Best demonic illusion control bar upgrade path?

• Lia wrote on 2014-03-24 06:39
  Is there a decidedly "best" upgrade path for demonic illusion control bars?
  
  I was considering mostly 246 (highest damage/highest balance):
  Damage 22~63
  Critical 13%
  Balance 21% + artisan
  
  Or 255 (balanced):
  Damage 22~60
  Critical 19%
  Balance 12% + artisan
  
  I'm not really considering the last, 264 (highest crit/balance) due to the lower max damage I guess.
  Damage 16~54
  Critical 22%
  Balance 21%
  
  I've just finished puppet for utility purposes -- act 6+4 into blaze; occasionally act 7 -- and since the latter two skills ignore prot for crit, upgrading for crit does not seem as important. Maybe I've already answered my own question...
  :gloom3:
  
  (I've read Kyubey's puppetry guide and I'm considering the possibility of using act 1/2 in play but haven't tried yet.)
  
  Any opinions on which upgrade path would be best? I'm leaning toward the first.
  
  Thanks for the help!
• alwmiioktm wrote on 2014-03-24 07:07
  First one always go for highest damage potential with upgrades.
• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2014-03-24 08:54
  Plain and simple:
  

  • 1. Break Illusion Control Bar Seal
    
  • 2. Grip Adjustment 1
    
  • 3. Grip Adjustment 2
    
  • 4. Grip Adjustment 3
    
  • 5. Artisan Upgrade
    
  • 6. Control Bar Gem Repair (Don't get the other one, if you check the Wiki you'll know why)

  
  [S]Basically type 246.[/S]
• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-24 14:53
  246 is ideal if you're only looking to use acts 4, 6, and 7.
  
  However, if you're a true puppeteer like me and look to use other puppetry skills as well (primarily 1, 2, and Wire Pull), the Balanced path (255) is more favorable despite the less damage, since it has more crit.
  
  The 3 extra damage isn't much anyways.
• Syliara wrote on 2014-03-24 20:35

  Quote from Chihaya;1209386:

  246 is ideal if you're only looking to use acts 4, 6, and 7.
  
  However, if you're a true puppeteer like me and look to use other puppetry skills as well (primarily 1, 2, and Wire Pull), the Balanced path (255) is more favorable despite the less damage, since it has more crit.
  
  The 3 extra damage isn't much anyways.

  
  
  It's a bad idea to go crit on weapon upgrades because you can make any amount of critical rate u will ever need from stats and enchants alone. Wasting any max dmg (even if its 3) on critical for weapon upgrades is basically throwing away maximum damage for a stat that you wont need to gain any more of later. I am always above 130% critical rate barehanded and its only from some will and a bit of luck along with enchants.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-24 21:22

  Quote from Nui;1209454:

  It's a bad idea to go crit on weapon upgrades because you can make any amount of critical rate u will ever need from stats and enchants alone. Wasting any max dmg (even if its 3) on critical for weapon upgrades is basically throwing away maximum damage for a stat that you wont need to gain any more of later. I am always above 130% critical rate barehanded and its only from some will and a bit of luck along with enchants.

  Well you could say the same thing with max damage, in that you can get it from your base stats up until the final bits of the game.
  
  Also the way crit works, 130% crit is just 20% crit against something with 55 protection.
  (Which is why skills that ignore prot for crit calculation are so valued.)
• arochia246 wrote on 2014-03-25 00:18

  Quote from Rydian;1209491:

  Well you could say the same thing with max damage, in that you can get it from your base stats up until the final bits of the game.
  
  Also the way crit works, 130% crit is just 20% crit against something with 55 protection.
  (Which is why skills that ignore prot for crit calculation are so valued.)

  
  
  I am inclined to disagree here. Crit is a very easy stat to gain, especially if you don't use -crit modifiers (Oblivion I'm looking at you damnit.) . Also, as you progress, most of the time, you will be under the effects of battlefield overture. That in itself adds a decent amount of crit chance.
• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-25 02:18
  Just to balance out the debate here, here's my thought:
  
  3 max damage = 10.5 STR+DEX, right?
  But 6% Critical = 60 Will or 30 Luck.
  
