[KR Main] Mabinogi Zero Update

• Zeo wrote on 2013-04-22 16:37
  Didn't our IS and Hailstorm got little buffed in third attempt at changing the magic formula when it came to live, though?
  
  It is still quite nerfed yeah but not THAT nerfed compared to second one since they regained their 650% multiplier back when having a full charge when this came to live.
• Milk wrote on 2013-04-22 16:41

  Quote from Zeo;1073150:

  Didn't our IS and Hailstorm got little buffed in third attempt at changing the magic formula when it came to live, though?
  
  It is still quite nerfed yeah but not THAT nerfed compared to second one since they regained their 650% multiplier back when having a full charge when this came to live.

  
  
  That's news to me, I haven't watched the live streams so I wouldn't know. The formula is still pretty clunky imo.
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-04-22 16:43

  Quote from Milk;1073148:

  I'm seriously not saying this to troll but Now I understand that you aren't bias about magic, you're just butthurt that some of your skills are getting a bit of a nerf because they added more ways for mages to dish out quicker and heavy damage. Instead of being a sour puss, Why not just admit that the good out way the bad with this update. IS&HAIL get nerfed everything else becomes more practical and buffed.

  
  
  You should know he and I were both devoted and almost purist mages back in the day, and we still have fairly maxed skill tabs. There's no place for childish accusations here.
• Zeo wrote on 2013-04-22 16:45

  Quote from Milk;1073151:

  That's news to me, I haven't watched the live streams so I wouldn't know. The formula is still pretty clunky imo.

  
  
  I believe some poster earlier in the thread said that IS, HS, and firebolt gained 650% multiplier back when the patch came to live.
  
  Which help make up a bit on magic patch. I was bitter when it first came, greatly nerfing Ice spear, Hailstorm, and Firebolt, but they tried to make it not as badly nerfed, so I'm quite happy about this though. Ice Spear, and Hailstorm will be able to hit more damage if you have end-game Magic Attack than what we can with current formula so... yeah.
  
  Like you said in the earlier post. I still cringe to that 30 minutes cooldown for Meteor Strike. 15 minutes cooldown would have been more reasonable.
  
  Like Zekkii said... I'm a mage and I was devoted (at the beginning too) as well, and I have almost maxxed out tab on Magic as well, so I was upset with the nerf for Ice spear, Hailstorm, and Firebolt as well.
• Milk wrote on 2013-04-22 17:22

  Quote from Zekkii;1073153:

  You should know he and I were both devoted and almost purist mages back in the day, and we still have fairly maxed skill tabs. There's no place for childish accusations here.

  
  
  

  Quote from Zeo;1073155:

  I believe some poster earlier in the thread said that IS, HS, and firebolt gained 650% multiplier back when the patch came to live.
  
  Which help make up a bit on magic patch. I was bitter when it first came, greatly nerfing Ice spear, Hailstorm, and Firebolt, but they tried to make it not as badly nerfed, so I'm quite happy about this though. Ice Spear, and Hailstorm will be able to hit more damage if you have end-game Magic Attack than what we can with current formula so... yeah.
  
  Like you said in the earlier post. I still cringe to that 30 minutes cooldown for Meteor Strike. 15 minutes cooldown would have been more reasonable.
  
  Like Zekkii said... I'm a mage and I was devoted (at the beginning too) as well, and I have almost maxxed out tab on Magic as well, so I was upset with the nerf for Ice spear, Hailstorm, and Firebolt as well.

  
  
  Firebolt was never nerfed too hard because of the bonus damage gained through the m weapon mastery and junk but I understand how the nerf bothered you guys.
  
  @Zekkii I wouldnt know that you guys were mages because perfectio calls himself a martial artist in his talent section and you don't have a talent labeled. Perfectio just seems to be way to negative about everything this update has to offer in general so id be hard to notice that he was a devoted mage.
  
  @Zeo Oh that's good news! So all in all I assume that this path is just a straight buff to mage in general. Im curious to know the exact formula to how firebolt damage is calculated now.
• FallenDanny wrote on 2013-04-22 18:09
  I hope they revise the ap cost for all the magic skills.
  
  That's pretty much my only problem with this update is that it expects us to pour out even more ap. :hot2:
• xsonicx262 wrote on 2013-04-22 18:30
  Did i just see an elf with black hair!?! Riding the scooter? O.O
• Howhurl wrote on 2013-04-22 18:51
  lol...they still haven't designed the hybrid talent icons (aside from druid)
  
  then again, i never use the icons in the first place, so eh
• Milk wrote on 2013-04-22 18:52

  Quote from FallenDanny;1073193:

  I hope they revise the ap cost for all the magic skills.
  
