End Game

• Zekkii wrote on 2013-09-04 19:05

  Quote from Gensokyou;1144064:

  Would like to see fusion bolt even finish charging by the time room is dead with act 7, crash shot, wm, or shooting rush. And then you have either low damage aoe or decent single target damage that drops off. I'm not a huge fan of it. I'd love to see some videos of this deadly fusion bolt in action, especially in harder content.
  
  Come zero, it's going to charge faster at the price of apm and vulnerability to screwing up. And even then, firebolt's going to hit much harder.

  
  In current game one can get around 1260 intelligence, 20 magic attack from enchants, 10 from scathach title, 20 from the wand, for a total of 113. Also included is r1 bolt mastery (15%), r1 fusion bolt (15%), r1 elemental masteries (15%), r1 magic mastery (10%), magic attack title (5%), wand upgrades (+21%), special upgrades (21%), hebona set (10%), bolt mastery 20 headgear reforge (20%)
  
  The formula for bolts is the same as intermediate magics, it would be applied as:
  150 * 1.21 * (1 + 1.13 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.2) * 1.1 * 1.26 = 661 for lightning bolt
  120 * 1.21 * (1 + 1.13 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) * 1.1 * 1.26 = 579 for firebolt
  80 * 1.21 * (1 + 1.13 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) * 1.1 * 1.26 = 366 for icebolt
  
  This is of course, ignoring that bolts only receive damage from special upgrades if you are using the wand of the same type and ignoring bonus stats from any possible max damage from enchants or wand type. For ease of calculation, it should come out similarly enough.
  
  Starting with fire - ice, because it is the most notable fusion:
  Last Four Bolts: [579 * (4 + 3 + 2 + 1) + 366 * (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)] * 1.15 = 8342
  First of Five: [579 * 5 + 366] * 1.3 * 1.15 = 4875
  TOTAL = 13217
  
  So yes, in current game standards its pretty much crap. Now pretend we are fully updated like KR. Lets just say you have 500 magic attack with your staff and you want to throw out some fusion bolts to kill stragglers.
  
  [150 + (500 * 0.6)] * (1 + 2.5 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.2) = 1800 lightning bolt damage
  [120 + (500 * 0.5)] * (1 + 2.5 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 1517 firebolt damage
  [80 + (500 * 0.4)] * (1 + 2.5 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 1148 icebolt damage
  
  Well firebolt damage would be a straight 1517 * 6.5 = 9860, so that should make it obvious that fusion bolt is inferior from the start. But how does fire - ice hold up:
  
  Last Four Bolts: [1517 * (4 + 3 + 2 + 1) + 1148 * (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)] * 1.15 = 22726
  First of Five: [1517 * 5 + 1148] * 1.3 * 1.15 = 13055
  TOTAL = 35781
  
  It starts to become an asset. Perhaps not quite the same punch as firebolt spam, but still fair damage.
• wildk wrote on 2013-09-04 19:32
  Now throwing charge time in it, using current mabi load time as reference
  
  assuming using fire wand on both cases and for fusion bolt the time used is half firebolt and full icebolt,
  also assuming 0.5 second skill use time
  
  the time taken to fully charge 5 fusion fire-ice is approximately:
  (1.5 / 2 + 1)*5 = 8.75 seconds
  time taken to unleash all 5 charges is approximately 2.5 seconds
  Total time required for mid-battle fusion bolt loading and usage is 11.25
  Average DPS is 35781/11.25 = 3180.5
  
  For cc+4 firewand,
  1.5 second charge time + 0.5 second skill usage time = 2 second total
  Average DPS is 9860/2 = 4930
  
  using ratios to make this applicable to any future modifications to speed changes, the of DPS of fusion fire-ice versus cc+4 firebolt is a whopping 1:1.55
  
  just saying :3
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-09-04 19:56

  Quote from wildk;1144220:

  Now throwing charge time in it, using current mabi load time as reference
  
  assuming using fire wand on both cases and for fusion bolt the time used is half firebolt and full icebolt,
  also assuming 0.5 second skill use time
  
  the time taken to fully charge 5 fusion fire-ice is approximately:
  (1.5 / 2 + 1)*5 = 8.75 seconds
  time taken to unleash all 5 charges is approximately 2.5 seconds
  Total time required for mid-battle fusion bolt loading and usage is 11.25
  Average DPS is 35781/11.25 = 3180.5
  
