Mans Exposes His Autistic Child Being Abused by Teachers at School

• Ithiliel wrote on 2012-04-24 08:05

  Quote from TA;846877:

  Empathy is a meaningless human delusion.
  
  Reason is not clouded by reason. It's your emotions that clouds reason.
  
  Something as useless as emotions, we never needed them to begin with. A species without such things would be far superior. From a design perspective, it is a horrible flaw, and among our greatest weakness.
  
  Emotions cause illogical actions.
  
  A knife is being swung at your lover. You dive in front and save them, taking the mortal wound yourself. You die.
  
  Was this action logical? No, it was emotional. When emotions become involved, reason is clouded, if not thrown completely out the window.
  
  Don't delude yourself into believing otherwise.

  
  
  It's sad how delusional you are, it really is. What is the point of living if you don't experience emotions? What a pointless, meaningless existence.
• MikeHo wrote on 2012-04-24 08:12

  Quote from TA;846872:

  
  The ability to communicate and reason; love, compassion, hate, intelligence, war, art, language, and so on. The many things that make us "human."
  
  Without these things and others, we are not really human. We may exist, but we wouldn't be human.
  
  You guys let your own pity for other living things really cloud your reason...
  

  
  
  
  To each his/her own i guess. I am going to say just because someone has a disability doesn't make them any less human. With your logic i could go out and kill anything i want as long as they aren't human. We don't understand what people with mental disabilities are going through. For all we know they do have some form of the things you believe makes us human. Humans are complex creatures we can't fathom what others will do when faced with a challenge. View points you or I may consider may or may not be the same as the person with the problem. Some people do manage to rise above it other do not but do we have the right to decide for them?
  
  Whats wrong about caring for people isnt that what you said makes us human. Whats so wrong with being compassionate.
• Medusa wrote on 2012-04-24 08:12
  i have to admit, i didn't really understand the point for most of the video. it's sort of like talking around a deaf person.
  
  there are a couple points that are definitely inappropriate but... does the kid really even understand the difference? i'm sure it wasn't enjoyable, but does that kid even understand his father's crusade?
• TA wrote on 2012-04-24 08:21

  Quote from Ithiliel;846879:

  It's sad how delusional you are, it really is. What is the point of living if you don't experience emotions? What a pointless, meaningless existence.

  
  
  That's ridiculous. You feel that way because your every action is dictated by it. And why, because you have a mammalian brain?
  
  And do all creatures without a mammalian brain that don't experience emotions have a pointless meaningless existence?
  
  What utter nonsense, measuring the value of life and basing it solely upon your own selfishly biased human condition.
  
  

  [Image: http://i.minus.com/jVkZ6VHzHBeyg.jpg]

  
  
  If their species truly existed (though let's say that it's inherent to their species and not a choice), I suppose by your logic they would have "a pointless, meaningless existence?"
  
  ...and I'm the delusional one...
• Ithiliel wrote on 2012-04-24 08:31

  Quote from TA;846884:

  That's ridiculous. You feel that way because your every action is dictated by it. And why, because you have a mammalian brain?
  
  And do all creatures without a mammalian brain that don't experience emotions have a pointless meaningless existence?
  
  What utter nonsense, measuring the value of life and basing it solely upon your own selfishly biased human condition.
  
  

  [Image: http://i.minus.com/jVkZ6VHzHBeyg.jpg]

  
  
  If their species truly existed (though let's say that it's inherent to their species and not a choice), I suppose by your logic they would have "a pointless, meaningless existence?"
  
  ...and I'm the delusional one...

  
  
  You do realize that you're not devoid of emotion, don't you? The overwhelmingly sense of pride and superiority that you have in yourself? Yeah, that's an emotion so really, your own "rationality" that you believe you have is clouded just as much. Funny, how you're calling me selfish when a majority of what you've stated within this thread is your own selfish biasedness towards those you think are below you. No one is "below" you TA, you're not better than anyone else in this world and I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to make me sound like I'm ignorant by shoving your own beliefs out like it's pure truth.
  
  And yes, you are delusional, you're just failing to see it.
• Cynic wrote on 2012-04-24 08:38

  Quote from Ithiliel;846879:

  It's sad how delusional you are, it really is. What is the point of living if you don't experience emotions? What a pointless, meaningless existence.

