Ninjam's creations.(hopefully less monster-like)

• Shanghai wrote on 2013-04-17 02:29

  Quote from BizarreJuju;1068841:

  Wrong, all it takes is good perception and physical/shape analysis (and learning to hold a pencil). Problem with beginners drawing, "they guess" whats in front of them. They end up drawing off their memory rather than investigating and analyzing the shape/size of the object and person. Which results in oddly shaped face? that looks nothing like the model, its as simple as putting two diamond on a upside-down pentagon and a line for the mouth.

  
  
  I am a beginner though, so what can I say? :oops: I'm probably really inefficient at drawing things since I tend to draw a limb, then erase until I get it's shapes right. I should probably start with base shapes more then refine, though. Heck, I haven't even taken an art class in my entire life or did life-drawings nor do I plan on doing anything really special with art. It feels like a hobby to me.
• BizarreJuju wrote on 2013-04-17 03:55

  Quote from frozenwilderness;1069305:

  it's silly to give everyone B's if everyone gets a perfect 100, but at the same time, if everyone gets a perfect grade it means that something was wrong with their exam and it wasn't a fair exam, i.e. it was too easy
  
  the fact of the matter is, not everyone does give their 100% and therefore a curve exists. let's assume though that everyone DID give their all in everything they did.. then the competition an A student would be facing would be much greater than the original case. i'm just saying that it's to your benefit that there are others who don't do as well/put in as much effort.

  
  
  Only a lazy or a "Average-Joe" instructors easily give out an "A". The instructor exist to help and point out the errors the students make. However, even a "C-" is a passing grade to get to the next level.
  
  "A" is for over-achievers, did everthing in the criteria but pushed themselves further.
  "B" for people who done everything but didn't show any ambition toward their work. (which is a reasonable grade for most art students)
  "C" Half-assed or didn't bother trying.
  "F" Waste of time and space for the students that could have gotten into the class.
  
  I'm never thankful for people who get "C"s. I don't see why I should be thankful for them when the grading criteria is the same for everyone. At the same time the ones who are farrrrrrrrr behind in a 300+ drawing class, also pulls the entire class behind (due to the instructor required to spending more time with them). Its a boring comparison when dealing with clueless students who are only there to pass a class. Those class are not there for competition, its there to develop and learn skills. Its only a competition when the school hosts a competition or a portfolio review.
• Ashikoki wrote on 2013-04-17 04:03

  Quote from BizarreJuju;1069379:

  Those class are not there for competition, its there to develop and learn skills. Its only a competition when the school hosts a competition or a portfolio review.

  
  
  Any professor who doesn't understand this should not be teaching.
• Yakumo Yukari wrote on 2013-04-17 08:46

  Quote from BizarreJuju;1068841:

  Wrong, all it takes is good perception and physical/shape analysis (and learning to hold a pencil). Problem with beginners drawing, "they guess" whats in front of them. They end up drawing off their memory rather than investigating and analyzing the shape/size of the object and person. Which results in oddly shaped face? that looks nothing like the model, its as simple as putting two diamond on a upside-down pentagon and a line for the mouth.
  
  I'm not concern about if your classmates doing better or not, nor if you're doing some extra credit work (cause it looks like you really need it). What hurts me is how you're willing to do and turn in a "C-" work (which looks like a "F" to my view point). You're talking about a community college leveled Drawing 2 class, and I don't see how "practice" would even push you to such level. It's not all about practice, its habit and effort. You need to spend more time looking at yourself, analyze your face. Look at the distance between your forehead, eyes, nose, mouth chin.
  
  I'm sorry if I sound like an jerk, but that's how I critique my peers. Especially the ones who get to an upper division life-drawing class without any basic understanding of drawing. Living off barely passing with a measly C, calling themselves illustrator major, its a damn shame.
  
  Only exception, if your taking this class just to get elective credit (your not doing it to major art) or you have physical/mental problem that is affecting your control.

  
  
  
  0/10 would neg if I could.
  
  Apparently everyone worthwhile is an expert artist and we should all commit race-wide seppuku if we can't draw to your standards.
• Bakuryu wrote on 2013-04-17 13:34
  ^Hm? All I see is Bizzare encouraging Ninjam to try harder, to put habit and effort, as she put it. In a somewhat harsh way, but that's how life works, and art is not easy, a lot of people think it just comes from natural talent, but it takes times, a shit ton of effort, and starving with shitty jobs until you reach a skill level where people will pay you enough (unless you were lucky enough to not be demoralized by peers when you were a little kid wanting to be an artist).
  
