Sexuality: Choice or Natural?

• Cynic wrote on 2012-01-28 21:13
  If sexuality really is a choice, I fail to see why someone doesn't change theirs right now just to prove me wrong. If it is a choice, why can't you switch to something else and then back to your original sexuality? I'm also curious as to why some of you chose to be Straight in that case.
  
  From how I see it, people only consider it a choice because the according to the Bible, being gay is 'unnatural'. And the only way to back up that claim would be to state sexuality is a choice, not something that it out of our hands.
  
  I wonder how many people here that consider it a choice aren't actually followers of the Bible.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2012-01-28 22:55

  Quote from Cynic;752505:

  If sexuality really is a choice, I fail to see why someone doesn't change theirs right now just to prove me wrong. If it is a choice, why can't you switch to something else and then back to your original sexuality? I'm also curious as to why some of you chose to be Straight in that case.
  
  From how I see it, people only consider it a choice because the according to the Bible, being gay is 'unnatural'. And the only way to back up that claim would be to state sexuality is a choice, not something that it out of our hands.
  
  I wonder how many people here that consider it a choice aren't actually followers of the Bible.

  
  
  Its like you straight up ignored my post.
• Sumpfkraut wrote on 2012-01-29 01:33
  The title is weird. Since when are choices unnatural phenomenons? :what:
  
  
  Also, I don't know in how far you can consciously affect your sexuality, but I very well know that I didn't exactly reason with myself over just what fetishes to have. So, the hypothesis that sexuality is generally a choice is falsified.
  
  

  Quote from TheKartheus;752254:

  Obviously not, I was just making a generalization to prove a point.

  
  Yeah I wonder if the data would support you though. I actually gravely doubt that high-pitched voices are a common occurence amongst homoerotic men. I always found that claim a bit strange. The only men with high-pitched voices I've ever met didn't ahve an adam's apple yet, were scared, talking to children, or drag queens (which, like, is something completely different).
• Cynic wrote on 2012-01-29 01:39

  Quote from Cucurbita;752562:

  Its like you straight up ignored my post.

  
  
  It wasn't on this page, so basically, yes.
  
  I figured the prior page was the one I had read yesterday. But in response; you can't convince someone to change their sexuality that easy. Sorry, it just isn't physically possible. Other matters? Sure. But not sexuality. Humans are, thankfully, not that dim-witted.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2012-01-29 01:44

  Quote from Cynic;752709:

  It wasn't on this page, so basically, yes.

  
  
  The basics of the concept I'm trying to lay down here is that the words "choice or natural" are the wrong ones to discuss this particular topic.
  
  Much like having a favorite color or a favorite food, or maybe having a fetish of some sort, its not something we can just choose. But at the same time, its not hardwired into us since birth as if its fate. There have been discoveries of the gay gene but its also been shown to go a lot deeper than that.
  
  The word "choice" and "natural" are definitely not fit for this discussion. Both definitions aren't accurate.
  
  And in any case, your personal logic is something I honestly don't follow. I think your reasoning is pretty problematic and narrow. Thats not really proof.
• Kueh wrote on 2012-01-29 01:45

  Quote from Cynic;752505:

  If sexuality really is a choice, I fail to see why someone doesn't change theirs right now just to prove me wrong. If it is a choice, why can't you switch to something else and then back to your original sexuality? I'm also curious as to why some of you chose to be Straight in that case.
  
  From how I see it, people only consider it a choice because the according to the Bible, being gay is 'unnatural'. And the only way to back up that claim would be to state sexuality is a choice, not something that it out of our hands.
  
  I wonder how many people here that consider it a choice aren't actually followers of the Bible.

  
  
  Your argument is flawed on a few accounts. First of all, you're misplacing the burden of proof, which in this case falls on you. To say, "Oh yeah? Prove it." is not a compelling argument. When you want to prove that "X" is not the case, it's not enough to simply show that there are cases of "not X". In order to prove "not X" you have to show that "X" is impossible to obtain.
  
  It does seem like the logical way to show that "X" is impossible is to ask for someone to show "X", but even if no one on mabination can show "X", even if no one on the world can show "X", it doesn't prove that "X" is impossible. In this case, "X" is the ability to choose your sexuality.
  
  Secondly, it detriments your own argument to bring in religion into the mix. It's not only a logical fallacy, but you're also inviting the topic to stray off course, and you're going to wind up losing your chance to prove your point.
  
  Furthermore, the argument in itself is a fallacy. No one said that anyone is capable of completely switching their sexuality at will. In fact, that's pretty much the opposite of what the majority of people are saying. In addition to that, a preference, by its definition, means that it's not likely to change. I chose to like blue. I have a list of reasons for liking blue. I used to like red, I used to like purple, now I like blue. Does the fact that I can't or won't just up and choose to start liking green distract from the fact that I chose to like blue in the first place?
  
  What's being said is that there is a genetic predisposition for one sexuality or another, but there is still room for choice.
  