  
  
  To be completely honest Ithi, emotions are good but only to an extent. Emotion has driven people to do some pretty fucked up things.
  I believe that a world driven by logic is very ideal, though like I said, it is also good to have some emotion present to keep us in check.
  
  Even Vulcans have emotions, only they've learned to suppress and bury them deep within themselves. Does this make them a better species? In most ways, yes. But anybody who has ever watched Star Trek should realize that as perfect as their are, their logic can only do so much.
  
  Humans have emotions for a reason. And while most of it is pretty useless, twisted and contorted in every day life, it.. does still play a role in every day life.
  
  But to say a life that is primarily ruled by logic is delusional is really pushing it.
  
  When it comes to logic and emotion, it should really be a 80/20 thing. Give humans logic to not be dimwits, but give them just enough emotion to balance it out.
  
  If I had grown up differently and without anybody to care for, I'd probably agree fully with TA. And while I do agree with her to an extent, I also agree with you that emotion should still be present, just in moderation.
  
  So really, both of you are right in different ways.
• Royale wrote on 2012-04-24 08:46

  Quote from TA;846872:

  compassion

  
  
  And you seem to lack those, does that make you a sub-human? the only mental disorder that makes someone an "empty shell" would be would be brain death. just because someone's mind might not function the same way our does, doesn't mean they don't deserve to live or is any less human than anyone else,they can still see the world, they can still feel, they can still find happiness, and they can still get better. they probably don't want to die ether.
  
  mental disorder detection before birth is almost impossible, many mental disorders are developed during childhood, and the same gene that gives me blue eye can be mistaken for, say something that will cause multiple personality disorder. why, i myself was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, before they realized i was just ignoring them. imagine that, in your world, i could been accidently put down back then.
  
  as for spartans, how many famous spartan philosophers, mathematicians, scientists do you know? their eugenics only made them know a bunch of muscles head good at nothing but fighting and almost no technological advances, also a movie starring Gerard Butler.
  
  if we just kill off what we deem not worthy, we are no better than brainless savages.
  
  p.s. please don't bring Spock into this, or i will be forced to start bring out unicorns.
• Taycat wrote on 2012-04-24 08:48
  When did this turn into the "TA is ignorant to human feelings" thread?
• Conor wrote on 2012-04-24 08:50

  Quote from TA;846872:

  
  I say it not from a biological level. I ask you: What does it mean to be human?
  
  The ability to communicate and reason; love, compassion, hate, intelligence, war, art, language, and so on. The many things that make us "human."
  
  Sure, you could make a genetic shell that resembles us, but without our mind, our nature, would we truly be "human?"
  
  I think human is a mental condition.
  
  Without these things and others, we are not really human. We may exist, but we wouldn't be human.
  
  So unfortunately, I can't call those that lack the basic abilities that make us humans.... human. They are sub-human, at best. At worst.... a genetic mistake.

  
  
  A disability doesn't prevent anyone from all of those, maybe one or two at most. Lacking one or two of those traits doesn't make someone useless in a community for they can surely do something yet so long as effort is put forth.
  These are people. They are natural. They are not inorganic, synthetic "shells" formed in a lab with machinery.
  
  

  Quote from TA;846877:

  Empathy is a meaningless human delusion.
  
  Reason is not clouded by reason. It's your emotions that clouds reason.
  
  Something as useless as emotions, we never needed them to begin with. A species without such things would be far superior. From a design perspective, it is a horrible flaw, and among our greatest weakness.
  
  Emotions cause illogical actions.
  
  A knife is being swung at your lover. You dive in front and save them, taking the mortal wound yourself. You die.
  
  Was this action logical? No, it was emotional. When emotions become involved, reason is clouded, if not thrown completely out the window.
  
  Don't delude yourself into believing otherwise.

  
  You say that Autistics aren't human because they lack emotions and social traits such as love, communication, and empathy, yet you're saying that they right here that these traits hinder humans as they are delusional and should be abandoned. That would make us inhuman. For you to not consider emotions in your reasoning makes you inhuman.
  You must not subscribe to the mental condition you call human, so why are you here? Or rather why should we let you here, as you aren't as human as us?
  
  Yet unfortunately, you can't call those that lack the basic abilities that make us humans.... human. You are sub-human, at best. At worst.... you are a genetic mistake.
  
  I, on the other hand, realize that regardless of you lacking certain human qualities doesn't mean you're not human for it's a much more complex equation than that.
  