  _
  
  Ninjam: You SERIOUSLY need to start analyzing, hell, try doing some tracing, it can help you a lot to understand shapes (but trace for that, and just for that, to analyze shapes when you seem to be having trouble with them), draw grids to analyze proportions on tracing paper, grab an anatomy book and learn why those shapes are the way they are.
  And never stop drawing, draw until your arm wants to die. Humans, and specifically heads, are probably one of the hardest things to draw, because we see them every-fucking day since we were 0, our brains have linked symbols to each aspect of the human head to quickly recognize what a head is, the thing is, when you draw, you have to FUCK YOUR BRAIN, and forget about these symbols, and see what's really there, what you really are seeing.
• frozenwilderness wrote on 2013-04-17 16:05

  Quote from BizarreJuju;1069379:

  Only a lazy or a "Average-Joe" instructors easily give out an "A". The instructor exist to help and point out the errors the students make. However, even a "C-" is a passing grade to get to the next level.
  
  "A" is for over-achievers, did everthing in the criteria but pushed themselves further.
  "B" for people who done everything but didn't show any ambition toward their work. (which is a reasonable grade for most art students)
  "C" Half-assed or didn't bother trying.
  "F" Waste of time and space for the students that could have gotten into the class.
  
  I'm never thankful for people who get "C"s. I don't see why I should be thankful for them when the grading criteria is the same for everyone. At the same time the ones who are farrrrrrrrr behind in a 300+ drawing class, also pulls the entire class behind (due to the instructor required to spending more time with them). Its a boring comparison when dealing with clueless students who are only there to pass a class. Those class are not there for competition, its there to develop and learn skills. Its only a competition when the school hosts a competition or a portfolio review.

  
  
  You're misinterpreting me, I'm not saying a class is there for the competition, I'm saying that competition exists, whether you like it or not. You can choose not to think about it in that manner, but it doesn't change the fact that the competition is there.
  
  The standard most college courses go by grading is on a normal bell-curve -- if the grades are all spread out flat, or at a strange skew, then usually it means that the assignments/coursework/exams are unfair in a manner. If mostly everyone got A's or mostly everyone got C's, it would either mean the course was too easy and didn't teach them much, or the course was too difficult and many students couldn't grasp the concepts. Curve grading is generally the best way to assess the effectiveness/fairness/difficulty of the course.
  
  You might criticize C students and D students but just remember that if there's a small percentage of them there, along with most students getting B's and a few students getting A's, it generally means that the course is fair.
  
  Anyway, it's basically exactly what you described -- a few overachievers, mostly B students who do what's required, and then C students who don't really try, that's basically exactly what a normal curve should look like.
• Ashikoki wrote on 2013-04-17 21:24

  Quote from frozenwilderness;1069590:

  You're misinterpreting me, I'm not saying a class is there for the competition, I'm saying that competition exists, whether you like it or not. You can choose not to think about it in that manner, but it doesn't change the fact that the competition is there.
  
  The standard most college courses go by grading is on a normal bell-curve -- if the grades are all spread out flat, or at a strange skew, then usually it means that the assignments/coursework/exams are unfair in a manner. If mostly everyone got A's or mostly everyone got C's, it would either mean the course was too easy and didn't teach them much, or the course was too difficult and many students couldn't grasp the concepts. Curve grading is generally the best way to assess the effectiveness/fairness/difficulty of the course.
  
  You might criticize C students and D students but just remember that if there's a small percentage of them there, along with most students getting B's and a few students getting A's, it generally means that the course is fair.
  
  Anyway, it's basically exactly what you described -- a few overachievers, mostly B students who do what's required, and then C students who don't really try, that's basically exactly what a normal curve should look like.

  
  
  And as someone who is done with college, I can tell you that your experience widely differs from mine in curving grades. I rarely saw it happen. If your curriculum is balanced well enough, your students wont need grade curving to see the average get B's.
  
  I don't even understand what this argument is about. Juju just has a pet peeve for those who aren't trying as hard, and wants to help. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to encourage people to try harder.
  
  "We should be thankful of everyone we can step on!" is the blunt version of what you said earlier. This is such an elitist attitude though.
• Ninjam wrote on 2013-04-17 21:37
  I said that Juju's critique wasn't too harsh, in fact it was perfect. When I say I need more practice, I'm not talking about mindlessly moving my arm on paper until something appears, I tried that during classes on notebook paper and that didn't help me draw better. I'm talking about picking a very specific thing and trying to get better at that. In this case, It is getting the human face and body correct and especially learning how to draw shadows and lighting.
  
  I think one of my problems now was actually the head-on view. I couldn't get proportions right at all and it felt too flat.
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/2C17A]

  
  
  It at least looks like a human this time. Ignoring everything below the neck, that is.
  Also not me, portrait drawing of another person.
  
