This game going down hill or what?

• xJac wrote on 2011-10-12 17:16
  oh, my bad, hoarfrost depth.
• whocares8128 wrote on 2011-10-12 17:22

  Quote from xJac;617339:

  oh, my bad, hoarfrost depth.

  
  
  
  LOL, I'd hoped that's what you meant.
  :thumb:
• Oizen wrote on 2011-10-12 18:38

  Quote from Invertex;617125:

  I'm not exactly sure making Lann easier is the best way to balance him. It'd be the best way with the mindset of most of the community, but I'd rather just see some improved damage precentiles. We've already seen how much changing repeated Butterfly's perecentiles changed everyone's views on Hammer Fiona.

  
  
  Lann's damage is fine.
  
  He needs survivability. Right now its 100% skill with Slip dash.
• TLCBonaparte wrote on 2011-10-12 19:28
  Why is it Lann is always UP, he was before I stop playing 3 months ago, and still is now -_-
• sakraycore wrote on 2011-10-12 20:13
  What do you mean, staff evie was UP for the longest time.
• TLCBonaparte wrote on 2011-10-12 20:22

  Quote from sakraycore;617529:

  What do you mean, staff evie was UP for the longest time.

  
  
  You mean before the revamp? Well maybe, but still Evie could always go Scythe, but Lann as it is sucks either way.
• whocares8128 wrote on 2011-10-12 20:57

  Quote from TLCBonaparte;617537:

  You mean before the revamp? Well maybe, but still Evie could always go Scythe, but Lann as it is sucks either way.

  
  
  I know too many people who really like playing their Lann to believe this talk. Also, this deserves to be quoted:
  

  Quote from xJac;617267:

  I used to think Lann is underpowered. But the more I play, and the more good/skilled players I meet (never met a pro, only seen them on video), I realized that I am only thinking Lann is underpowered because I have never really used him to full potential.
  
  Have you ever seen raidhunter complain about Lann being underpowered? Have you ever seen Mr.Papa (back when he still plays) complains Lann being underpowered? Have you actually seen any of the skilled players (doesn't matter they play Lann or not) talk about Lann being underpowered?
  
  Lann is not underpowered, he takes a lot skill to master, but that should be very well known when you picked the class, take it to your heart.

  
  
  Honestly, hearing all this talk about Lann sucking so much makes me actually want to level up a Lann and prove that it's not Lann that sucks, but rather the people playing him.
• sakraycore wrote on 2011-10-12 21:32
  Come EP9 Lann with 9k+ DEF will be able to spin2win again. People in KR are complaining about Lanns being OP
• Yanm wrote on 2011-10-12 21:57

  Quote from sakraycore;617671:

  Come EP9 Lann with 9k+ DEF will be able to spin2win again. People in KR are complaining about Lanns being OP

  
  
  Oh? Do you have a link or something? I want to see this. Also, I don't think Lann sucks. I enjoy the challenge he provides. I consider myself to be a decent Lann, that's hindered by a bad graphics card (The kind of graphics lag where, you don't see the full animation for GF/LF at times, where when you're knocked down, you're on your feet in a second, the kind where double crescent hits 4 times instead of 2). Once I get my new computer next Monday, I plan to prove to people that Lann's don't suck. All they need to do is practice on the raid bosses more. If they lag, then they have an excuse in my opinion, but if they don't, I don't see why they die a lot (Unless it's Thor. That's understandable when he rages).
• MareneCorp wrote on 2011-10-12 22:32

  Quote from whocares8128;617616:

  Honestly, hearing all this talk about Lann sucking so much makes me actually want to level up a Lann and prove that it's not Lann that sucks, but rather the people playing him.