  For cc+4 firewand,
  1.5 second charge time + 0.5 second skill usage time = 2 second total
  Average DPS is 9860/2 = 4930
  
  using ratios to make this applicable to any future modifications to speed changes, the of DPS of fusion fire-ice versus cc+4 firebolt is a whopping 1:1.55
  
  just saying :3

  Just another note, you should consider mana usage for firebolt spam, if you manage to fire off one every 2 seconds you are effectively using 900 mana per minute. Provided fire-ice takes 11.25 seconds you will be using about [4 + (4 * 0.9) + (4 * 0.8) + (4 * 0.7) + (4 * 0.6)] + (6 * 5)] * 0.8 = 36.8, and 196.27 mana per minute. Of course you can have a much more impressive mana ruduction that just 20%, which is just the masteries. So I would give firebolt at least 4.5 to 5 times as much mana cost.
• Traw wrote on 2013-09-04 21:15
  Thank you for all your posts
  I am curious though does lance swap still work?
• Johny wrote on 2013-09-04 22:43

  Quote from Zekkii;1144204:

  In current game one can get around 1260 intelligence, 20 magic attack from enchants, 10 from scathach title, 20 from the wand, for a total of 113. Also included is r1 bolt mastery (15%), r1 fusion bolt (15%), r1 elemental masteries (15%), r1 magic mastery (10%), magic attack title (5%), wand upgrades (+21%), special upgrades (21%), hebona set (10%), bolt mastery 20 headgear reforge (20%)
  
  The formula for bolts is the same as intermediate magics, it would be applied as:
  150 * 1.21 * (1 + 1.13 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.2) * 1.1 * 1.26 = 661 for lightning bolt
  120 * 1.21 * (1 + 1.13 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) * 1.1 * 1.26 = 579 for firebolt
  80 * 1.21 * (1 + 1.13 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) * 1.1 * 1.26 = 366 for icebolt
  
  This is of course, ignoring that bolts only receive damage from special upgrades if you are using the wand of the same type and ignoring bonus stats from any possible max damage from enchants or wand type. For ease of calculation, it should come out similarly enough.
  
  Starting with fire - ice, because it is the most notable fusion:
  Last Four Bolts: [579 * (4 + 3 + 2 + 1) + 366 * (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)] * 1.15 = 8342
  First of Five: [579 * 5 + 366] * 1.3 * 1.15 = 4875
  TOTAL = 13217
  
  So yes, in current game standards its pretty much crap. Now pretend we are fully updated like KR. Lets just say you have 500 magic attack with your staff and you want to throw out some fusion bolts to kill stragglers.
  
  [150 + (500 * 0.6)] * (1 + 2.5 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.2) = 1800 lightning bolt damage
  [120 + (500 * 0.5)] * (1 + 2.5 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 1517 firebolt damage
  [80 + (500 * 0.4)] * (1 + 2.5 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 1148 icebolt damage
  
  Well firebolt damage would be a straight 1517 * 6.5 = 9860, so that should make it obvious that fusion bolt is inferior from the start. But how does fire - ice hold up:
  
  Last Four Bolts: [1517 * (4 + 3 + 2 + 1) + 1148 * (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)] * 1.15 = 22726
  First of Five: [1517 * 5 + 1148] * 1.3 * 1.15 = 13055
  TOTAL = 35781
  
  It starts to become an asset. Perhaps not quite the same punch as firebolt spam, but still fair damage.

  
  
  What about fire-lightning?
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-09-05 02:57

  Quote from Johny;1144296:

  What about fire-lightning?

  
  Well 1 charge would be (1800 + 1517) * 1.15 = 3815, and every charge more adds +1744.55 more. Chaining reduces 10% against the second target, 20% against the third, 30% against the fourth, and 40% against the fifth.
• Gensokyou wrote on 2013-09-05 03:56

  Quote from wildk & the cat:

  stuff

  
  
  Let me explain a few problems with it.
  
  First of all, fusion bolt is sensitive to lag. Not as sensitive as say, blaze, but if you lag it can really fuck you up, especially with the speed changes. This tends to happen to people who are off the continent more. It's not the end all and be all but it's certainly a factor. You're also using double, if not MORE the APM of other skills, which detracts from your focus and situational awareness.
  