  Oh, I'm not entirely sure why everyone's so worked up about grades. I honestly am more concerned about learning how to draw than if I get a C or a B in Drawing 2 at university. Grades go away, but getting better at drawing is something that will stay with me far into the future.
• frozenwilderness wrote on 2013-04-18 02:13

  Quote from Ashikoki;1069752:

  And as someone who is done with college, I can tell you that your experience widely differs from mine in curving grades. I rarely saw it happen. If your curriculum is balanced well enough, your students wont need grade curving to see the average get B's.
  
  I don't even understand what this argument is about. Juju just has a pet peeve for those who aren't trying as hard, and wants to help. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to encourage people to try harder.
  
  "We should be thankful of everyone we can step on!" is the blunt version of what you said earlier. This is such an elitist attitude though.

  
  
  that's not quite what i'm saying. if a student chooses not to put in effort, how is that anyone else's fault, and how are the others "stepping" on them? all i'm saying is, just be thankful that they're there. if those C students want help getting their grade up, they always have the option to do so. in ninjam's case, he clearly came for critique, and that's a good thing on his part, but there's no reason to bitch at the general mass of students who are ok with their C's. if they're pulling the whole class back, that's mostly the professor's fault because you shouldn't hold back an entire class just to help one student out. the professor should see the student after class or the student should go to office hours for 1 on 1 help.
  
  you basically just supported my exact point in saying "If your curriculum is balanced well enough, your students wont need grade curving to see the average get B's." in other words, if your curriculum isn't balanced or the course isn't fair, then the distribution would be skewed, and the majority will end up either getting A's or getting C's and lower. and if your curriculum is balanced and your course is fair, then the grades will naturally come out in a normal distribution without you having to do anything at all.
• Ninjam wrote on 2013-04-18 03:07
  Attempt number 3 turned out---Pretty bad too! I'm getting better at proportions(though not spelling it). This one my lips look horrible and the shading is still off, and my eyes are off and.... Ill just post it and show everyone. I just need to focus more on the details, everything went all downhill when I went from line to shading for some reason. Any pointers? Next drawing I do I will try sitting closer to the mirror, It worked for being able to read text in games with my poor eyesight so I'm assuming it will work here.
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/2Cb5y]

  [/SPOILER]
  
  I think I am improving on it. Followed the advice to more carefully study my face, it's difficult though and I need to try a few more times. I have a few more days until this is due so I will try again a few more times.
• Ashikoki wrote on 2013-04-18 03:44

  Quote from frozenwilderness;1069926:

  you basically just supported my exact point in saying "If your curriculum is balanced well enough, your students wont need grade curving to see the average get B's." in other words, if your curriculum isn't balanced or the course isn't fair, then the distribution would be skewed, and the majority will end up either getting A's or getting C's and lower. and if your curriculum is balanced and your course is fair, then the grades will naturally come out in a normal distribution without you having to do anything at all.

  
  
  I don't think so.
  
  The point I'm trying to make is that results are what matters, not the scaling of results. In a college course of, say for example, 20 people, it is not outlandish or improbable to have all 20 students try very hard and get A's. The course, in this case, is not flawed. If we had to scale this, we'd be having C students for getting 3~5 points less than the A student.
  
  College is a place to learn and prepare you for your career. If you aren't ready, you don't get good grades. Scaling is completely unnecessary.
• Ninjam wrote on 2013-04-18 04:02
  My teacher for Drawing 1 quit the big time college he was teaching for because they made him grade on a curve and he didn't like grading things like that. He gave out grades based on improvement, his theory was that the point of the class is to become better at drawing, so if you can show you are learning and applying the lessons you are doing good.
  
  Anyway, do grades really matter if all you want to do is learn? I dont care if I get an F in this class(ok, maybe a little) as long as I come out of it better at drawing that I was before. If it is a good course, which it is, then my grade will be based on how much I improve, which will be shown through the quality of my work. Which will improve through focused, deliberate practice.
• Enoshima Smoothie wrote on 2013-04-18 04:19

  Quote from Ninjam;1070022:

  My teacher for Drawing 1 quit the big time college he was teaching for because they made him grade on a curve and he didn't like grading things like that. He gave out grades based on improvement, his theory was that the point of the class is to become better at drawing, so if you can show you are learning and applying the lessons you are doing good.
  
  Anyway, do grades really matter if all you want to do is learn? I dont care if I get an F in this class(ok, maybe a little) as long as I come out of it better at drawing that I was before. If it is a good course, which it is, then my grade will be based on how much I improve, which will be shown through the quality of my work. Which will improve through focused, deliberate practice.

  
  
  Honestly my drawing 1 professor pulled this and it was awful. It catered towards the worst students and left the rest of us to stagnate. Since it was a class with people from various majors who had never drawn before they were getting high grades for improvement my friends and I were sitting with B-'s for not "improving".
  Also...I don't think you want to aim for an F in college that's kinda bad, but that's a whole 'nother story.
  