  That's pretty much my only problem with this update is that it expects us to pour out even more ap. :hot2:

  
  
  Well they just added a 500 ap skill to magic so i don't think they are :x. But they really should for ice spear at least D: even shaving something like 50 ap on that skill would make it more worth it to me.
• Perfectio wrote on 2013-04-22 19:00
  To put in perspective when magic was balanced with other skillsets, magic was capable of critting for 10-15k. Meanwhile, endgame melee WM critted for 1.5k-2k and Crash Shot critted for even less except on the target. Fighter and Puppet and Bard did not exist. Also Genesis made physical combat way faster than before.
  
  So just on splash damage alone, ignoring speed, endgame magic did upwards of 5-8x physical skillset damage. Endgame Ice Spear did roughly 5x endgame physical skillset damage and the explosion splash magnifed its damage output while it had the fastest cast time.
  
  Post-Genesis, Windmill has closed to 1/3 of top end magic AOE while Crash has closed to 1/4. Physical skillsets also have puppets to work with which deals endgame magic damage with little load time. And crucially, Windmill has gotten 800% faster (.8 secs to 0) and Crash Shot 3000% faster (3 secs to 0) anf the cooldowns don't hurt because they have other skills available.
  
  So just to make up the damage, magic would need to gain roughly 2x damage from its current position, AND get a buff to instant cast on top of it.
• Milk wrote on 2013-04-22 19:25

  Quote from Perfectio;1073215:

  To put in perspective when magic was balanced with other skillsets, magic was capable of critting for 10-15k. Meanwhile, endgame melee WM critted for 1.5k-2k and Crash Shot critted for even less except on the target. Fighter and Puppet and Bard did not exist. Also Genesis made physical combat way faster than before.
  
  So just on splash damage alone, ignoring speed, endgame magic did upwards of 5-8x physical skillset damage. Endgame Ice Spear did roughly 5x endgame physical skillset damage and the explosion splash magnifed its damage output while it had the fastest cast time.
  
  Post-Genesis, Windmill has closed to 1/3 of top end magic AOE while Crash has closed to 1/4. Physical skillsets also have puppets to work with which deals endgame magic damage with little load time. And crucially, Windmill has gotten 800% faster (.8 secs to 0) and Crash Shot 3000% faster (3 secs to 0) anf the cooldowns don't hurt because they have other skills available.
  
  So just to make up the damage, magic would need to gain roughly 2x damage from its current position, AND get a buff to instant cast on top of it.

  
  
  Well while they did make certain skills faster increasing the dps and more usable they did not really buff damage of any skills really just smash.
  Smash got a 50% buff and thats about it for skill buffs.
  Crash Shot while the execution for crashshot is faster the cooldown makes it so that you can no longer spam it for dps -same with ar-, and Windmill is actually slower than what it was pre Genesis but I do enjoy not losing 10% of my hp every windmil anymore. Magnums dps is now amazing/ it is actually a viable skill for humans etc. Smash is now more spam able and new dps capabilities were added for all none mage classes.
  
  The mages only started to fall off when reforges and as more skills that gave out str and dex came out. Currently Int has hardly any influence on how much damage magic skills actually do because. So as the other classes gained str and dex through skills and talents mages didn't see much of a change in what they can do.
  
  Once you step into some elite missions and lord missions they lose the ability to one shot all the things but I feel like just adding free damage to them and making them do 26k fireballs crits instead of 13k crits isnt a good way to go about doing it.
  They should maybe add a double cast skill that allows you to sometime charge 1 extra charge at times to maybe decrease the amount of set up time and dps mages can dish out or maybe giving them even more reliable ways for them to defend themselves against multi aggro.
• Johny wrote on 2013-04-22 19:35

  Quote from Perfectio;1073101:

  
  
  I'm being negative because magic is still god-awful compared to every other skillset, even alchemy (which got meaningful buffs) It's like a shit sandwich with a thin slice of ham and some ketchup added, sure a shit sandwich with ham and ketchup is better than a shit sandwich with no ham or ketchup, but the point of it is that it's still a shit sandwich.
  
  Also I forgot to add that the shit sandwich costs as much as the 5 star feast that is the physically oriented skillsets. (AP to cap magic is roughly same as the AP to cap melee/range/fighter in terms of skills)

  
  
  Look, most of us mages are annoyed that physical classes hit harder than magic, but we settle with what we have. You seem to be shooting down magic before you even give it a try. In mabinogi, being mage was never easy, and probably never will. I have yet to play a game where playing as mage was easy. At least in mabi, however, you can cover the weaknesses in magic with other skill. In mabinogi, you don't choose a class and are bound to it. No you can choose any combination of skills you want and make up your own skill.
  
  So if you may, stop giving magic such a bad taste just because you prefer everything else to magic. You assume all people are endgame when most of us barely make it to the "veteran" phase. Only a handful of us are true "master" gamers that spend a lot of time and money to get the best of the best of everything. Surprisingly enough, a lot of people are still amazed when they see the kind of damage magic can do on its own. It's only after people start to ramble about endgame crap that people begin getting a bad taste on magic.
  
