[Mabinogi-KR] Magic Fighters Rejoice! Merlin's Suilien Knuckles!

• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-05-19 05:25

  Quote from Slayerj;1091302:

  I like how no one is happy about what this thing can due to how less powerful it is. If it was any stronger you'd all be shouting OP and hating it still. :-/

  
  
  Too OP, needs nerf.
• Sepia wrote on 2013-05-19 06:06
  I'll just wait and hope I can get my hands on them to see for myself.
• Perfectio wrote on 2013-05-19 06:48
  The problem is that combos = / = effectiveness. Yes there are some interesting combos you can pull with the knuckle. Do those combos make you fight more efficient? Does adding the ability to cast magic into your skillset add anything to your character's output? Especially since magic doesn't synergize with fighter combo-wise at al (they synergize stat-wise and situation-wise but not really in the sense of comboing one into the other)?
  
  I mean, you would honestly think nobody in this except a few have played either skillset, if they think magic seamlessly combos into fighter. Maybe if you could spam shockwave like WM or such.
  
  It's clear that DevCat doesn't want to put together an actual fix for magic so they just keep throwing gimmicks and hoping people shut up.
• Slayerj wrote on 2013-05-19 06:53
  I'll take fun > effectiveness most of the time~ lol.
  
  Though it's slightly true about what you say they're doing with magic. Though I saw a KR player using magic to take on FC1 Elite and...she did very well with a CC4 fire wand in one hand, and a trinity staff in the other. Only used movement cast like 1-3 times or something like that, though...she still chugged pots far too much for my liking. T,T
• ironwoman wrote on 2013-05-19 20:42

  Quote from Slayerj;1091725:

  I'll take fun > effectiveness most of the time~ lol.
  
  Though it's slightly true about what you say they're doing with magic. Though I saw a KR player using magic to take on FC1 Elite and...she did very well with a CC4 fire wand in one hand, and a trinity staff in the other. Only used movement cast like 1-3 times or something like that, though...she still chugged pots far too much for my liking. T,T

  
  
  Hence why we don't like magic, too much pots, added with fighter, it's even more.
• Milk wrote on 2013-05-19 22:37
  Im still getting the knuckles. And making them as an optional weapon. But if I need straight 1v1 damage instead I can always just use the knuckles I have now.
  
  I learned that here on the Nation its hard to make an argument for something being viable because of what it offers. If people don't see a straight damage increase then they tent to get mad and label it as crap. Like how people were angry with the magic update before because the buff didn't come in a straight "here's more free damage for you" form.
  
  Instead of trying to convince people that its useful, just take it for yourself and enjoy spamming shockwave and insta cast spells with your "hermit staff fighter knuckles".
• ironwoman wrote on 2013-05-19 22:49
  I never said it was crap.
  
  Of course it's useful. The biggest perk of this is allowing players to have 3 skillsets.
  
  I just still think it's overrated, and something that I probably won't use, especially seeing as I mainly use 2 skill sets, and I still use one more heavily than the other.
  
  People don't like the fact that there is no specific damage increase because the truth is, higher damage > more combos. If you can wipe out a enemies with one strong skillset, you don't need to do the extra work with another. To put it simply: would I need fighter if my magic can take out bunch of mobs in one shot? Probably not. IMO, best solution is to max out your gears, equip for one skill set. In this case, say the player could wipe out everything with fireball, hailstorm, etc, then the player doesn't need heavy gears for the other skillset, w/e it may be. To me, what this knuckle does is weakens your potential ability with magic/fighter, while you could be dominating enemies with set-up geared for one skill set. And frankly, I'd agree with this. If you're truly end-game player that don't need too much enchant for magic, then I could see someone using Puppet/melee/range/gunner and these knuckles together, since the first skill set would be their primary anyways.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2013-05-19 22:49

  Quote from Milk;1091970:

  Im still getting the knuckles. And making them as an optional weapon. But if I need straight 1v1 damage instead I can always just use the knuckles I have now.
  
  I learned that here on the Nation its hard to make an argument for something being viable because of what it offers. If people don't see a straight damage increase then they tent to get mad and label it as crap. Like how people were angry with the magic update before because the buff didn't come in a straight "here's more free damage for you" form.
  
  Instead of trying to convince people that its useful, just take it for yourself and enjoy spamming shockwave and insta cast spells with your "hermit staff fighter knuckles".

  
  
  That's just people making a one-sided argument. It tends to happen.
  
  The Merlin Knuckles are good but they don't completely over-centralize the meta game, which is something that a couple of the other new weapons can boast. I would rather the knuckles improve flexibility and receive flak for it, than for them to dominate everything else.
• Kyubey wrote on 2013-05-19 23:50
  Im not a magic hybrid but if i was i wouldn't combo adv magic with a 1vs1 skillset... mainly when adv magic makes all mobs hit aggro the player
• Perfectio wrote on 2013-05-20 00:35
  The problem is that people are theorycrafting combos on paper without taking into account efficiency, practicality, flexibility, resource usage, and then when people point this out using evidence, they just fall back on >fun. Fun is highly subjective though, so it's not an argument, it's really a way to say "fk u idc what you think or what evidence you have".
  