  Don't get me wrong: Even I have ~100% critical rate with bare hands--and I didn't even finish the fighter skillset or even have the merchant destiny skills ranked. In this kind of situation, that extra 6% may be the factor that allows me to crit against Lord Monsters or the Black Dragon(80% prot)/White Dragon (70% prot).
  
  If you upgrade your Demonic with S5 or R5 (or level 6 for that matter), you'll notice that the S5 gives 39 max damage: 13 times the amount you're "sacrificing".
  If you're getting an R5, you'll want the highest critical rate (30%) against any monster without sacrificing the damage, hence the reason to choose the balanced path that'll give you 6% more.
  
  In the end, it's all about preference and doesn't make too much of a difference, but I'm just putting the numbers out there...
• Syliara wrote on 2014-03-25 04:04

  Quote from Rydian;1209491:

  Well you could say the same thing with max damage, in that you can get it from your base stats up until the final bits of the game.
  
  Also the way crit works, 130% crit is just 20% crit against something with 55 protection.
  (Which is why skills that ignore prot for crit calculation are so valued.)

  
  
  I know how crit works lol, my point was barehanded without a weapons crit bonus and without the effects of overture i can get to the crit cap of 90% of the mobs in the game. The difference between max damage and crit is that crit has a very easily achievable cap, while max dmg has no cap (at least none that is possible to reach at this point in time) so going with crit when you can basically cap it out with enchants or stats alone is basically wasting an upgrade itself while max dmg is ALWAYS useful.
  
  

  Quote from arochia246;1209561:

  I am inclined to disagree here. Crit is a very easy stat to gain, especially if you don't use -crit modifiers (Oblivion I'm looking at you damnit.) . Also, as you progress, most of the time, you will be under the effects of battlefield overture. That in itself adds a decent amount of crit chance.

  
  
  As aro states here crit is easy to obtain without needing to use an upgrade slot on it. You can reach the cap against most mobs without even trying at this point (i didnt try i just enchanted for max dmg and ranked fighter and now i have more crit than i ever can use) and then any extra critical u might have is completely wasted....
  
  

  Quote from Chihaya;1209594:

  Just to balance out the debate here, here's my thought:
  
  3 max damage = 10.5 STR+DEX, right?
  But 6% Critical = 60 Will or 30 Luck.
  
  Don't get me wrong: Even I have ~100% critical rate with bare hands--and I didn't even finish the fighter skillset or even have the merchant destiny skills ranked. In this kind of situation, that extra 6% may be the factor that allows me to crit against Lord Monsters or the Black Dragon(80% prot)/White Dragon (70% prot).
  
  If you upgrade your Demonic with S5 or R5 (or level 6 for that matter), you'll notice that the S5 gives 39 max damage: 13 times the amount you're "sacrificing".
  If you're getting an R5, you'll want the highest critical rate (30%) against any monster without sacrificing the damage, hence the reason to choose the balanced path that'll give you 6% more.
  
  In the end, it's all about preference and doesn't make too much of a difference, but I'm just putting the numbers out there...

  
  
  You should never ever S upgrade a weapon that you would want to use mid to end game, it just falls off very quickly but thats a discussion for another thread.
  
  Theres no point in upgrading for that extra critical rate if u can already hit the crit cap. You are literally wasting an upgrade slot because that 6% critical did absolutely nothing for u. At least with the maximum damage no matter how small an increase it is u are getting something out of that upgrade instead of having the upgrade basically nullified.
  
  For anything like WD/BD or lords most of the time they will be brionaced so it doesnt even matter, and for lords normally people dont run that a ton and that one upgrade wouldnt even make a noticeable difference on any side most likely. For 90% of content you can gain whatever crit you need from enchants, base weapon critical, and stats.
  
  Ofc were splitting hairs at this point since both bonuses arent really that big of a loss on either side, but I personally would feel it a waste of an upgrade slot to go critical rate since I feel that critical is basically lost at a certain point.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-25 10:09
  The mobs you can easily cap your crit rate against are generally the mobs you don't need to worry about a couple of max/crit points to cross the border of killing in the first place though.
• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-25 16:00

  You should never ever S upgrade a weapon that you would want to use mid to end game, it just falls off very quickly but thats a discussion for another thread.

