(New) Infraction System (re)explained

• Ashikoki wrote on 2013-05-10 17:11

  Quote from SKochiya;1085871:

  [S]Can I PM you for date as well?[/S]

  
  
  Sanae a slut
• SKochiya wrote on 2013-05-10 17:19

  Quote from Ashikoki;1085884:

  Sanae a slut

  
  
  Oh.... okay...
  
  :gloom:
• Episkey wrote on 2013-05-10 17:24
  Ah. These rules make it a little bit clearer ... but I don't really approve the whole severe infraction expiration concept.
  
  I thought the idea was, doing something that deems a severe infraction was irreversible. To be fair, if a person accumulates 28 points via severe infractions alone ... then there is something wrong here.
  
  Also, there's a bit of a loophole if you let severe infractions expire. Look carefully at the ban durations, specifically the 24 point length.
  
  

  Quote from Ashikoki;1085884:

  Sanae a slut

  
  
  She's a good girl, now answer her requests before she invokes the art of summoning a miracle via another miracle.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-05-10 18:13

  Quote from Episkey;1085899:

  She's a good girl

  
  
  

  [Image: https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR19CRz6H31u7A_CsZ844GvPEaOZcIZ49AIaMmkgTJ733ctB7gr]

  
  
  

  Quote from Episkey;1085899:

  Ah. These rules make it a little bit clearer ... but I don't really approve the whole severe infraction expiration concept.
  
  I thought the idea was, doing something that deems a severe infraction was irreversible. To be fair, if a person accumulates 28 points via severe infractions alone ... then there is something wrong here.
  
  Also, there's a bit of a loophole if you let severe infractions expire. Look carefully at the ban durations, specifically the 24 point length.

  
  
  Perhaps but forgiveness for good behavior I think is a very good idea. I mean people can change.
• Episkey wrote on 2013-05-10 18:29

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1085916:

  Perhaps but forgiveness for good behavior I think is a very good idea. I mean people can change.

  
  
  I'm all about forgiveness, it's a wonderful thing to forgive another person.
  
  But forgiveness doesn't remove the penalty of a person's actions. I can forgive someone who trolls/harasses me, but if the actions they did were severe enough to warrant a major infraction then they should still have that penalty remain.
  
  If it's not so severe and can be remedied with "good behavior", that's a minor infraction.
  
  Now then - if the Moderation Staff wants to be merciful and spare people the permanency of their negative consequences, that's another story. However, it won't work - due to how the current infraction system is in place ... mainly again due to the "24 points ban period" loophole.
  
  To sum it up, the argument I'm trying to present is that good behavior shouldn't be able to remove major infractions - only minor infractions.
  
  If they really have changed, then the points accumulated via a major infraction shouldn't even be of any concern. Right?~
  
  
  Also, if I may take a more cynical route ... What if I don't want to forgive the offender?
  
  Why should the Moderation Staff be able to say - in my place:
  
  "Oh, someone did X,Y, and Z and got a major infraction. While it was quite the terrible thing they did against you, they will have a tabula rasa in 180 days. So yeah, we (the system/Staff) will eventually forgive them of their actions. Why you ask? Because people can change."
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-05-10 18:30

  Quote from Episkey;1085925:

  I'm all about forgiveness, it's a wonderful thing to forgive another person.
  
  But forgiveness doesn't remove the penalty of a person's actions. I can forgive someone who trolls/harasses me, but if the actions they did were severe enough to warrant a major infraction then they should still have that penalty remain.
  
  If it's not so severe and can be remedied with "good behavior", that's a minor infraction.
  
  Now then - if the Moderation Staff wants to be merciful and spare people the permanency of their negative consequences, that's another story. However, it won't work - due to how the current infraction system is in place ... mainly again due to the "24 points ban period" loophole.
  
  To sum it up, the argument I'm trying to present is that good behavior shouldn't be able to remove major infractions - only minor infractions.
  
  If they really have changed, then the points accumulated via a major infraction shouldn't even be of any concern. Right?~
  
  
  Also, if I may take a more cynical route ... What if I don't want to forgive the offender?
  
  Why should the Moderation Staff be able to say - in my place:
  
  "Oh, someone did X,Y, and Z and got a major infraction. While it was quite the terrible thing they did against you, they will have a tabula rasa in 180 days. So yeah, we (the system/Staff) will eventually forgive them of their actions. Why you ask? Because people can change."

  
  
  So you want to forgive them but god forbid that they've had a nice record and then do a minor misbehavior that they get banned due to the auto infraction banning system? You do realize the down side of never expiring infractions right?
• Ashikoki wrote on 2013-05-10 18:41
  From a staff's perspective, as someone who can see everyone's infractions, I have to say that letting them expire is just better. And the other staff didn't seem to disagree.
  
  We have a lot of really good members who have "severe" infractions in their history right now. Some that were given out half a year ago. They've been pretty clean, or at least not making any huge trouble. There is simply no reason to have them sit at like 13 infractions forever because of this.
  
  6 months is sufficient time to be active on the site without causing trouble for us to decide that you're good for a clean slate. Though I do see what you mean by the 24 infraction ban period being just as long as the infraction expiration. I didn't consider this when making the changes. We have a log book for members who get banned whether it be directly or via infractions, and moderators have the ability to make custom infractions (points, duration), so it shouldn't be a problem to create a 360 day 0 point tag to members who get banned for 6 months so that their infraction history lasts 180 days upon no longer being banned.
• Episkey wrote on 2013-05-10 18:59

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1085927:

  So you want to forgive them but god forbid that they've had a nice record and then do a minor misbehavior that they get banned due to the auto infraction banning system? You do realize the down side of never expiring infractions right?