  

  Quote from Sumpfkraut;752702:

  Since when are choices unnatural phenomenons? :what:

  
  
  I love this. Probably the most wise sentence in this whole thread.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-01-29 01:49

  Quote from Lyre;752717:

  
  What's being said is that there is a genetic predisposition for one sexuality or another, but there is still room for choice.

  
  
  Pretty much my stance.
  
  Also, if "choice" isn't a correct term to use ... What would be an acceptable alternation?
  I can't seem to think of any of the top of my head.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2012-01-29 02:08

  Quote from Episkey;752722:

  Pretty much my stance.
  
  Also, if "choice" isn't a correct term to use ... What would be an acceptable alternation?
  I can't seem to think of any of the top of my head.

  
  
  Its difficult. But clearly I can't just straight up choose to become gay even if I wanted. I mean, I probably could become bi if I really applied some serious self convincing. The mind is so easy to warp especially once you've convinced yourself of something. But then nothing will actually stop my blood from pumping when I see a sexy woman, so again, its not something I can choose.
  
  That's cynic's argument. You can't choose to become gay if you're straight. Its a fair and solid point.
  
  But then its not really natural either. A few people are born gay, but not everyone. Cynic believes people who are gay or transgender are born that way and just choose to deny it to themselves. Its possible to do this and to deny yourself is actually very feasible. But what I believe is that conditioning can also lead to it.
  
  Conditioning doesn't just stop with parental guidance like you always hear. Its literally everything you ever hear, see, touch, feel, taste, smell, think. It makes us who we are.
  
  If I had genetic predisposition to be either sexualities, then whether I would be gay, bi, or straight isn't choice, but rather what I've experienced in life, and what I experience from thereon. From that point and on, you could possibly argue its a choice, though I believe its too late to say its a "choice", but to take the choice would mean you would further strengthen that conditioned mentality and therefore make it "natural". Since I'm born with the disposition of the three sexualities, any one that I become is already natural. Of course, if I was born with only disposition to become gay, then its straight up natural and I can't argue it. Some children early as age 3 or 4 showing signs of being gay without parenting involvement in their sexuality would be an example of this.
  
  I want to use an example I read in an excerpt about how the human mind convinces itself a full truth from half a truth and allows it to becomes absolute truth, without oneself even realizing the entire process is happening. Its very interesting. Though the topic of the research itself was based on "negativity", it had full potential to be also associated with mental illnesses, various, sexuality, self justification, etc. I'll dig it up at sometime. I only have a physical copy in one of my millions of binders and I forget what its called.
• Pierce wrote on 2012-01-29 02:14
  None. I don't think you're born with any kind of sexuality, as a pre programmed pc. You develop it as you grow, could be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual... etc.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-01-29 02:22

  Quote from Cucurbita;752742:

  Its difficult. But clearly I can't just straight up choose to become gay even if I wanted. I mean, I probably could become bi if I really applied some serious self convincing. The mind is so easy to warp especially once you've convinced yourself of something. But then nothing will actually stop my blood from pumping when I see a sexy woman, so again, its not something I can choose.
  
  That's cynic's argument. You can't choose to become gay if you're straight. Its a fair and solid point.
  
  But then its not really natural either. A few people are born gay, but not everyone. Cynic believes people who are gay or transgender are born that way and just choose to deny it to themselves. Its possible to do this and to deny yourself is actually very feasible. But what I believe is that conditioning can also lead to it.
  
  Conditioning doesn't just stop with parental guidance like you always hear. Its literally everything you ever hear, see, touch, feel, taste, smell, think. It makes us who we are.
  
  If I had genetic predisposition to be either sexualities, then whether I would be gay, bi, or straight isn't choice, but rather what I've experienced in life, and what I experience from thereon. From that point and on, you could possibly argue its a choice, though I believe its too late to say its a "choice", but to take the choice would mean you would further strengthen that conditioned mentality and therefore make it "natural". Since I'm born with the disposition of the three sexualities, any one that I become is already natural. Of course, if I was born with only disposition to become gay, then its straight up natural and I can't argue it. Some children early as age 3 or 4 showing signs of being gay without parenting involvement in their sexuality would be an example of this.
  
  I want to use an example I read in an excerpt about how the human mind convinces itself a full truth from half a truth and allows it to becomes absolute truth, without oneself even realizing the entire process is happening. Its very interesting. Though the topic of the research itself was based on "negativity", it had full potential to be also associated with mental illnesses, various, sexuality, self justification, etc. I'll dig it up at sometime. I only have a physical copy in one of my millions of binders and I forget what its called.

  
  
  I don't know ... there are exceptions to stuff like this though. I mean, people who considered themselves to be heterosexual then decide that it is a homosexual relationship is what they really want ... only to go back again?
  The transience of some people's sexual orientation is what really irks me. It's something I try to think about.
  