  If you really, really dislike magic, then use puppetry if you so believe it is that much better than magic. But ranting about how bad magic is compared to everything else isn't going to make magic any better. Calling magic weak and useless isn't going to make magic any stronger or useful. And complaining to us isn't going to get anything changed. We are just players that are affected just as much as you are in these kinds of changes. We just look at things differently. If you think magic useless then fine, but don't coerce people to think the same way you do. It's not going to happen.
• Perfectio wrote on 2013-04-22 20:36

  Quote from Milk;1073222:

  Well while they did make certain skills faster increasing the dps and more usable they did not really buff damage of any skills really just smash.

  
  
  

  Smash got a 50% buff and thats about it for skill buffs.

  
  
  It also charges INSTANTLY. Why do you keep ignoring this?
  
  

  Crash Shot while the execution for crashshot is faster the cooldown makes it so that you can no longer spam it for dps -same with ar-, and Windmill is actually slower than what it was pre Genesis but I do enjoy not losing 10% of my hp every windmil anymore.
  

  
  
  Crash Shot is no longer spammable, sure, but you can use OTHER skills while the skill is cooling down.
  Windmill in practice has more like a 1 second cooldown for the same reason Magnum has zero cooldown.
  
  

  The mages only started to fall off when reforges and as more skills that gave out str and dex came out. Currently Int has hardly any influence on how much damage magic skills actually do because. So as the other classes gained str and dex through skills and talents mages didn't see much of a change in what they can do.

  
  
  That actually came before Genesis, mages were falling off before that, especially with pre-enchanted accessories and weapons. Also even NPC reforges and the possibility of ele 2 represented a significant power increase.
  
  

  Once you step into some elite missions and lord missions they lose the ability to one shot all the things but I feel like just adding free damage to them and making them do 26k fireballs crits instead of 13k crits isnt a good way to go about doing it.

  
  
  And why not? Physical skillsets get free damage ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
  
  
  I mean, reforges, bone dragon chips, overture, new OP weapons, new OP skills, mechanics changes - even a gimmick skill like Transformation Mastery just ended up as another source of free STR.
  
  

  They should maybe add a double cast skill that allows you to sometime charge 1 extra charge at times to maybe decrease the amount of set up time and dps mages can dish out or maybe giving them even more reliable ways for them to defend themselves against multi aggro.

  
  
  A viable compromise to the current instacast mess.
  
  

  In mabinogi, being mage was never easy, and probably never will. I have yet to play a game where playing as mage was easy.

  
  
  You've been playing how long? Magic was quite arguably the best endgame class for several generations. Remember when Zyrus was the best and wealthiest player in Alexina, and possibly NA Mabi as a mage, because he could solo content most other players couldn't do as a party? Now, it was by no means easy, but you were rewarded for it. I started ranking magic not because it was quick, easy damage - but because magic offered the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
  
  

  So if you may, stop giving magic such a bad taste just because you prefer everything else to magic. You assume all people are endgame when most of us barely make it to the "veteran" phase. Only a handful of us are true "master" gamers that spend a lot of time and money to get the best of the best of everything. Surprisingly enough, a lot of people are still amazed when they see the kind of damage magic can do on its own. It's only after people start to ramble about endgame crap that people begin getting a bad taste on magic.
  

  
  
  If people were so amazed at magic, then why do you hardly see anyone, you know, using it? 90% of the playerbase fall into the physical skillsets and many of the long-time mages have quit for other skillsets. And you're essentially arguing that "Hey, it sucks but it impresses average players with flashy damage numbers so that makes up for it!"
  
  

  If you think magic useless then fine, but don't coerce people to think the same way you do. It's not going to happen.

  
  
  Again, if you're going to wax rhapsodic over how great spamming bolts to slightly lower IC cooldown, or doing 2x damage once every 3 mins or so, or a 530 AP version of Adinel is, then I have the right to tell you how wrong I think you are. After all, this is a discussion forum right? So if you don't wanna discuss the relative merits of magic with me, then don't talk about how fucking awesome it is to be slightly LESS comparatively bad because Devcat gave you some attention.
  
  And magic isn't "useless" per se - it's just a slower, less efficient, and way way way way more costly version of every fucking thing else.
  
  Now, if you don't have any actual refutations of my points, then can you please refrain from attacking me because you're out of arguments?
• Milk wrote on 2013-04-22 20:55
  Well while they did make certain skills faster increasing the dps <---- I did not ignore the fact that its more faster now. Cant just spam smash smash smash unless you one shot the mob you targeted, or they choose to load defense instead of running at you anyways
  
  No one is arguing about magic being lack luster atm when you step into the end game.
  I'm not going to repeat myself. If you want to continue being butthurt and negative then go ahead.
  
  I for one and looking forward to all the new skills and the buff to magic in general.
• uoi100 wrote on 2013-04-22 21:11
  so how much does a mage with 384 magic attack do with cc+4 firebolts? I don't know if this has been answered xD.