Sexuality: Choice or Natural?

• Episkey wrote on 2012-01-28 05:43

  Quote from Chiyuri;751562:

  It's possible to overtime change a preference.. but more than often, that change isn't forced by the will of the person in question or even less by other people.. The same apply to sexuality.

  
  
  Sure. I can partially agree with that. I never said it would be easy, but I am only stating the possibility.
  But in the end, it's the person who does the changing. If not by others, how can that said person change?
  
  Also, by that very same logic, Cynic telling me to pursue the homosexual lifestyle would be difficult to do.
• Chihaya wrote on 2012-01-28 05:46

  Quote from Cynic;751510:

  The only choice involved in sexuality is whether or not you want to deny it.
  
  Everything else is out of our hands, and that is a proven fact.

  
  
  Basically what I wanted to say
• Cynic wrote on 2012-01-28 05:47
  I'm not telling you to change for the sake of it, I'm trying to prove a point. That you cannot change who you are on a whim. Sure, I imagine you can probably change someone if you damage them enough physically and psychologically, but that would take so much effort that it isn't even funny. And even then, all you've really done is repress their actual sexuality and replace it with the notion that they are something else.
  
  Like I said; yes, you can choose to live a certain life-style. But that doesn't magically make you that sexuality. I could try and be fully gay if I wanted to; I could date and sleep with men. But that wouldn't be me, no matter how hard I tried.
  
  Another example; just because someone lives with cats doesn't mean they like them. Just because a person lives in a forest doesn't mean they like forests.
  
  You seem to associate lifestyle and sexuality as a whole, when they can be completely the same, or completely different.
  
  What all affects our sexuality? It varies. But what is true about sexuality? Once it's set, it cannot be changed.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-01-28 05:48

  Quote from Episkey;751569:

  Sure. I can partially agree with that. I never said it would be easy, but I am only stating the possibility.
  But in the end, it's the person who does the changing. If not by others, how can that said person change?
  
  Also, by that very same logic, Cynic telling me to pursue the homosexual lifestyle would be difficult to do.

  
  
  It's not a matter of been easy or not.. it's not something you can force to happen to begin with. Forcing an individual to change a preference is 99,9999991% harmful for the said individual. It's harmful on the psychological end, it will often backfire or even break an individual.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-01-28 06:00

  Quote from Cynic;751566:

  You don't want to, or you can't? There is a significant difference between the two.
  
  Lifestyle =/= who you are. You can easily pretend to be straight, but that doesn't mean you are straight. The same thing goes with being homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc etc.
  
  If sexuality could be changed so easily, do you really think people would choose to be gay? Even knowing they'd have a chance of being beaten? Killed? Have their rights denied just because a book says it's right? I'm sorry, but nobody would choose such a thing if it really were a choice.

  
  
  Both. I can't pursue homosexuality because I have a moral obligation to myself and God and I don't want to because ... well I don't want to! We will just leave it at that, okay?

  [Image: http://www.laymark.com/l/o/82.gif]

  
  
  
  Okay, so your lifestyle isn't who you are ... so are we all fakes?
  What signifies if a person is truly straight or gay? Their attraction towards others? That certainy can be influenced by others - i.e faked.
  
  I understand what you meant behind that statement because your actions doesn't necessarily dictate your personal beliefs and structure. However, a person's lifestyle certainly does play a big role on who a person is.
  
  And are you really going to play that whole persecution card? So be it

  [Image: http://www.laymark.com/l/o/51.gif]

  
  
  People are persecuted and die for their beliefs all the time. It doesn't make it right, but it's a sad reflection on our human condition. If you truly believe in what you stand by, then it's called being martyr. Huh? Christians happen to incur the same wrath you just described by others! But no one is born a Christian, being a Christian is a choice. Your attraction towards members of your same sex may not, but how your respond to said attraction and your further actions are a choice. If a person cannot control your desires or actions, then I implore that person to see a doctor.
  
  

  Quote from Chiyuri;751576:

  It's not a matter of been easy or not.. it's not something you can force to happen to begin with. Forcing an individual to change a preference is 99,9999991% harmful for the said individual. It's harmful on the psychological end, it will often backfire or even break an individual.

  
  
  I couldn't help but laugh when I read this. Makes it sound like we are in some anime world.
  I never said we should force anyone to do anything. If a person does something willingly, then it isn't forced at all!
  
  Also, lasted time I checked ... I am in no psychological harm nor I am broken.
  So yeah, 45% of statistics are made up on the spot.
  
  EDIT:
  I didn't see your other post. So yeah!
  
  

  Quote from Cynic;751575:

  And even then, all you've really done is repress their actual sexuality and replace it with the notion that they are something else.