  So, can our life experiences shape our sexuality? Yes, I firmly believe so. Again, I believe it's both - but more in the direction of a choice or cognizant decision. Cognizant decision. I kinda like that :D
  
  I would also be interested in seeing whatever excerpt you were talking about, considering this is something that I've read about on "both sides."
• Hannah's Lover wrote on 2012-01-29 02:24

  Quote from Sumpfkraut;752702:

  The title is weird. Since when are choices unnatural phenomenons? :what:
  
  
  Also, I don't know in how far you can consciously affect your sexuality, but I very well know that I didn't exactly reason with myself over just what fetishes to have. So, the hypothesis that sexuality is generally a choice is falsified.
  
  
  Yeah I wonder if the data would support you though. I actually gravely doubt that high-pitched voices are a common occurence amongst homoerotic men. I always found that claim a bit strange. The only men with high-pitched voices I've ever met didn't ahve an adam's apple yet, were scared, talking to children, or drag queens (which, like, is something completely different).

  
  
  happy 5 bars
• Cucurbita wrote on 2012-01-29 02:29

  Quote from Episkey;752761:

  I don't know ... there are exceptions to stuff like this though. I mean, people who considered themselves to be heterosexual then decide that it is a homosexual relationship is what they really want ... only to go back again?

  
  
  Thats just self denied bisexuality, isn't it? Either that or a teenager trying to be hip. I'd like to think the former, for my own sanity.
  
  And of course, these types of discussions will always have exceptions. We're mostly speaking on behalf of the masses for this discussion though.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-01-29 02:37

  Quote from Cucurbita;752775:

  Thats just self denied bisexuality, isn't it? Either that or a teenager trying to be hip. I'd like to think the former, for my own sanity.
  
  And of course, these types of discussions will always have exceptions. We're mostly speaking on behalf of the masses for this discussion though.

  
  
  Well, I think it's personally just confusion - since the person I can think of is very academically minded and intelligent.
  
  Also, what would constitute "denial" then? That's something that I never fully understood when people say - "Oh that person is just denying that they are gay." Personally, that's kinda silly - but meh. Maybe someone can offer some input.
  
  Since we are talking about the "change", I believe the exceptions should be brought into the discussion.
  Or at the very least, recognize that there are such exceptions.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2012-01-29 02:53

  Quote from Episkey;752782:

  Well, I think it's personally just confusion - since the person I can think of is very academically minded and intelligent.
  
  Also, what would constitute "denial" then? That's something that I never fully understood when people say - "Oh that person is just denying that they are gay." Personally, that's kinda silly - but meh. Maybe someone can offer some input.
  
  Since we are talking about the "change", I believe the exceptions should be brought into the discussion.
  Or at the very least, recognize that there are such exceptions.

  
  
  Perhaps you're just uncomfortable with the word denial since its been used so negatively in our culture.
  
  If your friend is straight, then one day realize he's gay, then one day decide he's straight again, then he most certainly just fit the definition of what it means to be bisexual.
  
  We're not so advanced that we can switch our sexuality whenever we feel like a shift stick. Confusion of your own sexuality and denial of bisexuality is similar enough for categorization to me.
  
  Though I don't know such a person and as you said, exceptions exist. But in a general case if you switch your sexuality more than once you've fit the definition of bisexuality and theres no real escaping that fact. Perhaps if we analyze the person more we could come with a much more accurate definition for that person's sexuality, but in bisexuality more or less covers the wide field of categories and this example man falls into it.
  
  Its like how an orange will categorized a fruit, even though we could be more specific and call it a citric fruit.
• abc33kr wrote on 2012-01-29 02:58

  Quote from Chiyuri;752080:

  Reproduction is simply ment for evolution and the continuation of the race. Humans self-awareness already transcended the state of been an animal and relationship aren't just about what nature what them to do.. Otherwise "love" and "friendship" would be non-existent and people would just screw around to make more kids, eat and sleep...

  
  
  I thought it was because nature tells us to not make crappy kids. So we choose wisely who our love is instead of screwing around with random homeless people.
  /please ignore if i replied to a too old of a post that's not relevant anymore
  
  Anyways, I believe that nature is really vague and could be manipulated to be about anything.
  People tend to leave humans out of nature because they're supposedly special.
  Nope, humans are just a mammal in the animal kingdom. All we do are completely natural. Factory building, cutting down all the forest, nuking the earth dead, etc.
  
  Thus, whether humans choose to be homosexual or heterosexual are completely natural. Just like how pack mules cannot reproduce is natural, how two homosexuals cannot reproduce with each other is natural.
  
  and from what I've observed, it seems like cynic's view is predeterminism. If that's the case, then no one has choice in anything, this higher being called "nature" supposedly has determined our sexuality.
  We never really know what our "true" sexuality is.
  A person might be homosexual who denies his sexuality and decides to be heterosexual and not even realize it.
  A person might be heterosexual who denies his sexuality and decides to be homosexual and not even realize it.