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Milk wrote on 2013-05-20 15:24
Quote from Perfectio;1092403:
You're still ignoring opportunity cost. Why invest money and resources in an ultra-situational combo weapons with questionable benefits when I can invest the same resources in something I know works? It's not like these knuckles are free. Especially one that makes you worse overall in exchange for being able to do a few extra combos.
Again as I said, this attitude has been one of the things that are a major pitfall to low and midranged players - the skill freedom of Mabinogi making people opt for "creativity" and "combos" over raw efficiency - and Mabinogi is a game about efficiency, not trying to get all cute with combos.
To use an NFL analogy, one running back dances around and uses a lot of creative moves in the backfield to evade rushers, while the other running back makes one cut and hits the hole. The first RB might from time to time pull off a pretty creative move and get a lot of yardage in a given situation, but the other running back is more consistent and breaks the big runs just as often, and can still be creative when the situation calls for it, as opposed to focusing his entire game about being "creative". This is the situation we're in with these knuckles - the detractors point out that the knuckle makes your offensive output less consistent while the people defending them cite "combos" and "versatility" as factors. Combos and versatility are not ends in themselves, they are means to an end (i.e having a more effective character).
And at this point, you're not even theorizing combos, you're just arguing that someone might make a combo for it so it's good.
Yes, I agree that having Shockwave as an escape option is nice. Is it worth the significant loss in damage the knuckles entail (especially if you have an AOE pet - and most high-end players in NA found a way to get one, and EVERYONE in KR has an Ice Dragon due to Hot Time) ? Also with Thunder, you're AGAIN assuming you're always going to have instacast on the board. Guys, it's Final Hit, not Assault Slash. I might as well argue that Gunner is always going to have Frenzy on the board.
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translation: i don't actually have logical counterpoints so i'm just going to bow out while trying to save face
You're assuming that every player has money for like 40 ice dragons and bone dragons o-o. Im making these points to establish the reasons why
I want the knuckles. Im not trying prove anything to you I am just giving the reasons why I find it useful. I am also
not saying that the knuckles are better than just plain knuckles with high max and 2 handed special upgrades.. What Im saying is that The knuckles themselves are actually a viable weapons in my opinion even with the lose of damage as a trade off. I can still hit 8-10k drop kicks with that damage and elemental reforges are always there as an option.
I myself only have 1 ice dragon 1 raindeer 1 pheonix and thats it for my aoe pets o.o If my ice dragon is down then that sucks for me I have to think of other ways to handel the aoe.
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ironwoman wrote on 2013-05-20 18:43
I only have two AoE pets. that's way more than enough for me to keep enemies away. In fact, two AoE pets > shockwave already.
And I own neither ice dragon nor the bone dragon.
Hence why I probably won't get these knuckles.
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Zekkii wrote on 2013-05-20 18:43
Personally I don't see the fun in the weapon either. What fun seems to boil down to is fluid or at least plausible combos. Ignoring all damages, I really don't believe there's any combos that mix fighter and magic without being completely awkward. Using hailstorm, meteor strike, and fireball in combos is pretty much moot, they're pure damage skills and have no place in combos unless perhaps you're doing a team combo. What this leaves is Thunder, Ice Spear, and Blaze.
Starting with blaze, there isn't really any combos I can see to use it that actually use fighter and it receives nerfed blaze damage to boot. The real contenders are Ice Spear and Thunder. The problem with these two (+fireball) is the multi-aggro that's caused when you don't kill enemies mixed with fighters inability to handle it (and no, enemies will not die much using magic with these knuckles).
So I ask, what combo would you perform using fighter and magic that doesn't involve chain casting?
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Slayerj wrote on 2013-05-20 18:59
Load up instant cast, Charging strike, Uppercut, thunder on the single mob or for the group around it, pummel. That's it in theory though with how rank 1 instant cast works and how fast those two skills are, I can see that being very do-able amusing the mob is still alive. Once done pummeling, tumble and do your best to not die if the other mobs are still alive, like loading one more thunder to stun them all again so you can rush up to one and blaze it. :p... XD This is assuming your able to get your pummel out fast enough. Might need movement casting too..hmm...bah. We'll all test stuff like this when this comes to NA anyway~
You said chain casting btw, not instant casting. So....yeah. Also why limit it to not using instant cast? It's a skill you can use, so it's a viable thing to put into a combo. Sure you can't use it all the time, but you don't use one combo for every single fight.
Non instant cast...
Focused fist, uppercut or kick, blaze at what ever amount of charge you could pull that off with, then it could go two ways.
One charge thunder and load focused fist again and wait for the mob to run at you and repeat or,
charging strike, uppercut or kick, drop kick, and either TH if it's almost dead, or IS and rush it to blaze if it's still good on health.
