Best demonic illusion control bar upgrade path?

• Syliara wrote on 2014-03-26 04:15

  Quote from Yuuki Asuna;1209827:

  Eh, I disagree with this especially in the case of demonic handle bars. You can very easily make a new set of bars when you have more resources. The odds are also pretty good that you'll probably get a shit artisan the first time around. [S]And let's be real here, you're going to blow-up like 5 bars going for r6 anyways. Step 6 or step out.[/S]
  
  Fighter is utter trash outside of an MA party and even as I approach a reasonably high total, I'd rather rank a myriad of other skills before even anything in that tab besides tumble, chain mastery, and counter punch.
  
  It's pretty much what Chihaya said- there's more of a penalty for not being able to crit reliably versus a marginal max increase during the early development of a character.

  
  
  They are welcome to do as they want honestly its not a big deal for something so small, but I wouldnt want to restart another pair of demonics not with my luck with special upgrading and the like. I would rather get the weapon done and think of it done in the long term, but this is just me and dealing with costs on special upgrading.
  
  

  Quote from Rydian;1209849:

  I corrected the typo in my earlier post, I typed 75%, but my barehanded crit rate was actually just 55%.
  
  

  [Image: http://rydian.net/emotes/cat_silver/images/wtf.gif]

  
  
  Do you even know what an elite hero card is or does?
  
  Check the total on that character and then get back to me.

  
  
  Regardless of the 2k start, the skills that come pre ranked give almost no will and luck. To argue that just because its 2k total it has ridiculous starting critical is dumb since, depending on the ace u choose, u might maybe have like 100 will at most when u start out. I know exactly what an elite hero card does but it has very little impact on the stats that contribute to critical rate when you first create the character. The only thing you could argue it gives that helps critical rate in the begining is the fact that it gives u a starting 800 ap to mess around with, but even considering this the only thing I ranked where basic close combat skills. Now I ask you the same question, Do you even know what an elite hero card is or does?
• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-26 05:59

  Quote from Yuuki Asuna;1209827:

  [S]And let's be real here, you're going to blow-up like 5 bars going for r6 anyways. Step 6 or step out.[/S]

  
  
  B-b-but it has Nostalgic and an almost max-roll Colossus on it!
  It also has Max, Min, and Crit max artisan!
  A-a-and it's dyed D:
  
  I'm too chicken to R6 this thing...
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-26 12:33

  Quote from Nui;1209941:

  Regardless of the 2k start, the skills that come pre ranked give almost no will and luck. To argue that just because its 2k total it has ridiculous starting critical is dumb since, depending on the ace u choose, u might maybe have like 100 will at most when u start out. I know exactly what an elite hero card does but it has very little impact on the stats that contribute to critical rate when you first create the character. The only thing you could argue it gives that helps critical rate in the begining is the fact that it gives u a starting 800 ap to mess around with, but even considering this the only thing I ranked where basic close combat skills.

  (Will - 10)/10 = Luck contribution.
  
  Even if an elite hero character "only" starts out with 100 Will, that's 9x more than a base char. :P
  
  Also, puppetry skills only give 25 Will and 0 luck when all are R1, which is 2.5% crit.
  
  Critical Hit, Windmill, and Smash DO give a little over 100 will when R1'd though (the rest of the will-giving combat skills are things a newbie puppeteer wouldn't be training normally). But that's 132+(169|177)+183 = 484 (elf) or 492 (human/giant) AP.
  
  Which means at least four rebirth cycles for a new character to get all that AP, and note that new characters cannot get into hardmode missions unless they spend time and AP beforehand ranking up a talent to the gold level.
  
  Meaning the progress made in a week on an Elite Hero character is far above the process made in a week for a level 1 character.
  
  <edit>
  Forgot to point out, that would only be ~11-12% crit too, also clarified on the time spent thing.
  </edit>
  
  

  Quote from Nui;1209941:

  Now I ask you the same question, Do you even know what an elite hero card is or does?

  Yes, which is why I brought up the fact that an elite hero card is not the same thing as developing a new character from scratch (not by far).
  
  Developing a char from level 1 with nothing invested into skills or stats is what new players WILL do since you CANNOT USE hero cards until you have a char that's 1K on that account, and you cannot use elite hero cards until you have a character that's 2K on that account.
  
  So Elite hero cards are an option that is not available to a new player and does not represent developing a new character from scratch (like a new player has to do) anyways.
• Syliara wrote on 2014-03-26 20:17

  Quote from Rydian;1210044:

  (Will - 10)/10 = Luck contribution.
  
  Even if an elite hero character "only" starts out with 100 Will, that's 9x more than a base char. :P
  
  Also, puppetry skills only give 25 Will and 0 luck when all are R1, which is 2.5% crit.
  
  Critical Hit, Windmill, and Smash DO give a little over 100 will when R1'd though (the rest of the will-giving combat skills are things a newbie puppeteer wouldn't be training normally). But that's 132+(169|177)+183 = 484 (elf) or 492 (human/giant) AP.
  
