks.

  
  
  Actually, technically he doesn't by comparison. Sword Fiona sucks. Spear Lann can still net the highest damage if everyone is fighting at a level playing field. Sword Lann is OK and around scythe Evie levels of damage.
  
  

  however if her revamp is of any indication, Lann will be getting one. they are already working to improve spear Lann dodge roll, and they are adding new attacks for sword.

  
  
  OK? I'm posting suggestions I'd like to see to make Lann better. This is a discussion board after all. I don't get this statement.
  
  

  a general buff for Lann is the only thing this game needs to be rebalanced.

  
  
  No, staff Evie is unanimously ridiculously strong and Korea is actually nerfing her soon. Hell, in Korea, there's talk that you pretty much need staff Evies in the latest raid bosses just because of how ridiculous they are. That's right; you need staff Evies, not Fionas (the class everyone hails as being the "survivors").
  
  

  implementing your "ideas" will only serve to imbalance it further.

  
  
  What makes you say this? Because what I'm suggesting makes the game play differently? You've yet to substantiate this claim at all.
• Cathaoir wrote on 2011-07-10 04:07

  Quote from foreignreign;506384:

  
  We already have the roll nerf and it's still ridiculous. Karok's playstyle seems to be a "keep on attacking" kind of thing, and yet they give Karok the most overpowered dodge move in the game

  
  
  That's how he's supposed to be. He's a character that's supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with the boss(i.e. boss bash and clash).
  
  

  It's better than Slip by miles since it doesn't require the full stamina cost to be executed (ie: you can use it at 1 stamina, whereas with Slip you can't) and when the Absorb Shock procs, that technically counts as a hit so the same hit won't be able to hit you again should it last for awhile (think Thor's lightning charge). The windows are just about the same in length, too. Multi-hit combos aren't necessarily a problem either, since Karok can absorb several hits with just one Absorb Shock proc.

  
  
  You obviously haven't played Karok much. I can tell you that Thor's attacks still end up hitting him after a roll. I know from experience. Also, if a Karok loses all of his stam, then he would be crippled. Any multi-hit boss would end up killing a Karok anyways(or at least badly injuring) after a single roll. It's not as "overpowered" as you say it is. Take your Karok to Rocheste boats, then come back and talk about how "overpowered" his rolls are.
  
  The one of the only multi-hit attacks I am able to absorb fully would be Ingkara's close ranged attack where there's the shadow circle in front of him.
  
  

  It's better than Guard/Heavy Stander since it cancels out all of Karok's moves and takes less stamina, and disregards hit types.
  
  It's better than Blink since it has less stamina cost and again, Blink can't be used when you have less than 33 stamina.

  
  
  You can't spam roll either. Also, Karok has frames during a roll where he's left vulnerable and he cannot attack at all.
  
  

  Flying Sparrow is an iffy dodge, and Karok's roll is better than Mana Amber since Karok is left in a position where he can keep on attacking immediately after the roll, and again, stamina cost.

  
  
  I would take mana amber over a roll. Again, the whole roll isn't ASable frames.
  
  

  Not even going to bother with Spear Lann's roll.

  
  
  Every single "dodge" is better than spear Lann's roll. This point is pretty much invalid.
  
  

  I actually don't have much experience on Warslam, I just know that the "spin2win" type combos should stay with Lann either way.

  
  
  Like I said, someone who spams Warslam is just asking to get hit. Absorb Shock is almost impossible with each hit. Also, the initial slam is sluggish and very open. LLRR is a much, much better combo than Warslam spamming.
• Oizen wrote on 2011-07-10 04:21
  Uh...
  
  How would a Triple Crescent even work?
• foreignreign wrote on 2011-07-10 04:47

  Quote from OizenX;506486:

  Uh...
  
  How would a Triple Crescent even work?

  
  
  3 slices instead of just 2?