  
  
  What you call repress, I call change. If a person does it voluntarily, then it isn't forcing them.
  Also, what would you be suppressing?
  
  

  Quote from Cynic;751575:

  
  Another example; just because someone lives with cats doesn't mean they like them. Just because a person lives in a forest doesn't mean they like forests.

  
  
  True. But they could always move out of the forest if it was that displeasing. Why get cats if you don't like them? I know your trying to prove a point, but it seems to fall a bit short because those are environments. A heterosexual man won't have sex with another man if sexuality was so unchanging. But alas, it can happen and it does.
  
  

  Quote from Cynic;751575:

  
  You seem to associate lifestyle and sexuality as a whole, when they can be completely the same, or completely different.
  
  What all affects our sexuality? It varies. But what is true about sexuality? Once it's set, it cannot be changed.

  
  
  I do perhaps associate the two to a degree. I believe that they are really peas in a pod. Both are dependent on each other. Homosexual people wouldn't even normally think of dating/having sex with someone of the opposite sex. Likewise with heterosexual people. So, if a person's "taste" changed, what really changed? Their lifestyle (what they do are a person) or their sexual preference (sexuality)?
• Zid wrote on 2012-01-28 06:46
  Roughly half and half.
  
  People are vague with the definition of "choice" in this matter anyway.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2012-01-28 06:59

  Quote from Chiyuri;751551:

  Remind me of colors. Even if someone tell me to favor a color over another, I can't just change my way of thinking, purple will still remain my favorite.

  
  
  This is a really solid and strong example I want to elaborate on.
  
  Its a choice, yet its not a choice. You can't help that you prefer a certain color over another. But its not natural nor is it fate or genetic. Certainly, these things play a big role, but at the same time you weren't fated to have a specific certain color since your birth.
  
  We are who we are because of what we've experienced. The word "choice" is not what we want to be using for this debate. We don't choose to be gay, or transsexual, but there may have been events and upbringing through your life that occurred to slowly lean you towards that direction.
  
  

  Quote from Cynic;751510:

  The only choice involved in sexuality is whether or not you want to deny it.
  
  Everything else is out of our hands, and that is a proven fact.

  
  
  Enlighten us. With proven facts.
  
  I want to see papers, reports, scientific reasoning, genetics, etc.
  
  I'm not just being a jerk. I have my opinions on this that disagree on the topic but I'm also genuinely interested.
  
  Though I said half and half I strongly believe nurture has much more power over a human being than nature.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-01-28 09:14

  Quote from Episkey;751586:

  
  I couldn't help but laugh when I read this. Makes it sound like we are in some anime world.
  I never said we should force anyone to do anything. If a person does something willingly, then it isn't forced at all!
  
  

  
  
  No that's not the point of what I mean.. A person cannot change their preference by will alone nor with the help of others. It just happens if it does, which in most case doesn't.
  
  
  

  Quote from Episkey;751586:

  
  Also, lasted time I checked ... I am in no psychological harm nor I am broken.
  So yeah, 45% of statistics are made up on the spot.
  
  EDIT:
  I didn't see your other post. So yeah!
  

  
  Unless you misunderstood what I wrote again, I'ma take it from what you just wrote that you tried to change your preference and analyzed that it was not harmful to you to change it? But to analyze this statement, you need to have seen improvements to the change you are trying to bring, which is to change your preference. I highly doubt that...
• Episkey wrote on 2012-01-28 10:07

  Quote from Chiyuri;751930:

  No that's not the point of what I mean.. A person cannot change their preference by will alone nor with the help of others. It just happens if it does, which in most case doesn't.

  
  
  Oh. Um. Forgive me if I misunderstand what you wrote again ... But if people can change their preference, but it does not occur via their will or others - then how does it change? :what:
  
  

  Quote from Chiyuri;751930:

  
  Unless you misunderstood what I wrote again, I'ma take it from what you just wrote that you tried to change your preference and analyzed that it was not harmful to you to change it? But to analyze this statement, you need to have seen improvements to the change you are trying to bring, which is to change your preference. I highly doubt that...

  
  
  No, It wasn't just a mere analysis.
• Hannah's Lover wrote on 2012-01-28 10:12
  It think it's both, I mean things change and you don't choose who you fall in love with, but you can choose on what type of person you want to see in a relationship.
  
  To me, if a man and a man (or vise versa) were supposed to be together, they would be able to reproduce naturally.
  
  *ducks*
• Conor wrote on 2012-01-28 10:14

  Quote from Kollin;751516:

  Indeed, the whole Nature vs. Nurture debate.
  

  
  
  b0th.
  