  I'm not very good at critiques since the same professor never let us give peer to peer critiques and never critiqued us, but I'm gonna give it a shot. I think you need to just take a picture of your face and either print it out or use a digital program and like grid out your face. Sometimes using grids and that shit helps people understand placement better than just basic observation. That's really all I got aside from the study harder and draw more thing.
• Ninjam wrote on 2013-04-18 06:14

  Quote from Enoshima Smoothie;1070029:

  Honestly my drawing 1 professor pulled this and it was awful. It catered towards the worst students and left the rest of us to stagnate. Since it was a class with people from various majors who had never drawn before they were getting high grades for improvement my friends and I were sitting with B-'s for not "improving".
  Also...I don't think you want to aim for an F in college that's kinda bad, but that's a whole 'nother story.
  
  I'm not very good at critiques since the same professor never let us give peer to peer critiques and never critiqued us, but I'm gonna give it a shot. I think you need to just take a picture of your face and either print it out or use a digital program and like grid out your face. Sometimes using grids and that shit helps people understand placement better than just basic observation. That's really all I got aside from the study harder and draw more thing.

  
  
  We had a small class, small enough that he gave everyone plenty of personalized instruction. Everyone came out better than they were before, even the ones who had been drawing their entire life.
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]

  [Image: http://puu.sh/2Cfl6]

  [/SPOILER]
  Drawing 1 final. Took 2 weeks, about 10+ hours. Done via photo+grid method, really helped me improve my skills. Also in charcoal.
  
  I am trying to learn to draw via observation, meaning I sit in front of a mirror, and with graphite, which is harder to get value with.
  That ear. I love that ear. I dont know why.
  My eyebrow was really weird back then too.
• BizarreJuju wrote on 2013-04-18 07:23

  Quote from Ninjam;1069983:

  Attempt number 3 turned out---Pretty bad too! [S]I'm getting better at proportions(though not spelling it)[/S]. This one my lips look horrible and the shading is still off, and my eyes are off and.... [S]Ill just post it and show everyone[/S]. [S] I just need to focus more on the details[/S], everything went all downhill when I went from line to shading for some reason. Any pointers? Next drawing I do I will try sitting closer to the mirror, [S]It worked for being able to read text in games with my poor eyesight so I'm assuming it will work here.[/S]
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/2Cb5y]

  [/SPOILER]
  
  [S]I think I am improving on it.[/S] Followed the advice to more carefully study my face, it's difficult though and I need to try a few more times. I have a few more days until this is due so I will try again a few more times.

  
  
  You have only changed a slight bit. But its not enough to call it a full improvement. You're still drawing huge shapes to identify "parts of a human?"
  

  
  
  • Round head
    
  • Long oval eyes
    
  • Very thick neck
    
  • No shoulder
    
  • Line to identify nose and mouth
    
  • A solid block of hair?
    

  
  You easily identified your errors but didn't take the time to go back and fix it. Should try questioning yourself while comparing your drawing to your face "does my drawing look anything like my face?".
  
  However I now have a full understanding of your limit in analyzing/identifying shapes, measurement, and estimating the distance between each landmarks (eyes to nose to lip to chin). Its harder for me to teach you through text since I'm not physically drawing with you or seeing what you're doing/thinking. Your secondary source to drawing human face will be through the internet/youtube. Despite some of their crummy drawings, they can teach you the simple basics of drawing and measuring faces. Another suggestion is if you are serious about improving your drawing, lay off the games and leisure...
  
  Also dont sit close to the mirror and if you cant see WEAR GLASSES!!!
  
  You said you're in a University? Don't tell me this whole "I don't mind failing" business, cause your just wasting money and time not passing a class.... Even if you're claiming to be "having fun", the whole "fun" excuse won't pass if the work you're producing doesn't meet the standards to move up to the next level. Instructors can't easily send/pass these students to bring conflict with upper-division courses. A curve is only awarded for students that can prove/show they have the potential and ambition to improve.
  
  By the way, what is your major? (this is my most serious question)
  
  

  Quote from Enoshima Smoothie;1070029:

  I think you need to just [S]take a picture of your face[/S] and either print it out or use a digital program and like grid out your face. Sometimes using grids and[S] that shit helps people understand placement better than just basic observation.[/S] That's really all I got aside from the study harder and draw more thing.

  
  
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"][video=youtube;umDr0mPuyQc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc[/video]
  I consider this technique as "cheating" or more like "copying" off a photography. Visual analysis isn't improved, just taking a shortcut without trying to analyze a model or self.
  
  The whole grid is used to transport an image onto paper without using digital tool. Very handy for people who can't draw off a 3D Model[/SPOILER]