  
  
  True that. I just included that comment because you never know if someone wanted to derp around with his extra blue stones (Trust me. there are people like that)
  
  

  Theres no point in upgrading for that extra critical rate if u can already hit the crit cap. You are literally wasting an upgrade slot because that 6% critical did absolutely nothing for u. At least with the maximum damage no matter how small an increase it is u are getting something out of that upgrade instead of having the upgrade basically nullified.

  
  
  The thing is, you're immediately assuming the two following things:
  1) User's critical (with all the stats) is high enough to achieve 30% critical on all monsters
  2) The 3 extra damage will actually make a difference at that point (when the user has max crit on all monsters)
  
  Having such a high critical corresponds to the player ranking not only Fighter Skills or Merchant Destiny Skills, but also certain skills like Windmill and Thunder for the WILL. In addition, it then assumes that the player has r1 puppetry skills, and while I don't want to criticize you for this kind of assumption, note that not everyone will have that accomplished.
  
  The second point is that you're arguing that the 3 extra damage is something added onto...
  1) Bar upgrades including the 30 max damage artisan
  2) Enchants that add another ~30-40 max damage depending on which ones you use
  3) All the STR + DEX stats that already add to your base damage anyways
  4) Fine, we'll consider Overture
  5) and more that I probably can't think of right now
  
  So basically, you're claiming that the level of the water of the pool rose just because you poured a glass of water into it.
  Technically, you'd be correct, but depending on how strongly you advocate for it, people will just laugh at you.
  
  

  Ofc were splitting hairs at this point since both bonuses arent really that big of a loss on either side, but I personally would feel it a waste of an upgrade slot to go critical rate since I feel that critical is basically lost at a certain point.

  
  
  Yes, you're correct with this statement, but I still stand for my side of the argument since even with ~120% crit, I have trouble critting against some Elite Mosnters or Lord Monsters.
  I use R-upgrades for every weapon except magic weapons, and my thought process is that I want to achieve the highest critical possible (for the R-Upgrade bonus when I crit), without sacrificing too much damage.
  
  It would suck if I upgraded a weapon for its damage and got it to R5 or R6, only to find that against monster "X", my highest critical rate is only 14%.
  
  tl;dr:
  1) You use R-Upgrades
  2) R-Upgrades needs capped Crit to be effective
  3) If 3 max damage isn't too much of a difference, why not play the safe hand and go for the 6% that'll increase the chances of capping crit on all the monsters you see, in any sort of circumstances?
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-25 16:37
  I fully agree with Chi up there. So many users on mabination simply don't remember what it's like to actually be developing a character. Even with development it depends on what was done, as my main is 2.3K total and has a naked crit rate of just 55% at 62/25 current because I don't do fighter on the main and my investment into merchant is nowhere near complete.
• Syliara wrote on 2014-03-25 18:04

  Quote from Chihaya;1209739:

  True that. I just included that comment because you never know if someone wanted to derp around with his extra blue stones (Trust me. there are people like that)
  
  
  
  The thing is, you're immediately assuming the two following things:
  1) User's critical (with all the stats) is high enough to achieve 30% critical on all monsters
  2) The 3 extra damage will actually make a difference at that point (when the user has max crit on all monsters)
  
  Having such a high critical corresponds to the player ranking not only Fighter Skills or Merchant Destiny Skills, but also certain skills like Windmill and Thunder for the WILL. In addition, it then assumes that the player has r1 puppetry skills, and while I don't want to criticize you for this kind of assumption, note that not everyone will have that accomplished.
  
  The second point is that you're arguing that the 3 extra damage is something added onto...
  1) Bar upgrades including the 30 max damage artisan
  2) Enchants that add another ~30-40 max damage depending on which ones you use
  3) All the STR + DEX stats that already add to your base damage anyways
  4) Fine, we'll consider Overture
  5) and more that I probably can't think of right now
  
  So basically, you're claiming that the level of the water of the pool rose just because you poured a glass of water into it.
  Technically, you'd be correct, but depending on how strongly you advocate for it, people will just laugh at you.
  
  
  
  Yes, you're correct with this statement, but I still stand for my side of the argument since even with ~120% crit, I have trouble critting against some Elite Mosnters or Lord Monsters.
  I use R-upgrades for every weapon except magic weapons, and my thought process is that I want to achieve the highest critical possible (for the R-Upgrade bonus when I crit), without sacrificing too much damage.
  