  
  
  Which is the point me and others are trying to say, but it is also Lann's stats, etc, that make him more difficult. It doesn't take as much training to make a double tap on the space bar (Evie Amber) as it takes for training to know, first of all, where to dash.
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]The beginning and end of a slip dash are the MOST vulnerable spots, and if glas swings his sword straight down in front and you dash forward with your body still in the sword AOE, you still get hit, amber pretty much either shatters or knocks you a pretty far distance off.
  So you need to be able to know how to read, ALL of the raid boss movements, unless converted to second nature.[/SPOILER]
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]Then, already talked about and easy to use, WHEN to dodge. Still pretty complex about when to dodge too, because it doesn't hold off like amber, but, taking glas for example again. When glas sticks a sword straight down into the ground and brings the other back, hence, making the "sweep", there's always a delay time.
  If it were any, let us say normal? Lann, they would dodge immediately after the first sword was thrust into the ground, and be left vulnerable for the second slash. So, timing and patience are key things in a Lann player.[/SPOILER]
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]Another thing, choosing IF and WHEN to use DC. Everyone says, "OH, USE DC USE DC AND YOU AUTOWIN, DUHH NOOB" well obviously if you're spamming DC, it's good SP, but if you use it during like, glas' 5 hit combo, you will be caught in it. Also, glas' grab is UNFORGIVABLE.
  I was DC'ing behind his leg once, and he still grabbed me, so knowing when exactly to place a DC, not just spamming it, is something MOST people don't understand.[/SPOILER]
  
  Sorry for long read, broken down into sections 1) Where to slip dash 2) When to slip dash 3) If and When to DC
  
  Well, now that I look, this is a mini-Lann guide.
  
  Yes, Lann is the worst class in pretty much all aspects now.
• TLCBonaparte wrote on 2011-10-12 22:47

  Quote from whocares8128;617616:

  I know too many people who really like playing their Lann to believe this talk. Also, this deserves to be quoted:
  
  
  Honestly, hearing all this talk about Lann sucking so much makes me actually want to level up a Lann and prove that it's not Lann that sucks, but rather the people playing him.

  
  
  
  Yeah, but look at it another way. If most people are unskilled and make Lann suck, and 80% of those people also play another class in Vind but are doing good... Then compare to those classes where average players can do good at, Lann is a worse choice. Of course you CAN say what if we set the good standard at GOOD Lann players? But like you said majority of Lann players are not good, that makes the dominate weighted average shift toward average bad Lann, and you will still end up with Lann is a worse class than the rest.
• xJac wrote on 2011-10-13 05:03
  I don't know for you guys, but personally the high skill requirement on Lann is one of the only two reason I am still playing Vindictus, another being friends.
  
  The fact that I know there's still plenty of boss presenting a challenge for me kept me playing, else I would have quit the game long time ago basing on how crappy the management is. And I would like the game to keep it that way, else it just becomes another traditional mmorpg, with the ability to slash through monsters.
  
  
  Also, the only two class that I see takes really little effort is Karok and Staff. Fiona and scythe still requires a lot of practice to be good at, it's not just Lann.
  
  Sure, Fiona can stay behind a shield all day, but did you even notice their combo percentile? All of the "big" percentile requires a long combo to pull off, and you can't always pull off a long combo because the boss would have killed you. A Fiona not blocking damage with their shield is just like a Lann not dodging, they both die, period. Scythe, on the other hand, has a really good mana shield. They also have aids like mana pistols, golem, or wisp. But did you even notice that they have no passive stamina recovery? Or did you notice that all of her actions requires huge chunks of stamina? (blink, snap while moving) You can't really go all offensive when your stamina is pulling you back, can you? The aids might be good distraction while she needs to drink a hp potion fast, or revive someone, but it's not going to keep the boss' attention all the time. (Not mentioning having multiple aggro can really kill you if the aids' moving around too fast)
  
  Now, take a good look at staff evie. Know the reason why she's so easy for newb? It's because her range advantage, and the fact all of her focus spell is high burst damage skill. What's drawing her back, then? The CD is. Unfortunately, on intense boss fight, like glas or any other raid, high burst damage skill fits in perfectly. Cool down issue is easily resolved by dodging boss attack for a while after attacking, making staff the best dps class in these situation.
  But it has been this way ever since. Staff, even before revamp, was really good in dpsing against raid boss like red tyrant. You dodge, then firebolt, magic arrow a bit, then dodge again, this was true back when her percentile were lower.
  But there's one thing, staff's mob clearing ability just suck. It sucked before, it still sucks. You have one ice blast that's reliable to freeze monsters, but that's close range, how about those two artillery goblins standing pretty far away? Ice spear targets one enemy, two if they are in a line, magic arrow simply takes too long, fire bolt misses a lot if mob moves around instead of going straight at you. Trying to focus you will get hit, trying to spam magic arrow you will get hit too. You literally have to run to this monster, magic arrow a few times, hop away before the long range attack hits you, or flying sparrow, but the damage percentile on that is pitiful low. Look at lann, sprint smash ->GF->LF through all of it, sword can also pummel storm/dc to dodge attack, spear can just hurricane all of them. Who's underpowered now?
  