  I won't ridicule you for securing your own longevity in life. I wouldn't even dare to say you shouldn't be able to reproduce because you lack some human traits, even if the limited human traits you have and no more pass on to your children. But if you decide that you shouldn't seek immortality or reproduce because by your standards you are a sub-par human I understand and will sympathize.
• TA wrote on 2012-04-24 09:28
  Ithi... I'm not even going to quote that, due to how insulting it is. I have to wonder when you decided to make it about me personally, and bring insults into it.
  
  You're obviously very emotionally shaken right now, and not being rational whatsoever. I can see how having a family member you care for afflicted with such a condition might illicit such a response, though I do not condone such a response.
  
  You're taking many things I mention within the abstract as personal insults, and taking similar leaps otherwise.
  
  I do not exhibit empathy, this is true; however, I do exhibit most of the other emotions. Though, I lack morality and sympathy. I never claimed to have no emotions, simply that they're meaningless (and honestly, I have to wonder why the hell this is being brought into it). Emotions are held as valuable due to the human condition; however, remove that, and a lack of emotions becomes superior.
  
  If emotions cloud logic and reason, and we can agree logic and reason are good things, then we can postulate that a species without emotions would be "better off."
  
  You can get into philosophical arguments, but stick with me here...
  
  -Something like hate would be unknown to them. Hate is an emotion, and it leads to murder and war, which only propagates more of the same.
  -Without morality, ethics, or other emotional decisions to get in their way, they would advance much faster than we possibly could.
  -Without sympathy, empathy, remorse, and similar, they would be cold and calculating. They would be far superior in combat.
  -Without happiness, sadness, or boredom, they would be much more efficient than we could ever be. No breaks, no slacking off, no day dreaming. Just pure efficiency.
  
  As for my comment on "measuring the value of life and basing it solely upon your own selfishly biased human condition" - it is in direct reference to equating all non-emotional lifeforms to pointless and meaningless.
  
  A selfish biased human condition, is reference to the state of existing with emotion. A being that did not exist with emotion would not hold such a high value to emotion.
  
  It would be, as mentioned, a weakness. I'm not even going to bother explaining the rest... you can figure it out on your own once you calm down.
  
  Now... getting back to a statement I made earlier...
  
  

  The ability to communicate and reason; love, compassion, hate, intelligence, war, art, language, and so on. The many things that make us "human."

  
  
  These things, are only a few examples of the human condition; not a guideline for judgment.
  
  The inability, or a severely diminished capacity of some of the more essential things such as the ability to communicate and reason, language, intelligence, tactile functions, and so on, would make someone mentally non-human.
  
  To Autism in question, it is "characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior." These are things that are a very basic element of the human condition, and to lack them or experience them in a severely diminished capacity, yes.... it should be considered "less than 'human'." That is, experiencing the human condition at a severely diminished capacity. Thus, the sub- denotation.
  
  Such things should be prevented outright if possible (just as many would choose to abort an obviously severely deformed embryo that would have severe disabilities and impairments in life or a poor chance of survival even - which can also be attributed to many of this condition e.g. "Not many children with autism live independently after reaching adulthood"), and if it occurs later in life, then cured.
• Taycat wrote on 2012-04-24 09:33
  But I thought you couldn't detect Autism when they're within the womb??
• Royale wrote on 2012-04-24 09:39
  sorry to break it to you, but you might have narcissistic personality disorder....
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2012-04-24 10:06
  *looks at thread*
  
  Oh dear me, this won't do. All I'll say is that TA would make a great Kyuubey.
  
  But that's another point all together. I think you guys need to step back and defuse a little. Insulting each other is not going to get you anywhere and is only going to turn this thread into a great big giant flame war. It's already bad enough as it is.
  
  Because TA lacks a good amount of emotions however she is remaining cool and collected. Because of emotion, you guys are heating this up quite a bit more than it should be.
  
  I, like TA do lack a significant amount of compassion and sympathy for others so I can see where she is coming from. I agree with her that if it can be prevented, it can be stopped.
  
  If you guys would quit letting your emotions get in the way, you can see that she doesn't want any person who is autistic that's already alive to be killed. That would be just too cruel as what's happaned is happaned and you and I can't change that.
  