  The people arguing for the knuckles have ignored MULTIPLE logical counterpoints (similar to how people treated the magic renewal) such as the practical efficiency of the theorized combos, the opportunity cost versus other methods of offense, the availability of these combos (it honestly seems like people expect to have instant cast up always when needed), etc.
  
  
  And as for 3 skillsets, the knuckle nerfs your magic significantly and your fighter noticeably. While that makes it "balanced", not much else in Mabinogi is. Like ironwoman said, better to dominate in one skillset than be mediocre in two. That's the old hybridization argument in modern form where "combos" became a rationale for spreading AP in multiple skillsets, lowering overall effectiveness.
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-05-20 03:05
  There isn't any good magic + fighter combos. Get at me.
• Kenero wrote on 2013-05-20 03:12

  Quote from Zekkii;1092140:

  There isn't any good magic + fighter combos. Get at me.

  
  
  It really depends on one's creativity and need for the situation.
  
  It may not be situations you find yourself all the time, but once found it will become common place, which is why I am hesitant to say that there isn't any possible magic + fighter combo.
  
  It was thanks to thinking outside the box that some combos were born, an example below:
  
  [video=youtube;nRuAFueuaOo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRuAFueuaOo[/video]
  
  Of course today, this seems pretty much "common sense", but in the time it was created, it was something new and unexpected.
  
  Would you encounter a lot of situations that requires the use of thunder + barrier spikes through doors? Not really
  Would it still be an option when the correct situation is applied? Yes
  
  
  Which is to say, maybe these knuckles will unlock interesting combos, combined with a third skillset that wouldn't be possible before, or the very least, something that couldn't be born because of the delays in weapon switching. The question is whether it will be something that one day people will consider "common sense".
• Milk wrote on 2013-05-20 04:29
  Well of course you wouldn't want to hit a whole room with adv spells then try to take them out with fighter. But being able to use shock wave and insta cast chain cast thunde in those moments when you do get multied seems like a nice boost to me, but like i said im not gonna waste my time explaining it to people who want to remain skeptical till it actually comes out over here.
• Perfectio wrote on 2013-05-20 12:45

  Quote from Kenero;1092143:

  
  
  Of course today, this seems pretty much "common sense", but in the time it was created, it was something new and unexpected.
  
  Would you encounter a lot of situations that requires the use of thunder + barrier spikes through doors? Not really
  Would it still be an option when the correct situation is applied? Yes

  
  
  You're still ignoring opportunity cost. Why invest money and resources in an ultra-situational combo weapons with questionable benefits when I can invest the same resources in something I know works? It's not like these knuckles are free. Especially one that makes you worse overall in exchange for being able to do a few extra combos.
  
  Again as I said, this attitude has been one of the things that are a major pitfall to low and midranged players - the skill freedom of Mabinogi making people opt for "creativity" and "combos" over raw efficiency - and Mabinogi is a game about efficiency, not trying to get all cute with combos.
  
  To use an NFL analogy, one running back dances around and uses a lot of creative moves in the backfield to evade rushers, while the other running back makes one cut and hits the hole. The first RB might from time to time pull off a pretty creative move and get a lot of yardage in a given situation, but the other running back is more consistent and breaks the big runs just as often, and can still be creative when the situation calls for it, as opposed to focusing his entire game about being "creative". This is the situation we're in with these knuckles - the detractors point out that the knuckle makes your offensive output less consistent while the people defending them cite "combos" and "versatility" as factors. Combos and versatility are not ends in themselves, they are means to an end (i.e having a more effective character).
  
  And at this point, you're not even theorizing combos, you're just arguing that someone might make a combo for it so it's good.
  
  

  But being able to use shock wave and insta cast chain cast thunde in those moments when you do get multied seems like a nice boost to me

  
  
  Yes, I agree that having Shockwave as an escape option is nice. Is it worth the significant loss in damage the knuckles entail (especially if you have an AOE pet - and most high-end players in NA found a way to get one, and EVERYONE in KR has an Ice Dragon due to Hot Time) ? Also with Thunder, you're AGAIN assuming you're always going to have instacast on the board. Guys, it's Final Hit, not Assault Slash. I might as well argue that Gunner is always going to have Frenzy on the board.
  
  

  but like i said im not gonna waste my time explaining it to people who want to remain skeptical till it actually comes out over here.

  \\\
  
  translation: i don't actually have logical counterpoints so i'm just going to bow out while trying to save face
• Kenero wrote on 2013-05-20 15:19

  Quote from Perfectio;1092403:

  You're still ignoring opportunity cost. Why invest money and resources in an ultra-situational combo weapons with questionable benefits when I can invest the same resources in something I know works? It's not like these knuckles are free. Especially one that makes you worse overall in exchange for being able to do a few extra combos.
  