  Next, and this is comparing apples and apples here, you're trying to say that 1.55 is not a big deal but mana cost IS a big deal. Mana cost is really no big deal at all. If you have troubles with MP usage you're either tanking stuff with mana shield while maging or you're not doing it right. However, 1.55 is the difference between a normal weapon and elemental 6 weapon, and that is a HUGE difference in damage. So yes, it is a whopping 1:1.55, with no sarcasm.
  
  Also comparing apples and apples here, you're comparing totally endgame equipments here (which is the premise of this thread, but I digress and need to address this) - Fusion bolt's formula is (Damage 1 + Damage 2)(1+Fusion bolt multiplier)*full charge firebolt fusion.
  
  So as you can see, the bonuses are applied twice to fusion bolt - once to each part. (And yes, you can take it out as Bonuses(damage 1 + damage 2), but it still makes a bigger difference.) 2 can play the misdirection game.
  
  Next is addressing this point:
  
  

  the time taken to fully charge 5 fusion fire-ice is approximately:
  (1.5 / 2 + 1)*5 = 8.75 seconds
  time taken to unleash all 5 charges is approximately 2.5 seconds
  Total time required for mid-battle fusion bolt loading and usage is 11.25
  Average DPS is 35781/11.25 = 3180.5
  
  For cc+4 firewand,
  1.5 second charge time + 0.5 second skill usage time = 2 second total
  Average DPS is 9860/2 = 4930

  
  
  Speed casting modifiers will not change skill execution times, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Fusion bolt suffers diminishing returns from speed casting in terms of dps because you spend more time on skill execution, whereas I don't know where you pulled the 0.5 second usage time for firebolt - If you want to make a fair comparison, you time how long it takes to shoot your 5 fusion bolts at mobs and then you realize that you can instantly start charging firebolt during its animation.
  
  And if you want to compare apples and oranges, you have to take the staff damage into account (as that was the argument, no?) compared to the grossly superior ego wand:
  
  Assume a loss of 150 matk (which is being very, very generous)
  
  (120 + 113 + 350*0.5+5)*(1 + 2.5 + 0.15 + 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.2) = 1672.8, which gives you 11k non-crit firebolts with a cc wand.
  
  Idk about you, but that's a big thing to leave out considering we're talking about single target dps and if I wanted that, i'd be using my ego wand.
  
  Addressing the cat's statement here:
  
  

  Now pretend we are fully updated like KR. Lets just say you have 500 magic attack with your staff and you want to throw out some fusion bolts to kill stragglers.

  
  
  That wouldn't be very effective, because...
  
  

  Total time required for mid-battle fusion bolt loading and usage is 11.25

  
  
  Now, using a figure of 2.5 seconds for unleashing to give fusion bolt the shortest possible charging time and charging speed reductions:
  
  8.75/(1.3 (speed 20)+.2(Good normal play vivace)+.2(1000 int % reduction))=5.1 seconds
  
  So assuming no lag and fully focused APM, it'd take you 5.1 seconds to fully charge icefire in optimal circumstances.
  
  Then you also need to account for overkill. If you're killing stragglers, once you fire off the first bolt your damage quickly starts to drop off, meaning if they're not already injured (stragglers can refer to leftover mobs that wern't affected by aoe as well as ones stil alive), you lose the ko potential on them.
  
  If you only do one charge to pick off a straggler you get shitty damage due to low charge multiplier.
  
  It's just too slow to be viable as a general cleaning skill except in extremely specific situations.
  
  So fusion bolt gets buffed, yes, but it still sucks.
  
  EDIT: A few other things:
  
  After giving it a go and successfully not getting it to backfire because of lag, took me 10 seconds to get to 4 charges of icefire. But we're being generous here, again.
  
  The Cat told me on skype that the idea was to shoot off Lightning-fire, but that's still slow and sux because of chaining and damage dropoff. Unless everything in the room is conveniently very low on hp in which case, pull out a cc+4 lightning wand or something (rofl)
• wildk wrote on 2013-09-05 07:02

  Quote from Gensokyou;1144413:

  Speed casting modifiers will not change skill execution times, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Fusion bolt suffers diminishing returns from speed casting in terms of dps because you spend more time on skill execution, whereas I don't know where you pulled the 0.5 second usage time for firebolt - If you want to make a fair comparison, you time how long it takes to shoot your 5 fusion bolts at mobs and then you realize that you can instantly start charging firebolt during its animation.