  Fiona, do I need to mention that their mob clearing also sucks? They might be able to survive a whole boss fight, but the question really is, is she contributing anything from surviving? Obviously if you play turtle, you probably can finish the boss with those SP gained from blocking. But is the time worth it? And if you picked Lann, you obviously want to finish things fast, so turtle is not an option.
  
  Karok, well, slow ****, just way too slow. Even going all out on a boss, his damage sucks, his mob clearing also sucks, not very big AoE, and slow. It takes those skilled player to be in top damage, those that can stick next to the boss without getting hit. But I think we can all agreed that a skilled player makes any class to be in top damage. (now i talk about it, seems like staff is the only easy top damage class)
  
  Look at lann, even some spin2die can make it to top damage, doesn't that tell you something? Give me another class, that dies a lot, and still can make it to top damage. I can't think of any, not even staff.
  
  You picked Lann because you wanted damage, well, you did have it, but you need to put in the effort for surviving.
  but same could be said for other classes, just different area.
  Karok solobility and tankability best, but suffer slower attack and lower dps.
  Fiona survivability best, but requires a lot knowledge on attacks and suffer slower combos.
  Staff long range high burst damage, but suffer lower solo-ability and little mobility.
  Scythe high snap damage and attack speed buff, but suffer high stamina and long combos.
  
  
  By the way, I don't believe that any good player in any class will become a lesser player while playing lann. Most likely that person isn't a good player to begin with. (I play both Evie and Lann, and I perform equally the same on both character.) Evie takes the littlest effort to be good at, but that doesn't mean Evie doesn't need any effort to be good at.
• whocares8128 wrote on 2011-10-13 16:17

  Quote from TLCBonaparte;617800:

  But like you said majority of Lann players are not good...

  
  Actually, I didn't say that. I'm simply stating that when you see a Lann playing badly, it's the player, not the class. The impression people have about Lann is from the bad players they've seen.
  
  Perhaps Lann attracts more bad players than other classes. I know I've seen more solo videos of Lann than any other class, and for what it's worth, they're generally more entertaining to watch than some Fiona blocking every attack like a robot.
  
  Spear Lann in particular has that endless (or until your stamina runs out) spinning attack. He's had that since the beginning as a sort of exclusive. Were Hammer Fiona's Butterfly (in a continuous loop) as damaging back in the beginning as it is now, I wonder how much we'd hear about fail Fionas.
  
  Also, while this has nothing to do with being a bad player, Lann is also the class that is most susceptible to lag. This surely helps contribute to people's negative perception of him.
• MareneCorp wrote on 2011-10-13 23:29

  Quote from whocares8128;618944:

  Also, while this has nothing to do with being a bad player, Lann is also the class that is most susceptible to lag. This surely helps contribute to people's negative perception of him.

  
  
  Oh god, the loading animations... Dx And @xJac, Staff's Magic Arrow has SUPERIOR range compared to a completely straight and forward slip dash, DC, then GF, and LF barely passes the end of a magic arrow.
• Yanm wrote on 2011-10-14 01:47

  Quote from xJac;618460:

  I don't know for you guys, but personally the high skill requirement on Lann is one of the only two reason I am still playing Vindictus, another being friends.
  
  The fact that I know there's still plenty of boss presenting a challenge for me kept me playing, else I would have quit the game long time ago basing on how crappy the management is. And I would like the game to keep it that way, else it just becomes another traditional mmorpg, with the ability to slash through monsters.
  
  
  Also, the only two class that I see takes really little effort is Karok and Staff. Fiona and scythe still requires a lot of practice to be good at, it's not just Lann.
  