This is just more theory crafting like anything that you can't do in NA.
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Kenero wrote on 2013-05-20 19:31
Quote from Zekkii;1092489:
Personally I don't see the fun in the weapon either. What fun seems to boil down to is fluid or at least plausible combos. Ignoring all damages, I really don't believe there's any combos that mix fighter and magic without being completely awkward. Using hailstorm, meteor strike, and fireball in combos is pretty much moot, they're pure damage skills and have no place in combos unless perhaps you're doing a team combo. What this leaves is Thunder, Ice Spear, and Blaze.
Starting with blaze, there isn't really any combos I can see to use it that actually use fighter and it receives nerfed blaze damage to boot. The real contenders are Ice Spear and Thunder. The problem with these two (+fireball) is the multi-aggro that's caused when you don't kill enemies mixed with fighters inability to handle it (and no, enemies will not die much using magic with these knuckles).
So I ask, what combo would you perform using fighter and magic that doesn't involve chain casting?
I really can't find out if there's a lot of viable combos. Only time can tell. I can't really use these knuckles to the fullest because my KR character is undeveloped in terms of fighter and magic.
I really can't do anything, maybe in the future. Sorry =(
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Nalgor wrote on 2013-05-20 23:46
Quote from Slayerj;1092494:
Load up instant cast, Charging strike, Uppercut, thunder on the single mob or for the group around it, pummel.
Wouldnt work, the fighter chain breaks after using anything that isnt a fighter skill or evade, or switching weapons
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Milk wrote on 2013-05-21 02:46
Quote from Nalgor;1092603:
Wouldnt work, the fighter chain breaks after using anything that isnt a fighter skill or evade, or switching weapons
^
The most you can do is prob use thunder at the start then focus fist during the stun charging strike upper cut, and maybe a 3rd chain skill or a quick blaze though. I dont know if youd do more damage with blaze or a smash if your drop kick is on cool down.
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Slayerj wrote on 2013-05-21 04:12
So..if that's true, why can this giant use evasion then pummel? :l
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN99Vh3PtaQ I know for a fact as long as you have the chain skill on your hot keys you can use it. I wasn't talking about using F1 or F2, I know that breaks, but you can still use the skill.
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Milk wrote on 2013-05-21 04:17
Hmm ill give it a shot and see later, finding room to hot key the skills seems like such a pain though. But if it works It might help me maximise my damage better.
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Invisible wrote on 2013-05-21 05:06
Quote from Slayerj;1092763:
So..if that's true, why can this giant use evasion then pummel? :l http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN99Vh3PtaQ I know for a fact as long as you have the chain skill on your hot keys you can use it. I wasn't talking about using F1 or F2, I know that breaks, but you can still use the skill.
The only skills you can use without breaking your Chain are Evasion, Defense, Counterattack, and Tumble. Maybe Respite, I haven't bothered trying that.
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Aubog007 wrote on 2013-05-21 05:42
Quote from Slayerj;1092763:
So..if that's true, why can this giant use evasion then pummel? :l http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN99Vh3PtaQ I know for a fact as long as you have the chain skill on your hot keys you can use it. I wasn't talking about using F1 or F2, I know that breaks, but you can still use the skill.
No you cant, i have those keys on my hotkeys and they still wont work. As the above poster said, only a few skills dont break the chain.
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Slayerj wrote on 2013-05-21 05:44
Well fk me sideways with a rusty spoon. =,=; I remember doing that before when fighter first came out. T,T I must be crazy. Two of my friends agreed with me too, remembering stuff like that as well. Gah, that's so lame! TT,TT Why would you do that devcat?? It doesn't even make the timer for the next chain go away. =,=;
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Yakumo Yukari wrote on 2013-05-21 07:34
Quote from Kaeporo;1091978:
That's just people making a one-sided argument. It tends to happen.
The Merlin Knuckles are good but they don't completely over-centralize the meta game, which is something that a couple of the other new weapons can boast. I would rather the knuckles improve flexibility and receive flak for it, than for them to dominate everything else.
what
Which weapons are these?
Quote from Zekkii;1092140:
There isn't any good magic + fighter combos. Get at me.
I like the way you think.
So long as these new knuckles won't lead to people QQing when I puppet, because magic and fighter are very easily cockblocked by puppets lol
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Kaeporo wrote on 2013-05-21 23:17
Quote from Yakumo Yukari;1092806:
what
Which weapons are these?
Bhafelsepaer Hunter
Bhafelsepaer Slayer
Leanghirith Chaser
Leanghirith Bonebreaker
Black Dragon Knight Bow
Black Dragon Knight Sword
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Yakumo Yukari wrote on 2013-05-21 23:18
The new weapons don't overcentralize the metagame. They're just upgraded versions of existing weapons.