  All she's merely saying is that if you can prevent it from happening or to stop the birth before the child has to suffer, then such action should be taken. Of course that would have a devastating impact on the mother I would imagine but if she had the child's best interests at heart she would do so.
  
  Now, if you excuse me. I'm going to get out of here before it heats up any further.
  
  [abandon]Imminent Flame War[/abandon]
• TA wrote on 2012-04-24 10:28

  Quote from Mythical Detective Loki;846925:

  But I thought you couldn't detect Autism when they're within the womb??

  
  
  We can't yet; it's an abstract scenario.
  
  __
  
  As for the video at hand (for those beyond myself that bothered to watch it) - I do think the father there is overreacting quite a bit. The teachers in question obviously aren't the best suited for teaching special needs children, but it's not nearly as terrible as he purported it to be.
  
  There was never anything like making fun of or insulting the kid and yadda yadda. I think the teachers just have no training dealing with special individuals, and are treating them like normal children instead and expecting them to behave like normal students; unfortunately, that doesn't work when they inherently aren't normal and aren't capable of such behavior.
  
  Beyond that.... obviously talking about that kind of stuff is inappropriate for a school environment. I mean who the hell addresses a class and tells them they got wasted last night with their girlfriend and crap? That's just.... I don't even.
  
  I mean, don't get me wrong... they're horrible teachers. I just didn't see them doing quite what the image the father painted of them was. The things he picked out he claimed to be the most terrible, but.... most of it wasn't really that bad. And the guy even said that the kid was screaming in a tantrum, throwing desks and chairs and crap, for half an hour after he got an answer he didn't like.
  
  For a teacher that doesn't have proper training with special needs kids.... it makes sense why they might be quick to be agitated by such seemingly irate and irrational behavior. Most normal people would if you look at the students as if they were any other normal student.
• Conor wrote on 2012-04-24 10:39

  Quote from TA;846923:

  
  
  These things, are only a few examples of the human condition; not a guideline for judgment.
  
  The inability, or a severely diminished capacity of some of the more essential things such as the ability to communicate and reason, language, intelligence, tactile functions, and so on, would make someone mentally non-human.
  
  To Autism in question, it is "characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior." These are things that are a very basic element of the human condition, and to lack them or experience them in a severely diminished capacity, yes.... it should be considered "less than 'human'." That is, experiencing the human condition at a severely diminished capacity. Thus, the sub- denotation.
  
  Such things should be prevented outright if possible (just as many would choose to abort an obviously severely deformed embryo that would have severe disabilities and impairments in life or a poor chance of survival even - which can also be attributed to many of this condition e.g. "Not many children with autism live independently after reaching adulthood"), and if it occurs later in life, then cured.

  
  
  Wouldn't that mean that people can go in and out of being mentally human due to the normal capacities of a few of those traits changing as newer, younger generations are introduced? It also changes over cultures. Would certain cultures then be considered non-human? Again, your lack of certain emotions (namely empathy) could put you into the category of someone with diminished human capacity in the aspect of social interaction among others. Obviously not to the extent of someone with Autism or other disabilities, but it's all relative. At what point should that relativity be used to dictate who meets the human condition if they are biologically human?
  
  
  Obviously what we both consider human differs, but to call other human beings "non-human" for something so trivial and relative in turn allows room for any and everyone, including yourself and myself, to not be considered human according to whomever's standards. Because your view is so outlandish to me, it's hard to guess who you would and wouldn't consider human.
  
  -In the knife situation, a person with Autism probably wouldn't jump in front of a knife being swung to someone who's related to the Autistic person. Does that lack of reason then make them reasonable as they aren't willing to sacrifice? Or, because they just don't understand the motivation, does it still make them less human? Does it make them reasonable and human?
  -In ancient civilizations where children were abandoned, what of the people who would claim the abandoned children? Were they nonhuman for their sympathy? Were they still human because they maintained their capabilities?
  
  I don't understand all of the motivation behind eliminating these "sub-par humans" other than an easy way of solving a problem (which would show incapability to overcome such problems). Do they really affect the lives of others who are able to live normally? I would think not.
  
  Edit:
  I've gotta get to class so I'm not going to reread your posts, but I don't think you did mention killing off those who are living with Autism or disabilities, and I'm pretty sure that in my posts I probably expressed something that would make it seem as though you did. You just remind me of some sort of dictator who wishes for a mass genocide or something, so it's hard to not incorporate that in my responses lol my b.