  Which means at least four rebirth cycles for a new character to get all that AP, and note that new characters cannot get into hardmode missions unless they spend time and AP beforehand ranking up a talent to the gold level.
  
  Meaning the progress made in a week on an Elite Hero character is far above the process made in a week for a level 1 character.
  
  <edit>
  Forgot to point out, that would only be ~11-12% crit too, also clarified on the time spent thing.
  </edit>
  
  Yes, which is why I brought up the fact that an elite hero card is not the same thing as developing a new character from scratch (not by far).
  
  Developing a char from level 1 with nothing invested into skills or stats is what new players WILL do since you CANNOT USE hero cards until you have a char that's 1K on that account, and you cannot use elite hero cards until you have a character that's 2K on that account.
  
  So Elite hero cards are an option that is not available to a new player and does not represent developing a new character from scratch (like a new player has to do) anyways.

  
  
  I know an elite hero card is way ahead in character progression when it comes to making a new character, however my main point was only focusing on the critical boost you get from having a 2k char compared to having a new char. As you stated, I only gained about 10% or so critical rate from ranking skills in close combat which would bring the number I previously had to about 90% critical rate which is still alot for only a week. Not only that but the new character could start out with fighter and gain even more critical rate than I had due to the increased will you get from fighter compared to close combat. While its true that an elite hero card is leaps and bounds ahead of a normal char starting out for most things, when it comes to critical rate it doesnt have much of an increase in comparison which was really my main point.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-26 23:53

  Quote from Nui;1210174:

  I know an elite hero card is way ahead in character progression when it comes to making a new character, however my main point was only focusing on the critical boost you get from having a 2k char compared to having a new char. As you stated, I only gained about 10% or so critical rate from ranking skills in close combat which would bring the number I previously had to about 90% critical rate which is still alot for only a week. Not only that but the new character could start out with fighter and gain even more critical rate than I had due to the increased will you get from fighter compared to close combat. While its true that an elite hero card is leaps and bounds ahead of a normal char starting out for most things, when it comes to critical rate it doesnt have much of an increase in comparison which was really my main point.

  Just to point out...
  
  

  I actually did a character creation and development recently with a giant (albeit was an elite hero but still) and I was able to reach 100% critical in under a week while not going out of my way to increase my critical rate with enchants or skill ranks.

  That's what you said that I was responding to, which is, I think, a ridiculous claim when answering a question on puppetry because it doesn't represent normal development.
• Syliara wrote on 2014-03-27 01:01

  Quote from Rydian;1210301:

  Just to point out...
  
  That's what you said that I was responding to, which is, I think, a ridiculous claim when answering a question on puppetry because it doesn't represent normal development.

  
  
  It was just a comparison from recent previous events I had done. However a new player can reach some pretty high critical rates from gear and enchants alone if they sacrificed the max dmg enchants. I was trying to use my character as a reference to show that it doesn't take much to reach a highish critical rate at this point in the game. If you went out of your way to gain more critical I am sure in maybe 2 weeks you could have probably 100% critical rate with enough attention to enchants and weapons along with certain skill ranks even for a character that wasnt an elite hero. But ofc, you would have to be able to build your character from previous knowledge so thats the main issue you would deal with.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-03-27 02:38

  Quote from Rydian;1210301:

  That's what you said that I was responding to, which is, I think, a ridiculous claim when answering a question on puppetry because it doesn't represent normal development.

  
  
  As a player that have only completed chain mastery out of fighter skills for strength, I'm gonna step in and say Nui is being pretty realist about this.
  You don't need a godly gear to get easy crit. We're not asking for super reforged equipments mostly covered with oblivion. A cheap alternative can be things like vine for head prefix, elegant for gloves suffix, etc. I mean, I don't have many +Will or +Luck skills ranked, and looking at the fact that I fall under 120-130 crit with my gear (and only crit enchants I use are steel needle and elegant, which in general has the same effect as having vine + elegant), I would say investing an upgrade to have more critical is pretty absurd, when damage is clearly the harder factor to get. You can say that you need more crit right now (may be true or not), but either ways, you're going to get out of that zone quickly, hence max damage path being the most efficient.
  
  As for new players, they can still get access to crit through some outdated gears, like Stiff tail cap, which are dirt cheap.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-27 13:46

  Quote from ironwoman;1210366:

  As a player that have only completed chain mastery out of fighter skills for strength, I'm gonna step in and say Nui is being pretty realist about this.
  You don't need a godly gear to get easy crit. We're not asking for super reforged equipments mostly covered with oblivion. A cheap alternative can be things like vine for head prefix, elegant for gloves suffix, etc. I mean, I don't have many +Will or +Luck skills ranked, and looking at the fact that I fall under 120-130 crit with my gear (and only crit enchants I use are steel needle and elegant, which in general has the same effect as having vine + elegant), I would say investing an upgrade to have more critical is pretty absurd, when damage is clearly the harder factor to get. You can say that you need more crit right now (may be true or not), but either ways, you're going to get out of that zone quickly, hence max damage path being the most efficient.
  