  Again as I said, this attitude has been one of the things that are a major pitfall to low and midranged players - the skill freedom of Mabinogi making people opt for "creativity" and "combos" over raw efficiency - and Mabinogi is a game about efficiency, not trying to get all cute with combos.
  
  To use an NFL analogy, one running back dances around and uses a lot of creative moves in the backfield to evade rushers, while the other running back makes one cut and hits the hole. The first RB might from time to time pull off a pretty creative move and get a lot of yardage in a given situation, but the other running back is more consistent and breaks the big runs just as often, and can still be creative when the situation calls for it, as opposed to focusing his entire game about being "creative". This is the situation we're in with these knuckles - the detractors point out that the knuckle makes your offensive output less consistent while the people defending them cite "combos" and "versatility" as factors. Combos and versatility are not ends in themselves, they are means to an end (i.e having a more effective character).
  
  And at this point, you're not even theorizing combos, you're just arguing that someone might make a combo for it so it's good.
  
  
  
  Yes, I agree that having Shockwave as an escape option is nice. Is it worth the significant loss in damage the knuckles entail (especially if you have an AOE pet - and most high-end players in NA found a way to get one, and EVERYONE in KR has an Ice Dragon due to Hot Time) ? Also with Thunder, you're AGAIN assuming you're always going to have instacast on the board. Guys, it's Final Hit, not Assault Slash. I might as well argue that Gunner is always going to have Frenzy on the board.
  
  \\\
  
  translation: i don't actually have logical counterpoints so i'm just going to bow out while trying to save face

  
  
  Money varies by individuals and efficiency values are different.
  
  The ability of a combo is there, I never said that it would be easy to obtain. I even pointed out that the ability to use three skillsets efficiently is very AP heavy.
  
  But the option still weighs in that if you need to do a combo, it's there, whether you need to do it or is most efficient is a different issue.
  
  A mid-game or early-game player may not find any value in this knuckles and end-game players won't find any actual needed application for more than one skillset, but that varies by individuals.
  
  Now the question is: Does it need to be efficient to be useful? You seem so mocked up in efficiency that you overlook the potential usefulness of knuckles.
  
  Now I will use myself as an example:
  
  As a Human Player nearing 10,000 total, I am proud to say that my stats and skillsets are pretty much neatly developed.
  
  I own numerous elemental weapons, ranging from Lv.6 HLC, to Lv.6 HLB, to a lv.6 Knight Lance, and Lv.2 and Lv.3 Elemental Weapons (including the Sword of Elsinore), an elemental ego1h with maxed out strength, and a full set of fully enchanted equipment, including but not limited to rare hard-to-obtained steel needle and oblivion accessories.
  
  Now, with my current setup, I pretty much know how to finish things efficiently. I can go in a dungeon, destroy anything with range and melee, and finish with a good time.
  
  In an elite room? I can watch a critical crash shot slay wave after wave, or I can even windmill enemies to death. I know efficiency, I know how to get done faster. I know how to do it better. Lord Mission? I have rank 1 puppetry, I can just crisis then climatic crash a whole spawn to death. When you talk about efficiently, I know exactly what you are saying.
  
  However, at the same time, do I need to be efficient all the time? Not really. I don't feel the need to pull out my lv.6 elemental bow at every game and every shadow mission, especially helping a random party do hard and below just to destroy everything.
  
  Heck, there are times I rather just go through a hard mission with nothing more than a single un-upgraded broadsword (and still retain 400 max) and go through it, not soloing rooms to make things go faster or such. Do I need to find an excuse to do it? Not really.
  
  You're so bent up on things being 100% better than the other, you tend to, believe it or not, push down others who have interest in the knuckles with an overbearing sense that makes you seem too aggressive. Some of the people here are not really arguing, "Oh my gosh, this is the end of end weapons", but rather enjoy the prospect that a knuckle can cast magic like that can has combo abilities. Not all of the arguments are, "This is the ultima weapon", yet you treat those arguments with viscous aggression.
  
  Yes, ironwoman points out there's flaws in the weapons. Yes, I agree with them, as well as many others who would want these knuckles. Do we recognize that there's "better" options out there? Yes we do. Of course. Is it efficient? Of course not. Do you need to be efficient 24/7? Not really.
  
  You're so deadset on hardened efficiency that you forget that other people like it as a weapon and not just for efficiency.
  
  Would it be so hard for you to see that these weapon isn't so bad? It has potential, which is different from efficiency. It may not be efficient, but it has potential.
  
  I know you want to say, "Don't waste your time, you should use your money and time on more efficient things," but isn't getting what you desired something a person should have to do?
  
  And how about me? Who has a solid-built character and high-tier equipment with millions of gold in my bank. Would it be so bad I do a little splurge for myself on this knuckles?
  
  It's really your "do or die" attitude that causes a lot of misunderstandings.