  Sure, Fiona can stay behind a shield all day, but did you even notice their combo percentile? All of the "big" percentile requires a long combo to pull off, and you can't always pull off a long combo because the boss would have killed you. A Fiona not blocking damage with their shield is just like a Lann not dodging, they both die, period. Scythe, on the other hand, has a really good mana shield. They also have aids like mana pistols, golem, or wisp. But did you even notice that they have no passive stamina recovery? Or did you notice that all of her actions requires huge chunks of stamina? (blink, snap while moving) You can't really go all offensive when your stamina is pulling you back, can you? The aids might be good distraction while she needs to drink a hp potion fast, or revive someone, but it's not going to keep the boss' attention all the time. (Not mentioning having multiple aggro can really kill you if the aids' moving around too fast)
  
  Now, take a good look at staff evie. Know the reason why she's so easy for newb? It's because her range advantage, and the fact all of her focus spell is high burst damage skill. What's drawing her back, then? The CD is. Unfortunately, on intense boss fight, like glas or any other raid, high burst damage skill fits in perfectly. Cool down issue is easily resolved by dodging boss attack for a while after attacking, making staff the best dps class in these situation.
  But it has been this way ever since. Staff, even before revamp, was really good in dpsing against raid boss like red tyrant. You dodge, then firebolt, magic arrow a bit, then dodge again, this was true back when her percentile were lower.
  But there's one thing, staff's mob clearing ability just suck. It sucked before, it still sucks. You have one ice blast that's reliable to freeze monsters, but that's close range, how about those two artillery goblins standing pretty far away? Ice spear targets one enemy, two if they are in a line, magic arrow simply takes too long, fire bolt misses a lot if mob moves around instead of going straight at you. Trying to focus you will get hit, trying to spam magic arrow you will get hit too. You literally have to run to this monster, magic arrow a few times, hop away before the long range attack hits you, or flying sparrow, but the damage percentile on that is pitiful low. Look at lann, sprint smash ->GF->LF through all of it, sword can also pummel storm/dc to dodge attack, spear can just hurricane all of them. Who's underpowered now?
  
  Fiona, do I need to mention that their mob clearing also sucks? They might be able to survive a whole boss fight, but the question really is, is she contributing anything from surviving? Obviously if you play turtle, you probably can finish the boss with those SP gained from blocking. But is the time worth it? And if you picked Lann, you obviously want to finish things fast, so turtle is not an option.
  
  Karok, well, slow ****, just way too slow. Even going all out on a boss, his damage sucks, his mob clearing also sucks, not very big AoE, and slow. It takes those skilled player to be in top damage, those that can stick next to the boss without getting hit. But I think we can all agreed that a skilled player makes any class to be in top damage. (now i talk about it, seems like staff is the only easy top damage class)
  
  Look at lann, even some spin2die can make it to top damage, doesn't that tell you something? Give me another class, that dies a lot, and still can make it to top damage. I can't think of any, not even staff.
  
  You picked Lann because you wanted damage, well, you did have it, but you need to put in the effort for surviving.
  but same could be said for other classes, just different area.
  Karok solobility and tankability best, but suffer slower attack and lower dps.
  Fiona survivability best, but requires a lot knowledge on attacks and suffer slower combos.
  Staff long range high burst damage, but suffer lower solo-ability and little mobility.
  Scythe high snap damage and attack speed buff, but suffer high stamina and long combos.
  
  
  By the way, I don't believe that any good player in any class will become a lesser player while playing lann. Most likely that person isn't a good player to begin with. (I play both Evie and Lann, and I perform equally the same on both character.) Evie takes the littlest effort to be good at, but that doesn't mean Evie doesn't need any effort to be good at.

  
  
  Well said Jac. There are some points I must disagree with however.
  
  Fiona I'd say is the 2nd best after Lann for clearing trash mobs. Counterattack does wonderful against them, the ones that do smashes. Ivy Sweep, Butterfly, AK clear them easily. On Hero Mode? Fiona is invaluable simply because one counterattack knocks down every titled hero trash mob except for stoneskins; they'll probably require 2 counterattacks to fall down. I also did the Revenge Hard Macha challenge you posted. I. . . well, I'm a maxed out Lann pretty much, so I guess that's why it was so. . .easy. I want to see the players that can't complete that, those that don't lag or whatever. Personally, I think that's too easy of a challenge. I'd say. . . Trampled Plains Hard Macha would be good. Too much? Then how about Prepare for Counterattack Hard Macha. Or. . .did you mean Hero Macha Revenge by chance?