  As for new players, they can still get access to crit through some outdated gears, like Stiff tail cap, which are dirt cheap.

  Realistic about there being tons of ways to get crit, yes (titles and secondary titles, prefix/suffix enchants on errythang has options, artisans and more).
  
  Realistic about saying you can start a character and get 100% crit in a week without fighter/merchant, no.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-03-27 15:32

  Quote from Rydian;1210452:

  Realistic about there being tons of ways to get crit, yes (titles and secondary titles, prefix/suffix enchants on errythang has options, artisans and more).
  
  Realistic about saying you can start a character and get 100% crit in a week without fighter/merchant, no.

  
  
  In a week, a player would be able to get that much crit only if they know what they're doing/have experience before.
  
  Otherwise, a month would be a much more realistic answer. And month is still a pretty short time to invest in crit upgrades. Hence the max damage priority.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2014-03-27 16:05

  Quote from Lia;1209329:

  Is there a decidedly "best" upgrade path for demonic illusion control bars?
  
  I was considering mostly 246 (highest damage/highest balance):
  Damage 22~63
  Critical 13%
  Balance 21% + artisan
  
  Or 255 (balanced):
  Damage 22~60
  Critical 19%
  Balance 12% + artisan
  
  I'm not really considering the last, 264 (highest crit/balance) due to the lower max damage I guess.
  Damage 16~54
  Critical 22%
  Balance 21%
  
  I've just finished puppet for utility purposes -- act 6+4 into blaze; occasionally act 7 -- and since the latter two skills ignore prot for crit, upgrading for crit does not seem as important. Maybe I've already answered my own question...
  :gloom3:
  
  (I've read Kyubey's puppetry guide and I'm considering the possibility of using act 1/2 in play but haven't tried yet.)
  
  Any opinions on which upgrade path would be best? I'm leaning toward the first.
  
  Thanks for the help!

  
  
  Critical is a garbage statistic.
  
  The only correct answer to this question is to go with the 246 upgrade path, as it's the most effective end-game. You could opt for the 255 upgrade path but you would be left with a less than optimal weapon (especially considering the ease of selecting upgrades compared to supplementing damage later on with extremely expensive reforges and enchants) which you would end up replacing with a 246 control bar later on. Needless waste of time and effort.
  
  If you're having issues with balance and critical at your stage of character development, use a cheaper upgraded/enchanted weapon until you're able to adopt something you won't come to regret.
• Invisible wrote on 2014-03-28 03:51

  Quote from Rydian;1210452:

  Realistic about there being tons of ways to get crit, yes (titles and secondary titles, prefix/suffix enchants on errythang has options, artisans and more).
  
  Realistic about saying you can start a character and get 100% crit in a week without fighter/merchant, no.

  
  
  Just ranking Control Marionette and either Marionette alone will give you 80 critical. So yes, anyone who can wield a Demonic Control Bar should be set on critical already.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-28 12:39
  263 AP for that, both skills R1, pretty unlikely for a new char to do in a week.
  
  Come on Mabination, learn the difference between what you get at max and what's feasible to accomplish in a timeframe.
• wilson10000 wrote on 2014-03-28 15:15
  To be fair if you are new and want to main puppets, then more critical will help. However we're talking about the Demonic Control bars here. New players will most likely not have master talent puppetry. They would have enough crit by the time they can use Demonic Bars.
  
  On the flip side normal control bar upgrades can depend on the player, Act 1 and 2 skills do not ignore protection. So if a player wants to use those two skills on harder monsters than they should keep high critical with their build.
  
  But in general if you hybrid with puppets, most players just use Act 4, 6, and 7. Thus having more than 30 crit would not matter for any type of monster.
  
  Basically if you want to use Act 1 and 2, have a crit set. You do not need to upgrade demonic bars just for crit.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-03-28 20:36

  Quote from Rydian;1210705:

  263 AP for that, both skills R1, pretty unlikely for a new char to do in a week.
  
  Come on Mabination, learn the difference between what you get at max and what's feasible to accomplish in a timeframe.

  
  
  AP you can get from many quests, as well as the dailies. Plus the rebirthing beginner gets favors quicker gain of APs, so yes, us nationers know that this is possible. Not only possible, but can be practical.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-03-28 23:35

  Quote from ironwoman;1210785:

  AP you can get from many quests, as well as the dailies. Plus the rebirthing beginner gets favors quicker gain of APs, so yes, us nationers know that this is possible. Not only possible, but can be practical.

  100 crit with puppets (not barehanded, thus bonuses) in a week is much more reasonable than some of the other claims and stories I hear on these forums.