  [Image: http://beinglatino.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/nolosdos.jpg]

  
  
  
  

  Quote from Hannah's Lover;752027:

  It think it's both, I mean things change and you don't choose who you fall in love with, but you can choose on what type of person you want to see in a relationship.
  
  To me, if a man and a man (or vise versa) were supposed to be together, they would be able to reproduce naturally.
  
  *ducks*

  
  
  By this logic, father and daughter, or even grandfather and daughter (so long as both are still able/able yet to reproduce) are supposed to be together for they can reproduce naturally.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-01-28 10:27

  Quote from Episkey;752022:

  Oh. Um. Forgive me if I misunderstand what you wrote again ... But if people can change their preference, but it does not occur via their will or others - then how does it change? :what:

  
  
  To begin with, in most case it will not change. But young people tent to change their preference at random and usually by the time they are 16-18, their preference become more permanent. Age influence the development of preference but not in the same way for everyone.
  
  As to the question of how does it change, I honestly don't know. When I was much younger, I preferred green. Dunno why but I'm fully into purple now and have been that way for 8 years already. I always loved strawberries more than all other fruits I tasted and this has never changed in my life time. My favorite meal as far as I can remember has always been Hot Chicken sandwich with sauce and fries. My taste in RPG is relatively the same as it was back in my SNES days. This topic is about sexuality so I should probably explain the path of mine but in reality there isn't much to say. I was not interested in sex and such for a long time. When I started been interest in love at 17 years old maybe, I did prefer looking at girls more than guys. But I'm pretty sure I was just interested in love, didn't and still don't care much for what's in people's pants. Even now I still prefer female looking figures a lot more than guys, but I do feel more emotionnaly attracted toward guys than I was before.. Doesn't really change my mind on which to date, I don't have anything against one or another (or anything inbetween)
  
  Anyway, never felt the need my taste had to be changed and most of them never changed as far as I can remember. I still don't know what make me change from green to purple if there is any logical explaination for it.. Maybe purple was a more mature development that follow green? Doubt it through.
• Hannah's Lover wrote on 2012-01-28 10:29

  Quote from Conor;752029:

  b0th.
  

  [Image: http://beinglatino.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/nolosdos.jpg]

  
  
  
  
  
  By this logic, father and daughter, or even grandfather and daughter (so long as both are still able/able yet to reproduce) are supposed to be together for they can reproduce naturally.

  
  
  It used to happen, until we realized what can happen.
  Like I said, things change.
  But I don't think this is what was supposed to happen.
  but then again, humans existing in a scientific perspective is like impossible, but we're still here, right?
• Episkey wrote on 2012-01-28 10:32

  Quote from Chiyuri;752054:

  To begin with, in most case it will not change. But young people tent to change their preference at random and usually by the time they are 16-18, their preference become more permanent. Age influence the development of preference but not in the same way for everyone.
  
  As to the question of how does it change, I honestly don't know. When I was much younger, I preferred green. Dunno why but I'm fully into purple now and have been that way for 8 years already. I always loved strawberries more than all other fruits I tasted and this has never changed in my life time. My favorite meal as far as I can remember has always been Hot Chicken sandwich with sauce and fries. My taste in RPG is relatively the same as it was back in my SNES days. This topic is about sexuality so I should probably explain the path of mine but in reality there isn't much to say. I was not interested in sex and such for a long time. When I started been interest in love at 17 years old maybe, I did prefer looking at girls more than guys. But I'm pretty sure I was just interested in love, didn't and still don't care much for what's in people's pants. Even now I still prefer female looking figures a lot more than guys, but I do feel more emotionnaly attracted toward guys than I was before.. Doesn't really change my mind on which to date, I don't have anything against one or another (or anything inbetween)
  
  Anyway, never felt the need my taste had to be changed and most of them never changed as far as I can remember. I still don't know what make me change from green to purple if there is any logical explaination for it.. Maybe purple was a more mature development that follow green? Doubt it through.

  
  
  Ah. I see. Thank you for explaining that. I think sexuality is a lot more complex than colors or fruit, but at a basic level it might indeed be the same.
  Interesting food for thought.
  
  As for your favorite color changing, I could think of multiple reasons why. Maybe something important to you was purple or something like that. I'm just generalizing, I don't really know lol.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-01-28 10:32

  Quote from Hannah's Lover;752027:

  
  
  To me, if a man and a man (or vise versa) were supposed to be together, they would be able to reproduce naturally.
  
  *ducks*

  
  
  Reproduction is simply ment for evolution and the continuation of the race. Humans self-awareness already transcended the state of been an animal and relationship aren't just about what nature what them to do.. Otherwise "love" and "friendship" would be non-existent and people would just screw around to make more kids, eat and sleep...