  
  
  XD it was just an approximation, I forgot that firebolt is different from fusion and you can charge during the estimated 0.5second using time.
  
  More the reason it'll widen the gap between cc firebolt and fusion. Never much a fan of fusion anyway
• Tropa wrote on 2013-09-07 06:17
  [SPOILER="My dps in between Chain cylinder's"]

  Alchemy Set
  Magical Ripple Hat
  Magical Tidal Accessories(x2)
  Magical Ripple Wear - Rain casting Watercannon damage 15 Reforge
  Magical Ripple Boots
  Magical Difficult Gloves
  Magical Wave Abyss cylinder - R5 - Watercannon max Damage 19 Reforge
  Magical Wave Rebis Guard Cylinder

  
  Stats/conditions
  193 Base Damage
  125 Water alchemic[SIZE="1"](Assuming low roll on Guard's Wave enchant)[/SIZE]
  450 : 1,5XX Mana
  Cressida set: x1.15
  Raincasting: x1.95
  [SPOILER="dmg formula"]

  [Image: http://puu.sh/4kyG9.png]

  [/SPOILER]
  Single Charge - Normal
  1,374
  Single Charge - Critical
  3,777
  Single Charge - Rain
  2,680
  Single Charge - Critical + Rain
  7,365
  
  [SPOILER="combo card"]

  [Image: http://puu.sh/4kTO0.png]

  
  - Don't worry, I have a revival coupon for this bby.[/SPOILER]
  
  
  [SPOILER="+10%"]Single Charge - Normal
  1,511
  Single Charge - Critical
  4,154
  Single Charge - Rain
  2,948
  Single Charge - Critical + Rain
  8,101[/SPOILER]
  
  [SPOILER="+18%"]Single Charge - Normal
  1621
  Single Charge - Critical
  4,456
  Single Charge - Rain
  3,162
  Single Charge - Critical + Rain
  8,690[/SPOILER]
  
  [SPOILER="+30%"]Single Charge - Normal
  1,786
  Single Charge - Critical
  4,910
  Single Charge - Rain
  3,484
  Single Charge - Critical + Rain
  9,574[/SPOILER]
  
  [SPOILER="+41%"]Single Charge - Normal
  1,937
  Single Charge - Critical
  5,325
  Single Charge - Rain
  3,778
  Single Charge - Critical + Rain
  10,384[/SPOILER][/SPOILER]
  Keep 'et raining <3
• Tally wrote on 2013-09-07 06:56
  And that's the kind of combo card I like to see. Incidentally, I am curious: How many slot changes did that take? Whenever I get a job soon I might take the leap to making a premium card. My expectation is that you can perfect one within $25. (Or at least come close)
• Tropa wrote on 2013-09-07 07:01

  Quote from Tally;1145243:

  And that's the kind of combo card I like to see. Incidentally, I am curious: How many slot changes did that take? Whenever I get a job soon I might take the leap to making a premium card. My expectation is that you can perfect one within $25. (Or at least come close)

  
  
  Spent 100$ on it, I was 50$ in before I found out how keaporo did his.
  
  totally worth it thought.
• Tally wrote on 2013-09-07 07:07
  That's a lot steeper than I thought. But yeah, sounds totally worth it. I'm interested to know how big your heat busters get.
• Tropa wrote on 2013-09-07 07:10

  Quote from Tally;1145247:

  That's a lot steeper than I thought. But yeah, sounds totally worth it. I'm interested to know how big your heat busters get.

  
  
  Back then.. I cracked a 14k in HM with a tower cylinder and 7~9k's with a Tidalwave with the card, I really can't say how much I'll be hitting with my abyss after updates.
• Gensokyou wrote on 2013-09-07 07:31

  Quote from Tally;1145243:

  And that's the kind of combo card I like to see. Incidentally, I am curious: How many slot changes did that take? Whenever I get a job soon I might take the leap to making a premium card. My expectation is that you can perfect one within $25. (Or at least come close)

  
  
  No, not even close, unless you have the unholiest of luck.
  
  Think more in the order of 1-500 dollars.
• Tally wrote on 2013-09-07 07:31
  Impressive. Granted, that's really pimped out, but impressive nonetheless.