  
  
  I think that's how most legal systems work?
  
  When I view a major infraction, it's something that a person has done that is severely wrong. Major infractions aren't handed out like candy, even the most offensive (relative to the individual) statements can be given minor infractions at times.
  
  If ... someone does a major infraction, that's quite severe. 180 days is a slap on the wrist, unless ...
  
  

  Quote from Ashikoki;1085932:

  6 months is sufficient time to be active on the site without causing trouble for us to decide that you're good for a clean slate. Though I do see what you mean by the 24 infraction ban period being just as long as the infraction expiration. I didn't consider this when making the changes. We have a log book for members who get banned whether it be directly or via infractions, and moderators have the ability to make custom infractions (points, duration), so it shouldn't be a problem to create a 360 day 0 point tag to members who get banned for 6 months so that their infraction history lasts 180 days upon no longer being banned.

  
  
  If this is done, then I'll be somewhat alright. Although I still think there should be some lasting impression on severe infractions, maybe instead of all the points going away - half of the infraction points going away seems a bit fair.
  
  If the person in question is indeed engaging in good behavior.
  
  
  

  Quote from Ashikoki;1085932:

  From a staff's perspective, as someone who can see everyone's infractions, I have to say that letting them expire is just better. And the other staff didn't seem to disagree.
  
  We have a lot of really good members who have "severe" infractions in their history right now. Some that were given out half a year ago. They've been pretty clean, or at least not making any huge trouble. There is simply no reason to have them sit at like 13 infractions forever because of this.

  
  
  From a user's perspective, as someone who has to report/deal with members that gain severe infractions, I personally have to say that having their earned infractions remain on record is much better. Since no one can force another individual to type out something that breaks the rules, the punishment for breaking those rules (if deemed to be major/severe) must be ... well, major and severe.
  
  Every member of Mabination must abide by the rules and regulations of this site, when a person breaks one of those rules - well then they have a penalty. The Staff is actually eschewing permanent bans, with the concept of these temporary ones. You are giving people many opportunites to clean their record, so to speak. If their actions were minor, then lo! After 90 days, that will be gone.
  
  However, to think that something as major as severe flaming/insulting can be removed on the concept of "they aren't making any trouble now" ... that makes me feel a bit ill. It's borderline insulting to those members who have to deal with the cases that lead to major infractions.
  
  You can't whisk away major infractions away with a concept like good behavior, if they are acting "good" - then they won't do something as serious ever again. The concept of time doesn't work either, because people can take extended hiatuses from Mabination without ever changing their behavior.
  
  Immaturity/Youth? Bullshit. You agreed to the rules, follow them.
  
  
  Well. I guess I just figured out the problem I have with all of this.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-05-10 19:03

  Quote from Episkey:

  
  You can't whisk away major infractions away with a concept like good behavior, if they are acting "good" - then they won't do something as serious ever again.
  

  
  
  Right and if they do a minor offense they should receive a ban immediately right? Cause that's what would happen if the major infractions never expired.
• Episkey wrote on 2013-05-10 19:09

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1085944:

  Right and if they do a minor offense they should receive a ban immediately right? Cause that's what would happen if the major infractions never expired.

  
  
  But after their ban period, the minor infraction would expire. So it's not completely permanent.
  Unless you are talking about being at 26 points - but then I have to question about the severe infractions a person has done in order to reach that high.
  
  They should be extremely careful of what they say then, if you are in that scenario. It's not like you are talking, you're typing. You can collect your words while typing; I myself had to delete about 3 paragraphs in total because of how fervorous I was getting.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-05-10 19:14

  Quote from Episkey;1085949:

  But after their ban period, the minor infraction would expire. So it's not completely permanent.
  Unless you are talking about being at 26 points - but then I have to question about the severe infractions a person has done in order to reach that high.
  
  They should be extremely careful of what they say then, if you are in that scenario. It's not like you are talking, you're typing. You can collect your words while typing; I myself had to delete about 3 paragraphs in total because of how fervorous I was getting.

  
  
  Well what I'm getting at is that even if the person had severe infractions and has been good for a year or two, they shouldn't automatically get a ban after doing something minor.
• Episkey wrote on 2013-05-10 19:18

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1085952:

  Well what I'm getting at is that even if the person had severe infractions and has been good for a year or two, they shouldn't automatically get a ban after doing something minor.

  
  
  But then there are warnings, which come before minor infractions.
  
  

  Quote from Ashikoki;1085700:

  From now on, your first offense (with the exception to excessive and unyielding behavior) will be given a warning in the category of violation. Warnings do not add infraction points, and will expire in 90 days. If your infractions are expired by the time you violate those rules again, you will simply start over with a warning.

  
  
  So I mean, even if a person has past severe infractions, if they do something that isn't severe ... they will get a warning first - not a minor infraction.
  
  And the warning expires over time too! Look at that.~
  
  Perfect way to deal with slip-ups.
• Milk wrote on 2013-05-10 19:57

  Quote from Hanna;1085848:

  I remember when I was 1 point away from a 6 month ban
  gooood times

  
  
  Why you such a bad girl hanna D:
• Cucurbita wrote on 2013-05-10 19:59
  Yeah I had a whopping, single, 10 point infraction, which sent me from a completely clean slate to an instant 3 day ban a few months ago.
  
  It was set to never expire.
  
  I was sitting on the edge since then.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-05-10 20:08

  Quote from Cucurbita;1085975:

  Yeah I had a whopping, single, 10 point infraction, which sent me from a completely clean slate to an instant 3 day ban a few months ago.
  
  It was set to never expire.
  
  I was sitting on the edge since then.

  
  
  Which is the main issue I have. That's a little silly I feel. I mean if these changes go through I think this will solve issues like this.