  It would suck if I upgraded a weapon for its damage and got it to R5 or R6, only to find that against monster "X", my highest critical rate is only 14%.
  
  tl;dr:
  1) You use R-Upgrades
  2) R-Upgrades needs capped Crit to be effective
  3) If 3 max damage isn't too much of a difference, why not play the safe hand and go for the 6% that'll increase the chances of capping crit on all the monsters you see, in any sort of circumstances?

  
  
  Actually my assumption is always that the player intends to work on their character progression and will reach a point where gaining extra critical rate does absolutely nothing for them, barring a couple of instances which shouldnt really determine how u build your weapon. You actually dont need to rank fighter skills or get a ton of will to boost your critical rate to a good amount since enchants can easily cover any and all amounts u might need. Titles can also give u easily 30% critical rate if u have decent ones. The difference with sacrificing maximum damage for critical on enchants is that they can always be overriden later and worked on and tweaked however you like, however with upgrade paths that upgrade is set in stone from the second u press "Confirm" (barring artisans slightly) so you are not able to actually change it to something different later on.
  
  My main point is really that the issue with excess critical rate is that it literally dissapears after u reach a certain point since it has an easily obtainable cap, but with maximum damage it has no identifiable cap that can be reached so any max damage added will always have some form of impact. Now of course sometimes the critical rate cap is difficult to reach, but at a certain point in your character progression you will most likely reach it and that 6% critical rate will drop off and become useless to a decent amount of the content, while on the other hand that 3 max will always have its use and be calculated in your damage dealt.
  
  In the end tho it doesn't matter much since the upgrades in question are both minimal increases and either way it wont make a noticeable difference but thats just my view on it.
  
  

  Quote from Rydian;1209749:

  I fully agree with Chi up there. So many users on mabination simply don't remember what it's like to actually be developing a character. Even with development it depends on what was done, as my main is 2.3K total and has a naked crit rate of just 75% at 62/25 current because I don't do fighter on the main and my investment into merchant is nowhere near complete.

  
  
  Quite the contrary actually, whenever I give advice it is always under the assumption that they are both a low level but at the same time working on their character progression and intend to eventually get to a point where they are at least mid game. Trust me, I am assuming this person is a low level and intends to develop it further.
  
  I actually did a character creation and development recently with a giant (albeit was an elite hero but still) and I was able to reach 100% critical in under a week while not going out of my way to increase my critical rate with enchants or skill ranks. Keep in mind it was also on another server so I had no help besides from friends that were nice enough to give me things and anything else I could muster from nothing.
• Yuuki Asuna wrote on 2014-03-25 23:21

  Quote from Nui;1209764:

  My main point is really that the issue with excess critical rate is that it literally dissapears after u reach a certain point since it has an easily obtainable cap, but with maximum damage it has no identifiable cap that can be reached so any max damage added will always have some form of impact. Now of course sometimes the critical rate cap is difficult to reach, but at a certain point in your character progression you will most likely reach it and that 6% critical rate will drop off and become useless to a decent amount of the content, while on the other hand that 3 max will always have its use and be calculated in your damage dealt.

  
  
  Eh, I disagree with this especially in the case of demonic handle bars. You can very easily make a new set of bars when you have more resources. The odds are also pretty good that you'll probably get a shit artisan the first time around. [S]And let's be real here, you're going to blow-up like 5 bars going for r6 anyways. Step 6 or step out.[/S]
  
  Fighter is utter trash outside of an MA party and even as I approach a reasonably high total, I'd rather rank a myriad of other skills before even anything in that tab besides tumble, chain mastery, and counter punch.
  
  It's pretty much what Chihaya said- there's more of a penalty for not being able to crit reliably versus a marginal max increase during the early development of a character.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-26 00:09
  I corrected the typo in my earlier post, I typed 75%, but my barehanded crit rate was actually just 55%.
  
  

  Quote from Nui;1209764:

  I actually did a character creation and development recently with a giant (albeit was an elite hero but still) and I was able to reach 100% critical in under a week

  [Image: http://rydian.net/emotes/cat_silver/images/wtf.gif]

  
  
  Do you even know what an elite hero card is or does?
  
  Check the total on that character and then get back to me.